National Forum

Under Age Success As A Feeder Team To The Senior Success.

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "And we know who's pushing that narrative Gerry.

Also out of our 2015 team we lost the best young midfielder in the country mark o'connor To Oz and it was in midfield where Galway destroyed us in that opening 10 mins in 2017, We ended up putting a wing forward in there, why ? Only jack o'connor Can answer that I'm afraid, and especially when we had midfielder Robaird o'sé on the bench."
Don't think there is anybody pushing it necessarily but it's something I've read quite a few times and it's a non issue as far as I'm concerned.

Yes Mark was a big loss he was unbelievable at minor I thought at the time he was the best minor I ever saw but Clifford came along soon after. You can't lose lads like that and expect to continue to dominate as you move up. The main thing is several players came through this year and hopefully more to follow.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 861 - 15/09/2018 00:09:51    2141838

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Replying To arock:  "What is underage success? A minor title won't guarantee you a single inter-county player from what is effectively an U17 competition made up of mostly juvenile 16 year olds. If you look at the distance they have traveled to get to Minor title and the distance still to go with all its distractions it is daunting. The top inter county teams don't need to win Minor or U20 titles they just need to ensure every year at least two/three new young faces join the county senior panel and three older ones leave. This is the model of bike Dublin Football use its a cycle some leave some join and it ensures a winning streak. Other counties may wake to it Dublin have been doing it for years and it is reaping rewards. Get your system and structures in place and you will compete fill your panels with talent not the cabinet with essentially useless juvenile trophies."
u20 (formerly u21) is also under age football, it isn't exclusively a minor thread.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3385 - 15/09/2018 01:23:31    2141839

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from the 2013 and 2014 munster minor winning teams -the following started the all ireland final
sean finn, richie english,darragh odonovan, cian lynch, tom morrissey, seamus flanagan
aaron gillane - gillane didnt start

The lads were subs barry nash, pat ryan ,peter casey,
These lads were on the panel - altc, colin ryan, paddy oloughlin, barry murphy

11 of our starters in the all ireland final came from the under 21 winning teams of 2015 and 2017

Finn casey english byrnes, lynch odonovan, , hegarty , tom morrissey, gillane kyle hayes
flanagan was on both panels but didnt start,

13 of the 2015 starting side were in allireland panel

Hannon downes dowling and mulcahy came from munster under 21 winning side in 2011

winning those championships did us world of good

youngmunstersman (Limerick) - Posts: 76 - 19/09/2018 14:54:27    2142711

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Replying To perfect10:  "i was great at underage,then life,ladies and lager took over.
game.set and match."
Well at least you did not squander your money

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 1695 - 19/09/2018 15:07:26    2142716

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Ask most people in Cavan and it'll be a No!!!!
There's so many variables come into it when you talk of a recipe for what works. 9/10 good under age teams give you the ingredients and that's it!!!!!

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 282 - 19/09/2018 15:19:25    2142722

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Replying To theweanling:  "Ask most people in Cavan and it'll be a No!!!!
There's so many variables come into it when you talk of a recipe for what works. 9/10 good under age teams give you the ingredients and that's it!!!!!"
Cavan didn't win the all Ireland u21 so wouldn't take their under age claims too seriously.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3385 - 19/09/2018 15:27:07    2142725

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yet two of those teams beat Donegal in finals. Donegal got Mc Niallais, Mc Hugh, Mc Brearty, Mc Fadden out of those teams. we got no one!!!! so my point stands. Ulster was still success. one all ireland in those 4 years wouldn't have automatically been the magic formula.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 282 - 19/09/2018 17:04:57    2142759

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Replying To youngmunstersman:  "from the 2013 and 2014 munster minor winning teams -the following started the all ireland final
sean finn, richie english,darragh odonovan, cian lynch, tom morrissey, seamus flanagan
aaron gillane - gillane didnt start

The lads were subs barry nash, pat ryan ,peter casey,
These lads were on the panel - altc, colin ryan, paddy oloughlin, barry murphy

11 of our starters in the all ireland final came from the under 21 winning teams of 2015 and 2017

Finn casey english byrnes, lynch odonovan, , hegarty , tom morrissey, gillane kyle hayes
flanagan was on both panels but didnt start,

13 of the 2015 starting side were in allireland panel

Hannon downes dowling and mulcahy came from munster under 21 winning side in 2011

winning those championships did us world of good"
They were fanstaic players with an even better attitude.

The two under 21 All Ireland's definitely helped but Limericks success also came from Harty cup hurling, Fitzgibbon Cup hurling aswel and top underage coaching structures in place in academy's and clubs.

I would say underage success is only a factor in Senior success.

Players can develop during college at Fitzgibbon Cup level that didn't make minor winning teams and become very strong inter county hurlers between 19 and 22.

Lots of factors involved.

Past hurler (None) - Posts: 148 - 19/09/2018 19:02:00    2142779

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Replying To theweanling:  "yet two of those teams beat Donegal in finals. Donegal got Mc Niallais, Mc Hugh, Mc Brearty, Mc Fadden out of those teams. we got no one!!!! so my point stands. Ulster was still success. one all ireland in those 4 years wouldn't have automatically been the magic formula."
McFadden? The backbone of the good under age players on the 2012 team were managed by McGuiness in the 2010 u21 team. He knew many of the others from the club scene and even his playing days. Yes there were a number of top class lads that made the transition but u can thank mcguinness for that. He had links to both generations of players. I don't think cavan could say the same thing. Was the communication good between the u21 and senior ranks? U need that in situ as well as having good under age teams

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3385 - 19/09/2018 19:05:56    2142782

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Replying To Donegalman:  "McFadden? The backbone of the good under age players on the 2012 team were managed by McGuiness in the 2010 u21 team. He knew many of the others from the club scene and even his playing days. Yes there were a number of top class lads that made the transition but u can thank mcguinness for that. He had links to both generations of players. I don't think cavan could say the same thing. Was the communication good between the u21 and senior ranks? U need that in situ as well as having good under age teams"
It's an interesting point, Gavin did similar with the 2014 U21 winning team, I wonder is transitioning the underage players with the manager in to senior a key contributor.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 1853 - 19/09/2018 20:26:03    2142790

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Replying To TheUsername:  "It's an interesting point, Gavin did similar with the 2014 U21 winning team, I wonder is transitioning the underage players with the manager in to senior a key contributor."
I dont think it is either chance nor coincidence. Gavin's record speaks for itself. Mcguinness has an MA in sports science. Transition is the key word. Cavan did not have this at all for whatever reason, most likely old fashioned loyalty to older players as well as the Cavan Gael factor.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3385 - 19/09/2018 21:04:27    2142797

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Replying To Donegalman:  "McFadden? The backbone of the good under age players on the 2012 team were managed by McGuiness in the 2010 u21 team. He knew many of the others from the club scene and even his playing days. Yes there were a number of top class lads that made the transition but u can thank mcguinness for that. He had links to both generations of players. I don't think cavan could say the same thing. Was the communication good between the u21 and senior ranks? U need that in situ as well as having good under age teams"
ok but i'm talking about your current team, its back boned by a group of players that have won no all irelands or ulsters underage. anyway, as for cavan, they may not have won an all ireland in their 4 attempts but you'd imagine there would still be enough to work with. but it hasn't transpired.
your two points speculating as to why some cavan lads didn't make the transition isn't correct. in fact a lot of them young lads were thrown in at the deep end if anything, cavan gaels certainly had nothing to do with it. in my own opinion (and it happens a lot in a success starved county/ club) is that players get wind blown up their ass, they think they have it all done and they just sit back and wait for the trophys to start rolling in, alas it doesn't work like that.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 282 - 20/09/2018 12:15:38    2142872

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Replying To theweanling:  "ok but i'm talking about your current team, its back boned by a group of players that have won no all irelands or ulsters underage. anyway, as for cavan, they may not have won an all ireland in their 4 attempts but you'd imagine there would still be enough to work with. but it hasn't transpired.
your two points speculating as to why some cavan lads didn't make the transition isn't correct. in fact a lot of them young lads were thrown in at the deep end if anything, cavan gaels certainly had nothing to do with it. in my own opinion (and it happens a lot in a success starved county/ club) is that players get wind blown up their ass, they think they have it all done and they just sit back and wait for the trophys to start rolling in, alas it doesn't work like that."
Throwing young lads in at the deep end is exactly why the word TRANSITION is so important in the last number of posts. As is young players believing their own hype and the hype of others a problem down to management of young minds.

Yes that donegal team won nothing at under age. Is this an exception to the rule? In my opinion, yes. But Jim McGuinness made all the difference in transitioning these lads from one stage to the next. I also remember being at the u21 final in 2010 and the donegal lads almost pulled off the ambush, only missing a penalty in the last minute to be denied victory, so there is some form there.

Cavan got the the final the following year and were beaten out the gate. Big difference when you leave the pitch on those terms as opposed to having a man like McGuinness to rebuild and promise success very quickly.

Listing provincial victories as being currency for success is futile in the bigger picture of all Ireland honours. That is why I am not very optimistic about our own prospects for the next few years at senior level. We are talking up our great under age teams, but once they get out of ulster, they fall apart. Even this year, our minors were stuffed and our much lauded u20s were well beaten by derry. (who in turn went on to do very little outside the province).

The one glimmer of hope we have is that Bonner was at the helm with the u21s last year and minors of 2014. So he knows the players well and has personal interest in their ability. Those teams have some form too albeit not all Ireland winning form. So one of the 2 necessary boxes are ticked, but not both. (management and form).

In my opinion, if you don't get to an all Ireland, and win it, and have the right management in situ in the backround to transition between under age and seniors, you have not a hope in hell of winning anything from here on in. Watch Dublin and their nearest rivals in the next decade and see how this pattern will be crucial.

u21 national success plus a successful backroom and managerial team to transition them to seniors = any hope of all Ireland.

I don't believe that Cavan Gaels have helped the Co Cavan cause. They come back to join the county team later than the other clubs. This was the way in the early part of the decade anyway. It cant be good for morale when this happens

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3385 - 20/09/2018 13:11:39    2142885

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The only think underage success breeds is a winning mentality, which I think got Limerick over the line this year. The lads knew how to win, the teams of the 90s did not.
There is also the cocky arrogance as well as belief, if you have beaten Tipp, Clare, Galway, etc at underage you believe you will be able to beat them at adult level.
Lets be honest, you get 2-3 max off any underage team, once in a blue moon you will get more.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 156 - 20/09/2018 14:19:32    2142912

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Their is a clear link between underage success and senior success. Every Senior All Ireland winning team in the last 20 years has had relative success underage. Caveat to that though is that every county that is successful underage has not had senior success. I would argue that under 21 is much more tangible to success than minor, especially in the last few years. Every Senior Team in last 20 years that has won an All Ireland title has won an u21 in the years prior to winning.
Situation is strange in Wexford in the last few years, little to no minor success however the exact same panels tend to go on and compete to a much high level at U21. Team that competed in 2014 U21 were beaten by Laois at minor.
90% of our senior panel have played in an All Ireland u21 Final or Semi Final even though we haven't won a leinster minor in 35 Years!

LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 38 - 21/09/2018 09:53:24    2143108

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Replying To arock:  "What is underage success? A minor title won't guarantee you a single inter-county player from what is effectively an U17 competition made up of mostly juvenile 16 year olds. If you look at the distance they have traveled to get to Minor title and the distance still to go with all its distractions it is daunting. The top inter county teams don't need to win Minor or U20 titles they just need to ensure every year at least two/three new young faces join the county senior panel and three older ones leave. This is the model of bike Dublin Football use its a cycle some leave some join and it ensures a winning streak. Other counties may wake to it Dublin have been doing it for years and it is reaping rewards. Get your system and structures in place and you will compete fill your panels with talent not the cabinet with essentially useless juvenile trophies."
I would agree with you on that. Players develop at different rates as they go from 17 to 21/22. Some players are at their best at 20 while other are at their best at 28/29. Am I correct in saying one of Dublin best players played no underage under 20. An underage team who is beaten in a provincial final may produce 2 or 3 better players than one winning an AI. Even within counties you see teams winning u12/14 but nothing else.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1892 - 21/09/2018 12:08:35    2143147

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