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Don't think there is anybody pushing it necessarily but it's something I've read quite a few times and it's a non issue as far as I'm concerned. Yes Mark was a big loss he was unbelievable at minor I thought at the time he was the best minor I ever saw but Clifford came along soon after. You can't lose lads like that and expect to continue to dominate as you move up. The main thing is several players came through this year and hopefully more to follow. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 15/09/2018 00:09:51 2141838 Link 3 |
u20 (formerly u21) is also under age football, it isn't exclusively a minor thread.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/09/2018 01:23:31 2141839 Link 0 |
from the 2013 and 2014 munster minor winning teams -the following started the all ireland final youngmunstersman (Limerick) - Posts: 80 - 19/09/2018 14:54:27 2142711 Link 0 |
Well at least you did not squander your money
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 19/09/2018 15:07:26 2142716 Link 0 |
Ask most people in Cavan and it'll be a No!!!! theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 19/09/2018 15:19:25 2142722 Link 0 |
Cavan didn't win the all Ireland u21 so wouldn't take their under age claims too seriously.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 19/09/2018 15:27:07 2142725 Link 0 |
yet two of those teams beat Donegal in finals. Donegal got Mc Niallais, Mc Hugh, Mc Brearty, Mc Fadden out of those teams. we got no one!!!! so my point stands. Ulster was still success. one all ireland in those 4 years wouldn't have automatically been the magic formula. theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 19/09/2018 17:04:57 2142759 Link 0 |
They were fanstaic players with an even better attitude. The two under 21 All Ireland's definitely helped but Limericks success also came from Harty cup hurling, Fitzgibbon Cup hurling aswel and top underage coaching structures in place in academy's and clubs. I would say underage success is only a factor in Senior success. Players can develop during college at Fitzgibbon Cup level that didn't make minor winning teams and become very strong inter county hurlers between 19 and 22. Lots of factors involved. Past hurler (None) - Posts: 726 - 19/09/2018 19:02:00 2142779 Link 0 |
McFadden? The backbone of the good under age players on the 2012 team were managed by McGuiness in the 2010 u21 team. He knew many of the others from the club scene and even his playing days. Yes there were a number of top class lads that made the transition but u can thank mcguinness for that. He had links to both generations of players. I don't think cavan could say the same thing. Was the communication good between the u21 and senior ranks? U need that in situ as well as having good under age teams
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 19/09/2018 19:05:56 2142782 Link 0 |
It's an interesting point, Gavin did similar with the 2014 U21 winning team, I wonder is transitioning the underage players with the manager in to senior a key contributor.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 19/09/2018 20:26:03 2142790 Link 3 |
I dont think it is either chance nor coincidence. Gavin's record speaks for itself. Mcguinness has an MA in sports science. Transition is the key word. Cavan did not have this at all for whatever reason, most likely old fashioned loyalty to older players as well as the Cavan Gael factor.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 19/09/2018 21:04:27 2142797 Link 1 |
ok but i'm talking about your current team, its back boned by a group of players that have won no all irelands or ulsters underage. anyway, as for cavan, they may not have won an all ireland in their 4 attempts but you'd imagine there would still be enough to work with. but it hasn't transpired. your two points speculating as to why some cavan lads didn't make the transition isn't correct. in fact a lot of them young lads were thrown in at the deep end if anything, cavan gaels certainly had nothing to do with it. in my own opinion (and it happens a lot in a success starved county/ club) is that players get wind blown up their ass, they think they have it all done and they just sit back and wait for the trophys to start rolling in, alas it doesn't work like that. theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 20/09/2018 12:15:38 2142872 Link 0 |
Throwing young lads in at the deep end is exactly why the word TRANSITION is so important in the last number of posts. As is young players believing their own hype and the hype of others a problem down to management of young minds. Yes that donegal team won nothing at under age. Is this an exception to the rule? In my opinion, yes. But Jim McGuinness made all the difference in transitioning these lads from one stage to the next. I also remember being at the u21 final in 2010 and the donegal lads almost pulled off the ambush, only missing a penalty in the last minute to be denied victory, so there is some form there. Cavan got the the final the following year and were beaten out the gate. Big difference when you leave the pitch on those terms as opposed to having a man like McGuinness to rebuild and promise success very quickly. Listing provincial victories as being currency for success is futile in the bigger picture of all Ireland honours. That is why I am not very optimistic about our own prospects for the next few years at senior level. We are talking up our great under age teams, but once they get out of ulster, they fall apart. Even this year, our minors were stuffed and our much lauded u20s were well beaten by derry. (who in turn went on to do very little outside the province). The one glimmer of hope we have is that Bonner was at the helm with the u21s last year and minors of 2014. So he knows the players well and has personal interest in their ability. Those teams have some form too albeit not all Ireland winning form. So one of the 2 necessary boxes are ticked, but not both. (management and form). In my opinion, if you don't get to an all Ireland, and win it, and have the right management in situ in the backround to transition between under age and seniors, you have not a hope in hell of winning anything from here on in. Watch Dublin and their nearest rivals in the next decade and see how this pattern will be crucial. u21 national success plus a successful backroom and managerial team to transition them to seniors = any hope of all Ireland. I don't believe that Cavan Gaels have helped the Co Cavan cause. They come back to join the county team later than the other clubs. This was the way in the early part of the decade anyway. It cant be good for morale when this happens Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 20/09/2018 13:11:39 2142885 Link 0 |
The only think underage success breeds is a winning mentality, which I think got Limerick over the line this year. The lads knew how to win, the teams of the 90s did not. StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 20/09/2018 14:19:32 2142912 Link 0 |
Their is a clear link between underage success and senior success. Every Senior All Ireland winning team in the last 20 years has had relative success underage. Caveat to that though is that every county that is successful underage has not had senior success. I would argue that under 21 is much more tangible to success than minor, especially in the last few years. Every Senior Team in last 20 years that has won an All Ireland title has won an u21 in the years prior to winning. LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 21/09/2018 09:53:24 2143108 Link 0 |
I would agree with you on that. Players develop at different rates as they go from 17 to 21/22. Some players are at their best at 20 while other are at their best at 28/29. Am I correct in saying one of Dublin best players played no underage under 20. An underage team who is beaten in a provincial final may produce 2 or 3 better players than one winning an AI. Even within counties you see teams winning u12/14 but nothing else.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 21/09/2018 12:08:35 2143147 Link 3 |