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Donegal's Motion Fails

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Replying To MesAmis:  "In fairness though the Donegal motion still would have given Dublin two Super 8 games at home. 1 in Parnell and 1 in Croker.

To be fair to the delegates it's easy enough to see why they'd vote that down, it doesn't make it anymore equal and it decreases revenue.

It was a silly motion.

There should have been a motion to make sure every team that qualifies for the Super 8s gets one game at home, one away and one at neutral venue outside their own county boundaries. It's very hard to argue against a motion like that.

But the Donegal motion made it really easy to vote against as it decreased revenue for nothing."
It didn't matter what way the motion was worded, it was being voted against no matter what!

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 561 - 25/02/2019 20:30:13    2168148

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Replying To petejoeduff:  "Has every single person on this forum got amnesia? Donegal questioned the 'neutral' game (as it was originally framed) last year and were dismissed as it was set in stone for 3 years that it was a 'Croke Park' game. It was a great bait and switch by Padraic Duffy at the time. So they had no choice but to challenge the home game.

Anyway, the decision speaks volumes about the priorities of the GAA. And despite how some of the media would like this to be framed, this is not about Dublin, its about highlighting the seemingly infinite greed of the top brass at the GAA. The fact that 83% voted against the transparency of votes last year also speaks volumes about how the organisation is run"
You're right, I'd forgot that it was set in stone for three years so I suppose that gives the gaa top brass the chance to rectify it next year (assuming super 8s continue though I'm not sure it will). I doubt they have any intention of doing that but they should.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 687 - 25/02/2019 21:33:44    2168179

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Transparency

It would be good to see how each county representative voted and the reasoning behind each vote.

I just turn up to games and support like many if you

The politics of the association baffles me."
Lol . You turn up to matches? Maybe you turn up to a few home games :-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 25/02/2019 21:38:01    2168182

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Just listened to Sean Kelly on the gaa hour and wasn't really disagreeing with the sentiment and then he gets into this patronising, well now if only they had worded it differently sure they might have got it through. If that was the case could he not have leant his considerable expertise to assisting with the wording this year rather than waiting until next year. The whole thing does not sit well. The powers that be in the gaa wanted the status quo to remain this year and that was that.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 687 - 25/02/2019 23:25:31    2168209

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Wexford and Meath will have skin in the game on this issue as will Kildare ironically. If Dublin decline in football and Meath and Kildare win Leinsters and start playing S8's games, i don think its impossible that maybe their home games could be in Croker as well, both used Croke Park regularly when they were going for All Irelands. Wexford to, its not that long ago since they were in a Leinster final in football and they have the pedigree in Hurling too. So i can understand some Leinster counties not backing the motion.

For what its worth i agree with the popular narrative Dublin shouldn't get two games in Croke park. I'm curious to see though will anything be done, to circumvent congress. I mean in the last year Kildare had a go at the administration and garnered public support successfully. Surely the same thing could happen here.

Sadly i think it will die a death now and only come up again during the S8's when some unfortunate county is on a good run and realise there is a disadvantage in their group."
Kildare have already started playing Super 8s games..........and in Newbridge! If Kildare were ever forced to nominate another ground sanity would dictate it to be Portlaoise or Tullamore, not Croke Park, esp in a game against Dublin. Although seeing as we disgracefully voted against the Donegal motion I'm not sure how sane our administrators are.

kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 26/02/2019 02:03:18    2168225

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Donegal wording of the motion could have included the clause that you were only to play 1 of your 3 super 8 games inside your county. But would it have made a difference in the vote? Also, the Parnell park argument that it is a home venue is equally laughable as the argument that croke park is a neutral venue for Dublin. How many of the Dublin team have ever played league or championship games there? It's about as much a home venue to them as it would be for Kildare.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 26/02/2019 09:43:12    2168253

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Replying To kildare73:  "Kildare have already started playing Super 8s games..........and in Newbridge! If Kildare were ever forced to nominate another ground sanity would dictate it to be Portlaoise or Tullamore, not Croke Park, esp in a game against Dublin. Although seeing as we disgracefully voted against the Donegal motion I'm not sure how sane our administrators are."
Fair point, but it is true to say during Kildares most successful years of winning Leinsters and contesting All Irelands and Meaths for that matter they played more of their home championship games in Croke Park then they did in Newbridge or Navan. Unless my memory is completely wrong. I can remember being at second round Leinster games in Croke park for both Kildare and Meath, during those years.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/02/2019 10:36:09    2168267

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Initially I wasn't in agreement with the motion put forward by our county board. The reason being that I thought that games should be won on the field through hard work, tactics and skill. But if the Super 8's concept is to remain then something has to give, Yes the motion wasn't worded correctly and was probably doomed to failure but there is a bigger picture here. We're regularly fed the amateur ethos, the grass roots being the glue that holds the GAA together etc ad nauseum.

The GAA hierarchy must consider the rest of us stupid. The statements post congress the other day were insulting to our intelligence. What I would like to see is a breakdown of Croke Park's finances. How much money is required per annum to keep it maintained and viable? Look we can all deduce that the reasoning behind the motion defeat was financial. If the GAA could come out and say, Look - we need to generate X amount per year from Croke Park to keep the GAA show on the road and illustrate how Dublin playing as many games as possible at HQ is critical to this then fair enough. But we know they won't.

The basic fork in the road is this. Assuming that the GAA is profitable year on year, how much is enough? Is revenue going to dictate the terms over the entire raison d'etre of the GAA? i.e. an amateur organization focused primarily on promoting indigenous Gaelic games and pastimes? Because the way we're going we're losing sight of that and people will begin to turn away.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9115 - 26/02/2019 12:19:15    2168316

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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32:  "Just listened to Sean Kelly on the gaa hour and wasn't really disagreeing with the sentiment and then he gets into this patronising, well now if only they had worded it differently sure they might have got it through. If that was the case could he not have leant his considerable expertise to assisting with the wording this year rather than waiting until next year. The whole thing does not sit well. The powers that be in the gaa wanted the status quo to remain this year and that was that."
Pure plamas on his behalf, probably regretting it now in case it affects him politically. No matter what way that motion was worded, it was doomed to defeat as Croke Park had openly canvassed counties to defeat it. The tone of the language used by Sean Kelly & John Costello has really upset people & led to division. No point being in an Association where an ex President can dismiss so negatively a genuine case of inequity, Kelly is welcome to it.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 26/02/2019 13:48:27    2168355

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Fair point, but it is true to say during Kildares most successful years of winning Leinsters and contesting All Irelands and Meaths for that matter they played more of their home championship games in Croke Park then they did in Newbridge or Navan. Unless my memory is completely wrong. I can remember being at second round Leinster games in Croke park for both Kildare and Meath, during those years."
That was then, a few years ago now. Some of those games we weren't given a choice as games were put together as double headers in Croke Park but the trend lately is to put these games in regional venues and rightly so. And with Dublin so strong in Croke Park I couldn't see the argument for opting to play them there. Not saying we would beat the dubs another venue but makes sense to avoid them in headquarters. As last year proved, Newbridge can hold super 8s games safely so if were to get to them again we would be expecting our home game.

kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 26/02/2019 15:16:33    2168393

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "Pure plamas on his behalf, probably regretting it now in case it affects him politically. No matter what way that motion was worded, it was doomed to defeat as Croke Park had openly canvassed counties to defeat it. The tone of the language used by Sean Kelly & John Costello has really upset people & led to division. No point being in an Association where an ex President can dismiss so negatively a genuine case of inequity, Kelly is welcome to it."
But Donegal's motion took away none of the inequality.

It would have ensured Dublin got 2 home Super 8 fixtures. One in Croker and one in Parnell, what is fairer about that?

All the conspiracy theory stuff is missing the point that it was a silly motion that was going to still give Dublin 2 home Super 8 games.

Everyone is complaining, rightly so, that Dublin have 2 home Super 8 games, and those people are now complaining that this motion, that gives Dublin 2 home Super 8 games, was defeated!

Anyone of 31 counties could have brought a motion that ensures every county in the Super 8s gets one home game, one away game and one neutral game. But not a single county did. That's the problem.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 26/02/2019 16:21:03    2168433

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Replying To MesAmis:  "But Donegal's motion took away none of the inequality.

It would have ensured Dublin got 2 home Super 8 fixtures. One in Croker and one in Parnell, what is fairer about that?

All the conspiracy theory stuff is missing the point that it was a silly motion that was going to still give Dublin 2 home Super 8 games.

Everyone is complaining, rightly so, that Dublin have 2 home Super 8 games, and those people are now complaining that this motion, that gives Dublin 2 home Super 8 games, was defeated!

Anyone of 31 counties could have brought a motion that ensures every county in the Super 8s gets one home game, one away game and one neutral game. But not a single county did. That's the problem."
They couldn't though. As somebody else already pointed out Donegal challenged the 'neutrality' of Croke Park in relation to Dublin last year and were told it is not a neutral game but a Croke Park game. The word 'neutral' is not used in the structure of the Super 8's.

Either way I don't think the wording mattered the GAA wanted a particular answer here and I don't think any motion that took the Dubs out of Croker for either their home or Croke Park fixture was going to be allowed to pass. The GAA were always going to make sure of that by whatever means necessary.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 26/02/2019 18:44:31    2168476

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Replying To MesAmis:  "But Donegal's motion took away none of the inequality.

It would have ensured Dublin got 2 home Super 8 fixtures. One in Croker and one in Parnell, what is fairer about that?

All the conspiracy theory stuff is missing the point that it was a silly motion that was going to still give Dublin 2 home Super 8 games.

Everyone is complaining, rightly so, that Dublin have 2 home Super 8 games, and those people are now complaining that this motion, that gives Dublin 2 home Super 8 games, was defeated!

Anyone of 31 counties could have brought a motion that ensures every county in the Super 8s gets one home game, one away game and one neutral game. But not a single county did. That's the problem."
The point I made is that no matter what way a motion on this was worded, it was destined to be defeated, as the GAA hierarchy did not want it to happen. Dublin is a massive cash cow for the GAA, 35,000 at the game the last night, no other game came near that. The TV rights money is based around them & their games in Croke Park, sponsorship in the overall GAA context & even at county level for Dublin is based on their high profile games at Croke Park. So was this vote which the GAA hierarchy canvassed vigorously against, about the wording of the motion or was it about finance ? I think we all know the answer. Should finance override fairness & equality, No ! This isn't about Jim Gavin & his team who are excellent ambassadors & worthy champions of Gaelic football, this is about the GAA hierarchy not setting a standard of fairness & equality, not only on this matter but also on the distribution of funding for coaching. As for your point about the other 31 counties (+ overseas units) not bringing a motion forward or voting for it, you are correct. However Congress has become a joke, the reason people drift away, parents & players is when they see the Ballymagash type politicos at Congress who couldnt even vote for transparency, people are tiring of this rubbish & watching as their kids don't even have set fixture schedules to play their games. The disconnect is massive, the apathy at club level is massive & the exodus from 16 to 23 is massive. This weekend, highlighted by comments from individuals shows that apathy & disconnect is reaching a tsunami level.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 26/02/2019 18:56:38    2168479

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "Pure plamas on his behalf, probably regretting it now in case it affects him politically. No matter what way that motion was worded, it was doomed to defeat as Croke Park had openly canvassed counties to defeat it. The tone of the language used by Sean Kelly & John Costello has really upset people & led to division. No point being in an Association where an ex President can dismiss so negatively a genuine case of inequity, Kelly is welcome to it."
I fully agree, Uimhir.a.3. I seem to recall that when Kelly was president, he had a major issue with so-called interference by ex-presidents, something that was very evident in his autobiography. It's now well over ten years since he left office and he is constantly telling us how the GAA should be run. The strange thing is, he seems to become more vocal when an election is looming!

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 541 - 26/02/2019 19:47:50    2168487

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "They couldn't though. As somebody else already pointed out Donegal challenged the 'neutrality' of Croke Park in relation to Dublin last year and were told it is not a neutral game but a Croke Park game. The word 'neutral' is not used in the structure of the Super 8's.

Either way I don't think the wording mattered the GAA wanted a particular answer here and I don't think any motion that took the Dubs out of Croker for either their home or Croke Park fixture was going to be allowed to pass. The GAA were always going to make sure of that by whatever means necessary."
They could have brought a motion in that would have taken out the Croke Pk game and replaced it with a neutral game. Seán Kelly has said as much.

Of course the wording mattered. Donegal brought a motion that would have given Dublin 2 home games, just like now! Why do ppl think that would be better than what we have now?

The GAA could still make plenty of revenue off of a neutral or away Dublin game in Clones, Cavan, Castlebay, Galway, Killarney, Limerick, Cork etc etc. So the old grab all shtick doesn't wash either.

This was an outright silly motion.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 26/02/2019 19:54:46    2168490

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "The point I made is that no matter what way a motion on this was worded, it was destined to be defeated, as the GAA hierarchy did not want it to happen. Dublin is a massive cash cow for the GAA, 35,000 at the game the last night, no other game came near that. The TV rights money is based around them & their games in Croke Park, sponsorship in the overall GAA context & even at county level for Dublin is based on their high profile games at Croke Park. So was this vote which the GAA hierarchy canvassed vigorously against, about the wording of the motion or was it about finance ? I think we all know the answer. Should finance override fairness & equality, No ! This isn't about Jim Gavin & his team who are excellent ambassadors & worthy champions of Gaelic football, this is about the GAA hierarchy not setting a standard of fairness & equality, not only on this matter but also on the distribution of funding for coaching. As for your point about the other 31 counties (+ overseas units) not bringing a motion forward or voting for it, you are correct. However Congress has become a joke, the reason people drift away, parents & players is when they see the Ballymagash type politicos at Congress who couldnt even vote for transparency, people are tiring of this rubbish & watching as their kids don't even have set fixture schedules to play their games. The disconnect is massive, the apathy at club level is massive & the exodus from 16 to 23 is massive. This weekend, highlighted by comments from individuals shows that apathy & disconnect is reaching a tsunami level."
But the motion still gave Dublin 2 home games?

Where was the benefit of Donegal's motion?

There was absolutely no benefit to anyone at all! Of course it was defeated. It was silly.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 26/02/2019 19:58:22    2168491

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The problem is Dublin posters and its representatives take this issue as a personal attack on them
If Carlow or Kerry brought in the money like Dublin do they would be treated the same by the GAA.
Thats not Dublins fault.
Not one poster can argue with any credibility that the arrangement between Dublin and Croke park is naturally advantageous for Dublin.
Sure why would costello not do everything he can to keep that arrangement as it is his mandate is Dublin.
But this is just not fair and most fair minded people will acknowledge that regardless of county allegiances.

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 26/02/2019 21:01:11    2168507

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Replying To MesAmis:  "They could have brought a motion in that would have taken out the Croke Pk game and replaced it with a neutral game. Seán Kelly has said as much.

Of course the wording mattered. Donegal brought a motion that would have given Dublin 2 home games, just like now! Why do ppl think that would be better than what we have now?

The GAA could still make plenty of revenue off of a neutral or away Dublin game in Clones, Cavan, Castlebay, Galway, Killarney, Limerick, Cork etc etc. So the old grab all shtick doesn't wash either.

This was an outright silly motion."
And they'd have used the excuse that there is no neutral game, it's one home, one away and on in Croke Park, that's what was agreed until at least the end of the 2020 season. Like I said the 'neutral' aspect was debated in 2018 and that avenue was closed off.

As for making as much money from Clones or Cavan, look at the GAA financial statements, corporate and hospitality income generated in Croker is as important as the gate receipts now. That's the reason they want every game possible played there.

There was no motion that would have taken the Dubs away from Croker for even one game that would have passed I promise you.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 26/02/2019 21:06:21    2168509

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Replying To westkerry:  "The problem is Dublin posters and its representatives take this issue as a personal attack on them
If Carlow or Kerry brought in the money like Dublin do they would be treated the same by the GAA.
Thats not Dublins fault.
Not one poster can argue with any credibility that the arrangement between Dublin and Croke park is naturally advantageous for Dublin.
Sure why would costello not do everything he can to keep that arrangement as it is his mandate is Dublin.
But this is just not fair and most fair minded people will acknowledge that regardless of county allegiances."
I honestly don't think it's about keeping Dublin there to ensure they are winning, they'll beat most teams anywhere regardless. It is down to money pure and simple. A full or nearly full Croke Park generates income that no other ground can match and it's not all about general ticket sales.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 26/02/2019 21:16:50    2168511

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Replying To kildare73:  "That was then, a few years ago now. Some of those games we weren't given a choice as games were put together as double headers in Croke Park but the trend lately is to put these games in regional venues and rightly so. And with Dublin so strong in Croke Park I couldn't see the argument for opting to play them there. Not saying we would beat the dubs another venue but makes sense to avoid them in headquarters. As last year proved, Newbridge can hold super 8s games safely so if were to get to them again we would be expecting our home game."
Well it's speculation on both our behalf's, but the historical precedent is there, which is why I believe a good few Leinster counties voted against. The Newbridge or nowhere thing, was I believe down to the context. Mayo are the second best supported county in the country, they would have brought 10ks to Croke Park and Kildare would have been hugely outnumbered, Kildare had a way better chance in Newbridge and rightly so given the rules backed them up.

Whether that will stay the same way I think remains to be seen. Kildare crowds tend to be a bit boom and bust in my expierence. I've seen them pack Croke Park almost on their own winning Leinster and competing for All Ireland's. Kildare can really mobilize a crowd when the going is good. I even remember the 17 Leinster final, 65k in Croke Park. I happened to be at the following last round qualifier against Armagh (incedently and ironically) in Croke Park, I'd never seen the ground so empty, I just couldn't get over where the crowd had gone in a week.

But as I say when in the mood Kildare can mobilize 250k odd people, Meath Similarly and dominate Croke Park given their population and proximity, they would be mad to vote for a motion that prohibits them from nominating Croke Park as a home venue as would most other Leinster Counties.

You could be right and Kildare could play every home game in Newbridge until the end of time, I don't think so myself, but they would be mad to vote to limit their choice as would some other counties. Like the Mayo game, Kildare will use the context that best suits them and rightly so.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/02/2019 22:11:25    2168520

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