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Replying To GDL: " Replying To Kurt_Angle: "Absolute nonsense! Why would a current All Star and standout player in the Dublin senior team move to:
i) An team playing intermediate football at the time - St Mark's
ii) A team in AFL division 2 at the time - St Mary's
iii) And my personal favourite, a team that didn't exist at the time - TSS
when he could move to one of the county's stronger teams at the time and continue playing at a high level? (P.S. You could have suggested Ballyboden, who are closer than any of your suggestions to Thomas Davis's ground, and were Dublin champions a couple of years previous, though that mightn't have suited your argument). Your original argument suggested PC did something untoward by moving to KC and held it up as an example of something unsavoury (I notice you didn't retract this suggestion, even when advised the grounds on which PC made his move) . I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument." He was not the first player to ever fall out with his club. Everybody knows the big clubs in Dublin actively recruit players. A number of high profile players approached over the years. Always amazed people in Dublin think it is a miracle when a county player turns up on their team....it is a road to nowhere."
You would think any of the displaced throngs would be playing for Dublin clubs, economic migrants would be in the minority in most clubs to be honest, not that their not welcome.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/02/2019 17:45:20
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This whole thread and the premise behind it annoys me but pervades the association.
This idea that players are there to serve clubs. Noelle Healy should go to a club she doesn't want to to make them more competitive.
Who knows exactly her reasoning behind it but let's say it is to get the opportunity to play and win Provincial or All Ireland club well I say fair play to her. She's worked hard enough over the years to get to be capable of playing to that standard she should be allowed to do what she pleases. As should all other players.
Clubs exist for players not the other way around.
It's part of the reason players are lost to the game.
This underlying idea of ownership of a player.
You have an 18-21 year old at a smaller club. If he a average player he probably won't be playing much football just out of minor, certainly not with the senior team. He gets fed up, he maybe lines out for the reserves, it's not taken seriously, the fixtures are called off. It wrecks his head, why would he not go out with the lads on Saturday night he might not play this weekend anyway. His only scheduled game for the next 4 weeks.
Take the other strong u18 to u21. Capable of playing county under21, on an college team, getting made guilty to play for the senior club. All these teams feel like they have a slice of the player. This guy ends up playing too many matches, mainly in sloggy weather. Trains too much, ends up togging out half injured for one of these teams, probably the club because he feels a duty to them. He's injured.
When you put players and their choices as secondary these are what happens. I have seen both those stories play out for more than one individual. I really thinking we're talking both those stories 3 or 4 times within my small Meath club, I'm sure the same story is replicated right across the country.
The GAA needs to be more player driven.
Nobody would be forced to move. Those who think you should be loyal to your home club can stay with them. Those that are looking to move for whatever reason should be allowed to also.
It needs to be more democratic.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 14/02/2019 18:31:52
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Replying To wishfulthinkin: "Would playing and training with better players not push on the half decent players and make them better...decent even?! So your saying Noelle should have to travel from Cork to Dublin to play club football just to accommodate a half decent player in the club she's moving to? What about the club she's leaving...won't that leave the door open for a half decent player or are you only worried about the one in the new club?" I didn't say that noelle shouldn't transfer to a club in cork, I have no problem with people moving club if it's for work reasons or because they moved away for some reason, I have a problem with people moving from a small club to a neighboring big club looking for a bit of glory, I just don't agree with that, I believe your village your town your Parrish is everything and you should play for the team within your town village or Parrish that's all.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/02/2019 19:21:08
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Replying To Whammo86: "This whole thread and the premise behind it annoys me but pervades the association.
This idea that players are there to serve clubs. Noelle Healy should go to a club she doesn't want to to make them more competitive.
Who knows exactly her reasoning behind it but let's say it is to get the opportunity to play and win Provincial or All Ireland club well I say fair play to her. She's worked hard enough over the years to get to be capable of playing to that standard she should be allowed to do what she pleases. As should all other players.
Clubs exist for players not the other way around.
It's part of the reason players are lost to the game.
This underlying idea of ownership of a player.
You have an 18-21 year old at a smaller club. If he a average player he probably won't be playing much football just out of minor, certainly not with the senior team. He gets fed up, he maybe lines out for the reserves, it's not taken seriously, the fixtures are called off. It wrecks his head, why would he not go out with the lads on Saturday night he might not play this weekend anyway. His only scheduled game for the next 4 weeks.
Take the other strong u18 to u21. Capable of playing county under21, on an college team, getting made guilty to play for the senior club. All these teams feel like they have a slice of the player. This guy ends up playing too many matches, mainly in sloggy weather. Trains too much, ends up togging out half injured for one of these teams, probably the club because he feels a duty to them. He's injured.
When you put players and their choices as secondary these are what happens. I have seen both those stories play out for more than one individual. I really thinking we're talking both those stories 3 or 4 times within my small Meath club, I'm sure the same story is replicated right across the country.
The GAA needs to be more player driven.
Nobody would be forced to move. Those who think you should be loyal to your home club can stay with them. Those that are looking to move for whatever reason should be allowed to also.
It needs to be more democratic." Same for county players? Conor McManus join Dublin because he would love to play in an All - Ireland. Peter Harte and Lee Keegan as well because they feel they could improve with the coaching from the Dublin setup and might win a Celtic Cross? Meath team next year made up of all the lads who play O. 'Byrne Cup but aren't quite good enough for championship? I'd say it wouldn't be long before many peoples interest in the sport would start to fall away.
Plenty of player of the year winners and young player of the year winners between hurling and football have been from clubs who aren't senior in their county, I'm not sure it holds many lads back at all playing at a lower level with their club.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 14/02/2019 20:37:25
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "I didn't say that noelle shouldn't transfer to a club in cork, I have no problem with people moving club if it's for work reasons or because they moved away for some reason, I have a problem with people moving from a small club to a neighboring big club looking for a bit of glory, I just don't agree with that, I believe your village your town your Parrish is everything and you should play for the team within your town village or Parrish that's all." You need to understand that others may not share your parochial beliefs. In my own club we have a fantastic young hurler that given proper training could compete at the highest level. But he's stuck in a junior club in a third tier hurling county. Why should he not be able to play for any club/county he wishes?
liam500 (Wicklow) - Posts: 175 - 14/02/2019 20:37:32
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GAA people expect far too much of amateur athletes in my opinion, the amount of traveling people do to play club ball is bananas in terms of work-life balance.
Family and work commitments by far supersede any obligations to one's club. People should be able to play with anyone they please, provided they have an actual connection to the place in question.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 14/02/2019 20:40:42
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Replying To liam500: "You need to understand that others may not share your parochial beliefs. In my own club we have a fantastic young hurler that given proper training could compete at the highest level. But he's stuck in a junior club in a third tier hurling county. Why should he not be able to play for any club/county he wishes?" And what about pride of place? Wicklow have a great goalie mark Jackson I think his name is was unbelievable in last years championship game against Dublin what would you a Wicklow man say if he decided to switch to play with Dublin once Steven Cluxton retires?
How would you feel about that?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/02/2019 22:31:20
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Replying To liam500: "I'm thinking of lots of other sports/activities my kids are involved in. Only the GAA restricts what team you can play for. Bloody archaic is what it is." Not archaic, it's one of the things that makes the GAA special....pride in your club, parish and community wihtoutnthat the GAA is just another sport which I for one am glad it's not......you want to chase some glory then try a sport like soccer
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 15/02/2019 00:07:06
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Soma UK's post sums it up for me, if there is to be a free for all, letting people do what they wish which seems to be the consensus on here, we would have Ciaran Mc Manus/ Lee Keegan et al transferring to Dublin as the example, the same would be replicated at club level, ending up with no allegiance to anyone, let's have franchise teams. As usual it's another mess in the making that hasn't been dealt with to date by the GAA & wont be until the sh#t hits the fan. Many people have witnessed managers coming into clubs from outside, fleece the clubs for a year & jump ship when they win nothing & club members get disllusioned having spent €10,000 of hard sold lotto money to pay for a guy who had no ties to the club, this is what happens in clubs & rips the heart out of them when people don't have that deep bond, attachment, pride of place, identity, the club is just something to serve them & to be used for their benefit. How long do people think club activists will stay lining pitches, selling lotto, cleaning changing rooms, training teams, if that became the norm. People have gone beyond caring any ways now a days as the whole thing is such a farce with many scandalous transfers mostly at local level, that people see the politics, lack of rules & total incompetency around the whole issue, that they have opted out or switched off.
Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 15/02/2019 00:11:45
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Replying To wishfulthinkin: "why shouldn't players be allowed transfer to bigger clubs. It's an amateur sport where they might only get 10 years to play it, so why not be allowed test yourself at the highest possible level and improve as a player by training with and playing with/against the best players. This small club argument is what is holding the GAA back, supporting and proping up small clubs that probably shouldn't be still in existence, making lads/gals feel guilty because they want to better themselves. We aren't living in the mid 20th century anymore..move with the times and maybe the level of clubs and players will improve" I can't believe what you wrote . We should " move with the times". Small clubs "that probably shouldn't still be in existence". When we move with times according to you "maybe the level of clubs and players will improve ". Firstly clubs come from communities. The identity of many, many communities is inextricably linked with their club because the communities sons and daughters play with the club. Every one of those clubs has every right to exist. Clubs foster their young people and nurture their skills and help them to grow as players. Small clubs are a huge part of what makes the GAA what it is. You propose carte blanche in terms of transfers . That is a recipe for the kind of elitism that has destroyed club soccer in Europe . It would destroy the GAA. In club soccer in Europe you have a tiny group of elite clubs that dominate. The Champions League is the plaything of a half dozen to ten elite clubs. Great clubs have been burned off and all bar four leagues are entirely irrelevant when it comes to winning in Europe. What you are proposing shows a complete lack of awareness of what makes the GAA the greatest sporting and community organisation in this country. It has no place in the organisation. What you are proposing would lead to small clubs going out of existence leaving small communities very much worse off.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 15/02/2019 00:59:13
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Replying To Soma: "Same for county players? Conor McManus join Dublin because he would love to play in an All - Ireland. Peter Harte and Lee Keegan as well because they feel they could improve with the coaching from the Dublin setup and might win a Celtic Cross? Meath team next year made up of all the lads who play O. 'Byrne Cup but aren't quite good enough for championship? I'd say it wouldn't be long before many peoples interest in the sport would start to fall away.
Plenty of player of the year winners and young player of the year winners between hurling and football have been from clubs who aren't senior in their county, I'm not sure it holds many lads back at all playing at a lower level with their club." I didn't mention the county game and it is a very different game. It's supposed to be the representative level of the sport. Like international level in other games.
If I'm being honest I think how are games are organised is not fit for purpose for a sport in modern Ireland.
The county system that developed at the genesis of the game was perfect for a poor, rural country where transport costs were expensive.
It helped fuel the growth of the association relative to rugby and soccer.
You are now seeing huge problems in the game brought about by this organisational structure and I think the GAA needs to be more flexible going into the future.
I think the county system. Intercounty competitions and club competitions being organised on a county level need to be reassessed for the health of the future of the game.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 15/02/2019 06:18:33
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I think that it isn't actually that big a problem in the GAA, I think they majority of players actually want to play with their local club and to win something with the lads they have grown up with, played football with since Under 10. Look at the joy of Sean Cavanagh with winning titles with his club team last year.
One thing I do wonder is those who think players should freely be allowed transfer do they feel the club that the player has played with since underage should be compensated? Its an argument I have seen many raise in relation to players being poached by Aussie Rules teams. The local club has put a lot of time into nurturing this young persons talents and for some other club to come and reap the benefits of all that hard work?
Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 15/02/2019 09:28:28
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Replying To Rosineri1: "I think that it isn't actually that big a problem in the GAA, I think they majority of players actually want to play with their local club and to win something with the lads they have grown up with, played football with since Under 10. Look at the joy of Sean Cavanagh with winning titles with his club team last year.
One thing I do wonder is those who think players should freely be allowed transfer do they feel the club that the player has played with since underage should be compensated? Its an argument I have seen many raise in relation to players being poached by Aussie Rules teams. The local club has put a lot of time into nurturing this young persons talents and for some other club to come and reap the benefits of all that hard work?" 100% no compensation
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 15/02/2019 11:43:58
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Replying To Greengrass: "I can't believe what you wrote . We should " move with the times". Small clubs "that probably shouldn't still be in existence". When we move with times according to you "maybe the level of clubs and players will improve ". Firstly clubs come from communities. The identity of many, many communities is inextricably linked with their club because the communities sons and daughters play with the club. Every one of those clubs has every right to exist. Clubs foster their young people and nurture their skills and help them to grow as players. Small clubs are a huge part of what makes the GAA what it is. You propose carte blanche in terms of transfers . That is a recipe for the kind of elitism that has destroyed club soccer in Europe . It would destroy the GAA. In club soccer in Europe you have a tiny group of elite clubs that dominate. The Champions League is the plaything of a half dozen to ten elite clubs. Great clubs have been burned off and all bar four leagues are entirely irrelevant when it comes to winning in Europe. What you are proposing shows a complete lack of awareness of what makes the GAA the greatest sporting and community organisation in this country. It has no place in the organisation. What you are proposing would lead to small clubs going out of existence leaving small communities very much worse off." It wouldn't necessarily.
1 Most people wouldn't leave
2 If transfers did become more common you would see transfers in to smaller clubs as well as out of.
There'd probably just be more clubs because everything would be better run.
The system is there for people not the other way around.
Those of us who support freedom for people to choose their clubs are as much a part of the association as you.
Dublin has no parish rule and it's doing alright.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 15/02/2019 11:47:50
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Replying To GDL: " Replying To Kurt_Angle: "Absolute nonsense! Why would a current All Star and standout player in the Dublin senior team move to:
i) An team playing intermediate football at the time - St Mark's
ii) A team in AFL division 2 at the time - St Mary's
iii) And my personal favourite, a team that didn't exist at the time - TSS
when he could move to one of the county's stronger teams at the time and continue playing at a high level? (P.S. You could have suggested Ballyboden, who are closer than any of your suggestions to Thomas Davis's ground, and were Dublin champions a couple of years previous, though that mightn't have suited your argument). Your original argument suggested PC did something untoward by moving to KC and held it up as an example of something unsavoury (I notice you didn't retract this suggestion, even when advised the grounds on which PC made his move) . I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument." He was not the first player to ever fall out with his club. Everybody knows the big clubs in Dublin actively recruit players. A number of high profile players approached over the years. Always amazed people in Dublin think it is a miracle when a county player turns up on their team....it is a road to nowhere."
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 15/02/2019 11:51:44
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Money involved in a lot of these transfers.
You should play for where you live presently, or where you are originally from. The rules are fairly simple. End of.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 15/02/2019 12:43:51
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Replying To Rosineri1: "I am suggesting more counties set up divisional teams for senior championship" I know divisional sides wouldnt work in Tyrone. Too much history and would have zero support. I dont think it would work in other counties either.
As Kindomboy said - parish rule is there for a reason. You have to think about all clubs, especially smaller rural clubs.
I think it would be a free for all, chaos. You would be getting u10's tapped up by bigger clubs, maybe even ending up going down the road of payments like managers get under the table.
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 15/02/2019 13:24:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "It wouldn't necessarily.
1 Most people wouldn't leave
2 If transfers did become more common you would see transfers in to smaller clubs as well as out of.
There'd probably just be more clubs because everything would be better run.
The system is there for people not the other way around.
Those of us who support freedom for people to choose their clubs are as much a part of the association as you.
Dublin has no parish rule and it's doing alright." Well said.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 15/02/2019 14:35:53
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Replying To Whammo86: "It wouldn't necessarily.
1 Most people wouldn't leave
2 If transfers did become more common you would see transfers in to smaller clubs as well as out of.
There'd probably just be more clubs because everything would be better run.
The system is there for people not the other way around.
Those of us who support freedom for people to choose their clubs are as much a part of the association as you.
Dublin has no parish rule and it's doing alright." I don't know why you think what's OK for the club player wouldn't be OK for the county player, a club player has the honour of representing his club just like a county player has the honour of representing his county.
Anyway, when I played football over here there was a great club scene with 5 different winners in 6 years, usually 6 clubs competitive in senior. In the last 6 years there have been 2 different winners, and 3 clubs playing senior. One club can field 3 different teams, other clubs often cant field 1 team. It's not the strong clubs fault, when lads come over they join the club who win the most, or where their friends play or where more than 12 lads turn up to training. The problem is the other clubs are folding and so they hardly get any worthwhile games. I don't see why that wouldnt be repeated throughout Ireland if lads could transfer to whoever they wanted.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/02/2019 15:51:10
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Replying To Soma: "I don't know why you think what's OK for the club player wouldn't be OK for the county player, a club player has the honour of representing his club just like a county player has the honour of representing his county.
Anyway, when I played football over here there was a great club scene with 5 different winners in 6 years, usually 6 clubs competitive in senior. In the last 6 years there have been 2 different winners, and 3 clubs playing senior. One club can field 3 different teams, other clubs often cant field 1 team. It's not the strong clubs fault, when lads come over they join the club who win the most, or where their friends play or where more than 12 lads turn up to training. The problem is the other clubs are folding and so they hardly get any worthwhile games. I don't see why that wouldnt be repeated throughout Ireland if lads could transfer to whoever they wanted." In Ireland they could very easily play club competitions at a Provincial level.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 15/02/2019 16:28:03
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