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Do Away With County Boundaries For The Good Of Hurling?

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http://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/290030 A very good read with some interesting points. Any cross border competition would have to be nationally run though to have any chance of being completed. The Counties named (Roscommon 7 clubs, Longford 3 clubs, Leitrim 3 clubs afaik and Sligo 5 clubs) have teams at a variety of different grades and couldn't be just thrown together. You could add Mayo to that group as they have 4 clubs. That's 22 clubs divided into senior, intermediate and junior. Then there is the sheer distance issue. Pearses Roscommon are just outside Ballinasloe and that's some distance from Sligo town. Imo there is huge merit in the idea but it would have to become the main competition for all counties and not a side show. Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 06/09/2018 16:12:27 2139851 Link
It is a good idea but again it comes down to distance being travelled for training etc and whether the gaa are willing to fund that by means of proper expenses etc. The same argument could be made for an all ulster team competing for the Liam mc Carty with the same travel issues etc. Unfortunately the powers that be are more inclined to ploughing their money elsewhere than at something which may make a big difference for smaller counties trying to grow a minority sport. Where's the possible profits in that? tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1350 - 06/09/2018 16:20:23 2139854 Link
Replying To Tadhgmacda: "http://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/290030 A very good read with some interesting points. Any cross border competition would have to be nationally run though to have any chance of being completed. The Counties named (Roscommon 7 clubs, Longford 3 clubs, Leitrim 3 clubs afaik and Sligo 5 clubs) have teams at a variety of different grades and couldn't be just thrown together. You could add Mayo to that group as they have 4 clubs. That's 22 clubs divided into senior, intermediate and junior. Then there is the sheer distance issue. Pearses Roscommon are just outside Ballinasloe and that's some distance from Sligo town. Imo there is huge merit in the idea but it would have to become the main competition for all counties and not a side show." Tain Ulster League??? Never hear of it? gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 06/09/2018 16:49:13 2139859 Link
Donal Óg Cusack argued that Ulster should be allowed compete for the McCarthy Cup. Cork and Kerry have divisional clubs of non senior clubs in their county championships. There's an argument for something of that sort in the inter county hurling championship. An Ulster XV of those at Ring level and lower. There could also be a Connaught-Leinster XV of those counties at Ring level or lower. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/09/2018 17:46:30 2139883 Link
Ulster council do not care about hurling... they do not promote it, push it, encourage it, facilitate it. Ma All hurling is a waste of time because like anything... if it is not driven properly from the top then it's a mess. How Croke Park have allowed it to get to this state is a complete joke. In_da_ditch (UK) - Posts: 165 - 06/09/2018 18:01:14 2139890 Link
I'd have no issue with an Ulster provincial team in the Liam McCarthy or a rest of Connacht minus Galway. If it helped promote hurling in counties then great. Also, you can guarantee that there are some great hurlers in counties that a known for Football who would go toe to toe with any of the big boys if they had the platform to do it. Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 06/09/2018 18:53:46 2139918 Link
I have being saying this for years and have put counties together that can work geographically. Kerry is the only one that does not work. It could be addressed by having Cork name their first 36 players and allowing Kerry select then. (may be up to six players) Once selected for Kerry the player must stay for three years and then if selected for Cork can return. Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 06/09/2018 19:20:10 2139927 Link
A Connacht team would be interesting. I trunk at club level it could work well but maybe not in an inter provincial level. We are very parochial when it comes to our counties in Ireland. yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 06/09/2018 19:25:00 2139931 Link
I dont think any such proposal should include Kerry. They are nested in the hurling stronghold and its really up to themselves to do something for hurling and they have no excuses. I say that with the utmost respect for the people who genuinely love hurling in North Kerry. ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 06/09/2018 19:33:02 2139934 Link
I don't think this is the same as having an All-Ulster team competing in the Liam McCarthy. In the case of amalgamated club championships, it would still be the same clubs (with the same identity), they'd just be part of a bigger competition. I DID initially think that having an All-Ulster team playing at inter-county level might be worthwhile. But over time, I've thought better of it. I don't think the interest would be there for a provincial team, people wouldn't have the same affiliation for a hurling provincial team, than they would for their county team. Logistically, it would be problematic. Not only when it comes to distances traveled for training etc, but who would be eligible given the status of the county teams at the time. For example, would Derry players being selected to play for an Ulster team in the Liam McCarthy, ultimately hinder the actual Derry team playing in the Christy Ring, and actually damage their chances of ever getting promoted to the Joe McDonagh (if they ever developed to that stage)? Same for Armagh in the Nicky Rackard etc And would an all Ulster team be competitive in the Liam McCarthy, realistically, if it didn't include Antrim players (I assume any team in the McDonagh tier would be excluded)? I think 're-booting' the Ring, Rackards cups etc, and addressing whats happening for these counties at minor and U21 level, competition-wise, would be better. However, I do think there is merit in the amalgamated club championships idea, across the country as a whole where required. But as others said above, you might have to limit the number of counties amalgamated, based on the geographical distances involved. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 06/09/2018 21:07:44 2139952 Link
i suppose meath and westmeath would fit perfectly maybe even kildare as well , the hurling area of meath and westmeath border each other perfectly. you would imagine if they were a unit of there own they would definitly be very competitive with wexford,offaly etc dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 693 - 06/09/2018 21:39:18 2139958 Link
Replying To dickie10: "i suppose meath and westmeath would fit perfectly maybe even kildare as well , the hurling area of meath and westmeath border each other perfectly. you would imagine if they were a unit of there own they would definitly be very competitive with wexford,offaly etc" Fantastic idea by fogarty it makes sense especially the point he makes about it being more attractive for players to play. Couldn't imagine it being too appealing to play hurling in any of the counties named with only a handful of clubs don't know about changing anything here in meath though there are plenty of clubs to run on it's own Northsidegaels (Meath) - Posts: 237 - 06/09/2018 22:08:49 2139975 Link
Replying To gotmilk: "Tain Ulster League??? Never hear of it?" Yes, and it's an absolute mess. CONC and absolute hammerings in sporadic fixtures . did Martin consult with the clubs in these counties he's proposing to amalgamate for club championships before coming out with this? I'd doubt it and he looks to be making the same mistakes that a lot of these hurling Czars from traditional counties make of imposing their world view of hurling on the rest of us. It may grab the odd headline, but ask the teams in Meath or Westmeath if they want to amalgamate to that only one gets a shot at the Leinster club championship rather than two? bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 07/09/2018 14:46:15 2140147 Link
Replying To bricktop: "Yes, and it's an absolute mess. CONC and absolute hammerings in sporadic fixtures . did Martin consult with the clubs in these counties he's proposing to amalgamate for club championships before coming out with this? I'd doubt it and he looks to be making the same mistakes that a lot of these hurling Czars from traditional counties make of imposing their world view of hurling on the rest of us. It may grab the odd headline, but ask the teams in Meath or Westmeath if they want to amalgamate to that only one gets a shot at the Leinster club championship rather than two?" Firstly, you are probably right. He, most likely, didn't consult with anyone before speaking with the media. However he isn't talking about Meath, Westmeath or even Down when he makes his point. He is talking about counties with not enough clubs to sustain a credible program of games based on merit or in some cases at all. Leitrim gaa make no reference to club hurling at all on their official website. There are two Leitrim clubs playing in the Sligo League though namely Carrick Hurling and Cluanin iomaint. Afaik Glencar Manorhamilton also play but where other than Leitrim Senior Championship? How can you have a three team championship and grow hurling. Mayo have 4 adult teams. Tooreen and Ballyhaunis are of Galway intermediate standard. Castlebar are not too far off them and Westport a bit off them again. How can you promote hurling with 4 teams of different standards. Sligo have 7 clubs atm but all afaik are of a lower standard than what's in Mayo. Roscommon also have seven clubs. Four Roads, Pearses , Athleague and Oran would be at a similar standard to Tooreen and Ballyhaunis. ST Dominics and Tremane similar to Castlebar and Roscommon Gaels Similar to Westport. Combined you have 21 clubs. That could be divided into 3 divisions of 7 with 3 home and 3 away games each. These would have to be National Competitions though and the fixtures on forthnighly basis on Saturday evenings or Sundays due to travel. County boards could not be allowed to fix football games etc for those weekends and the county hurling championships would have to remain intact. This is the only way it could be successful. In addition walkovers would have to carry a significant penalty to ensure fixtures are fulfilled. The two biggest barriers to promotion of hurling in counties like the ones named is saturation of the fixture list with football games and lack of merit based competition. The gap between the best and worst in a 7 team championship like Roscommon is the equivalent of senior to junior in Galway. Players and clubs lose interest and give up because they can't compete and football is more attractive because the players can find their own level be it senior, junior etc and a regular program of games that they can be competitive in. That's the challenge that faces Fogarty and hurling promotion and growth. Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 07/09/2018 15:23:24 2140158 Link
Replying To dickie10: "i suppose meath and westmeath would fit perfectly maybe even kildare as well , the hurling area of meath and westmeath border each other perfectly. you would imagine if they were a unit of there own they would definitly be very competitive with wexford,offaly etc" It wouldn't work. Gerry McEntee has burned all the hurleys in Meath and would probably burn all Westmeath's hurleys if they crossed the county divide. Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 07/09/2018 15:38:18 2140167 Link
I think two divisional county teams would suffice. Ulster and Connaught-Leinster. Kerry would have to link up with Connaught-Leinster. The conundrum is fitting the two divisional county teams in after the provincial championships at the first All-Ireland qualifier round. I still think one of the provincial championships should include a 6th team. The bottom team of the 6 team provincial championship should be relegated. The McDonagh Cup winner should be promoted and take the vacant 6th spot of their provincial championship. Arguably then, the two divisional county teams could be made up of the non McCarthy Cup teams. They could take on the 3rd placed teams in the preliminary quarter-final stage. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 07/09/2018 19:03:28 2140218 Link
Replying To ZUL10: "I dont think any such proposal should include Kerry. They are nested in the hurling stronghold and its really up to themselves to do something for hurling and they have no excuses. I say that with the utmost respect for the people who genuinely love hurling in North Kerry." Agree with you about Kerry. I have relations down in North Kerry and Kerry do have the potential to play at a high level. Underage there is about 15 hurling clubs but when it gets to Senior about 9 clubs play in the championship. Kerry would never ever amalgamate with another county as they have one of the most intense, passionate, parochial and colorful hurling championships in Ireland. They get around 5-6k at the final each year. I think they just need to get more of their underage clubs up to Senior level which shouldn't take a life time either. They would have a good 12-14 competitive championship then. They are heading in the right direction for such a football dominated county. Past hurler (None) - Posts: 735 - 07/09/2018 22:40:39 2140263 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I think two divisional county teams would suffice. Ulster and Connaught-Leinster. Kerry would have to link up with Connaught-Leinster. The conundrum is fitting the two divisional county teams in after the provincial championships at the first All-Ireland qualifier round. I still think one of the provincial championships should include a 6th team. The bottom team of the 6 team provincial championship should be relegated. The McDonagh Cup winner should be promoted and take the vacant 6th spot of their provincial championship. Arguably then, the two divisional county teams could be made up of the non McCarthy Cup teams. They could take on the 3rd placed teams in the preliminary quarter-final stage." Do you mean that these divisional county teams made up of Ring/Rackard/Meaghar players? When would they start training as part of those divisional squads? It'd have to be months in advance, realistically, so they'd be training with their county teams, and these divisional teams. And while the county teams are going all out in the Ring, Rackard cups etc, their divisional side players need to be training with the divisional county teams as well, intensively if they want to compete with McCarthy cup teams. And if you're talking about a ConnachtLeinster team, some players would be travelling considerable distances to make a training in any one training location. So they'd be training with 2 inter-county teams, one involving huge travel, and all that on top of any possible club commitments? Not possible. And even after all that, would they even really be competitive? 3rd place teams this year were Limerick and Wexford, who'd been training and playing together as unit since January at the top level, and just come through league and championship groups against the best teams in the country. I'm really not trying to be dismissive, but that doesn't make any sense at all. And its a far cry from what Martin Fogarty suggested, which does have some merit. All it really boils down to, is giving clubs in counties with limited championship options, better options, and access to better competition. It just needs to be done geographically sensibly. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 07/09/2018 23:06:32 2140269 Link
Replying To Kurt_Angle: "It wouldn't work. Gerry McEntee has burned all the hurleys in Meath and would probably burn all Westmeath's hurleys if they crossed the county divide." Didn't do us much good. seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2150 - 08/09/2018 00:05:03 2140275 Link
Replying To Kurt_Angle: "It wouldn't work. Gerry McEntee has burned all the hurleys in Meath and would probably burn all Westmeath's hurleys if they crossed the county divide." Gerry Mcentee should bust all the footballs in Meath instead because they are as far away from top table in football as they are in hurling! Past hurler (None) - Posts: 735 - 08/09/2018 10:03:50 2140289 Link