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Under Age Success As A Feeder Team To The Senior Success.

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Discuss. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/09/2018 11:12:25 2141652 Link
Discuss. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3361 - 14/09/2018 11:12:25Discuss anything in particular? Have any thoughts yourself? Can vary hugely as being good at 17/18 means nothing towards senior dominance particularly long term dominance DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 14/09/2018 11:29:50 2141656 Link
From what I see players get overtrained for the minors - lose interest and then fall over to obscurity. This is the time they need to apply their skills trade and not run marathons for training sessions WaitingInTheLongGrass (Roscommon) - Posts: 165 - 14/09/2018 12:04:11 2141666 Link
Replying To Donegalman: "Discuss." Well I hope so given the u20 championship.. It's hard to say really you also have to ask how young are we talking as it's baffling that Kerry aren't sweeping up at u21/20 given their minor success, I also hope said success will bring an end to the Dublin machine but time will only tell Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 323 - 14/09/2018 12:04:49 2141668 Link
Replying To DonaldDuck: "Discuss. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3361 - 14/09/2018 11:12:25Discuss anything in particular? Have any thoughts yourself? Can vary hugely as being good at 17/18 means nothing towards senior dominance particularly long term dominance" The specifics are in the title of the thread. Yes I do have an opinion on it. We are seeing the superpowers of football suddenly having consistent under age success. I am wondering if this is coincidental as this focus was not as great in the past. If I were to guess I would say it is part of the biggest picture of building a conveyor belt of senior players for the future. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/09/2018 12:15:33 2141671 Link
From what I see players get overtrained for the minors - lose interest and then fall over to obscurity. This is the time they need to apply their skills trade and not run marathons for training sessions WaitingInTheLongGrass (Roscommon) - Posts: 81 - 14/09/2018 12:04:11 Are they? What do you see as over training and from my experience teams have gone well beyond running high distances in training. DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 14/09/2018 12:18:50 2141673 Link
i was great at underage,then life,ladies and lager took over. game.set and match. perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 14/09/2018 12:33:03 2141680 Link
If you are talking about does it translate across from Juvenile to Senior then not always. Not only is the difference between Minor and Senior massive in regards to physicality, mentality etc but within Juvenile age groups the difference between a team at u12 and the same team at U18 will be huge. Guys who develop earlier tend to stand out more at the earlier age groups but you tend to find a lot of these guys have nearly reached their full size by U16 or Minor and are caught up by the other slower developing players who they perhaps would have brushed aside in their earlier playing days. So you could have teams who weren't on the radar in Juvenile age groups who suddenly have a well developed team at Minor and better so when they move in to Senior and the flip side is the team who were bigger as a unit in the U12/14/16 age who lose that advantage towards adulthood. And that's before you start to factor in other things like player drop off between Juvenile and Senior levels and the effect it has on the strength of what was perhaps a successful team in the Juvenile ages. I suppose you could argue that being successful at Juvenile level consistently could be an advantage in getting numbers out which is the key to success down the line as the more bodies you have at underage then the more players you are likely to have coming through the conveyor belt when you allow for natural wastage. And there is bound to be a psychological advantage if you have players who are conditioned to being successful throughout their Juvenile years. But with it all the real key is firstly getting the numbers at your Senior level with the next thing being make sure you put in the right work with them to get the best out of them - that's more than half the battle. Success is like everything else in life - never a guarantee unless you put in the required work for it and hope that you get the required good fortune as well. Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/09/2018 12:44:50 2141685 Link
Replying To perfect10: "i was great at underage,then life,ladies and lager took over. game.set and match." This was in the past. We are in a different era now. Watch and see. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/09/2018 12:56:00 2141689 Link
Minor no. U20/U21 can be a platform but you need a good transition plan......if not talent can be wasted witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 14/09/2018 15:20:18 2141738 Link
The development of players between minor and u20/21 is the key area in reality. Even more so with minor now at u17. U21/21 is the key area for transition to senior. After 17 kinda have generally stopped growing and have gone on to the second stage of their school careers, college or otherwise. It's the biggest area for drop outs from the gaa and if you can keep them committed up to u20 they are generally better prepared and more committed for the long term. Minor is really now just a stepping stone to u20 and then to senior and not as relevant as it once was. tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1337 - 14/09/2018 15:52:53 2141745 Link
Wow just saw what they are doing in Munster at minor level, absolutely shocking and disgraceful in my opinion. "Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary play each other in a round-robin series, with the top two playing off to decide who joins Kerry and Cork in a separate round-robin series. The top two from this group will contest the Munster final. The new format is heavily stacked in Kerry and Cork's favour as it means Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary would have to play six games just to reach the provincial decider." TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/09/2018 16:27:54 2141761 Link
Wow just saw what they are doing in Munster at minor level, absolutely shocking and disgraceful in my opinion. "Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary play each other in a round-robin series, with the top two playing off to decide who joins Kerry and Cork in a separate round-robin series. The top two from this group will contest the Munster final. The new format is heavily stacked in Kerry and Cork's favour as it means Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary would have to play six games just to reach the provincial decider." TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 1780 - 14/09/2018 16:27:54Disgraceful is a bit much. It provides these counties with way more games to develop players and while it does make it harder for those counties to make provincial final its still quite possible for cork/kerry to lose to one of two qualifiers for next round robin DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 14/09/2018 17:17:08 2141769 Link
Replying To TheUsername: "Wow just saw what they are doing in Munster at minor level, absolutely shocking and disgraceful in my opinion. "Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary play each other in a round-robin series, with the top two playing off to decide who joins Kerry and Cork in a separate round-robin series. The top two from this group will contest the Munster final. The new format is heavily stacked in Kerry and Cork's favour as it means Waterford, Limerick, Clare and Tipperary would have to play six games just to reach the provincial decider."" It's a great idea,it's what we have been looking for in Munster for a long time. cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 775 - 14/09/2018 18:30:15 2141780 Link
Replying To Sweetspot: "Well I hope so given the u20 championship.. It's hard to say really you also have to ask how young are we talking as it's baffling that Kerry aren't sweeping up at u21/20 given their minor success, I also hope said success will bring an end to the Dublin machine but time will only tell" It's not that baffling when you actually look at each minor winning team and follow through to U21/U20. The 2014 minor winning team lost the U21 semi final to Galway. It was a really poor performance but several of those lads have gone in to the senior side and looked very capable. The 2015 team (arguably the best minor side of the 5 winning teams) didn't play at U21/U20 level because of the lost year with the change of grade. The 2016 team again lost the semi final this year but Clifford and O'Shea weren't playing due to the new rules. The 2017/18 teams obviously haven't had their shot yet. So despite winning five minor titles Kerry have only had two attempts at U20/U21 so far, and in one of those attempts they were missing their two best players, one of whom is quite possibly the most influential minor ever. There is a narrative doing the rounds here that the successful minor teams have fallen away once they move up to the next grade but it's really nothing to worry about IMO. They'll be without Clifford again next year at U20, he will still be eligible to play at that level. While I wouldn't go so far as to say the minors were a one man team in 2017 his influence on things was absolutely huge and he won't be easily replaced. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 14/09/2018 18:49:21 2141783 Link
What is underage success? A minor title won't guarantee you a single inter-county player from what is effectively an U17 competition made up of mostly juvenile 16 year olds. If you look at the distance they have traveled to get to Minor title and the distance still to go with all its distractions it is daunting. The top inter county teams don't need to win Minor or U20 titles they just need to ensure every year at least two/three new young faces join the county senior panel and three older ones leave. This is the model of bike Dublin Football use its a cycle some leave some join and it ensures a winning streak. Other counties may wake to it Dublin have been doing it for years and it is reaping rewards. Get your system and structures in place and you will compete fill your panels with talent not the cabinet with essentially useless juvenile trophies. arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 14/09/2018 19:12:35 2141787 Link
Replying To tearintom: "The development of players between minor and u20/21 is the key area in reality. Even more so with minor now at u17. U21/21 is the key area for transition to senior. After 17 kinda have generally stopped growing and have gone on to the second stage of their school careers, college or otherwise. It's the biggest area for drop outs from the gaa and if you can keep them committed up to u20 they are generally better prepared and more committed for the long term. Minor is really now just a stepping stone to u20 and then to senior and not as relevant as it once was." Well of course minor is a stepping stone to U20/21 and that grade is then a stepping stone to senior. The fact remains that minor is a very good indicator as to where a county stands in terms of senior inter county potential. Most players have to evolve through the minor grade to make senior, only 5 players on the Dublin panel have not which speaks volumes. The core of most county's U20/21 team is minor and the core of the senior team is from there. Occassionally players go straight to U20/21 or even to senior but this is rare from what I have heard. Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/09/2018 20:21:30 2141792 Link
Underage success is nice but not the b all. It's about developing players for the senior team. Underage success most definitely does not guarantee senior success but it helps. yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 14/09/2018 20:27:17 2141794 Link
Replying To arock: "What is underage success? A minor title won't guarantee you a single inter-county player from what is effectively an U17 competition made up of mostly juvenile 16 year olds. If you look at the distance they have traveled to get to Minor title and the distance still to go with all its distractions it is daunting. The top inter county teams don't need to win Minor or U20 titles they just need to ensure every year at least two/three new young faces join the county senior panel and three older ones leave. This is the model of bike Dublin Football use its a cycle some leave some join and it ensures a winning streak. Other counties may wake to it Dublin have been doing it for years and it is reaping rewards. Get your system and structures in place and you will compete fill your panels with talent not the cabinet with essentially useless juvenile trophies." I think the medals will mean a lot to the lads that won them so I wouldn't say they are useless but I'd agree with your overall point. Underage titles are an indication of potential rather than a guarantee of future success. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 14/09/2018 21:09:57 2141805 Link
Replying To GeniusGerry: "It's not that baffling when you actually look at each minor winning team and follow through to U21/U20. The 2014 minor winning team lost the U21 semi final to Galway. It was a really poor performance but several of those lads have gone in to the senior side and looked very capable. The 2015 team (arguably the best minor side of the 5 winning teams) didn't play at U21/U20 level because of the lost year with the change of grade. The 2016 team again lost the semi final this year but Clifford and O'Shea weren't playing due to the new rules. The 2017/18 teams obviously haven't had their shot yet. So despite winning five minor titles Kerry have only had two attempts at U20/U21 so far, and in one of those attempts they were missing their two best players, one of whom is quite possibly the most influential minor ever. There is a narrative doing the rounds here that the successful minor teams have fallen away once they move up to the next grade but it's really nothing to worry about IMO. They'll be without Clifford again next year at U20, he will still be eligible to play at that level. While I wouldn't go so far as to say the minors were a one man team in 2017 his influence on things was absolutely huge and he won't be easily replaced." And we know who's pushing that narrative Gerry. Also out of our 2015 team we lost the best young midfielder in the country mark o'connor To Oz and it was in midfield where Galway destroyed us in that opening 10 mins in 2017, We ended up putting a wing forward in there, why ? Only jack o'connor Can answer that I'm afraid, and especially when we had midfielder Robaird o'sé on the bench. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/09/2018 21:16:58 2141808 Link