National Forum

If Monaghan Can Compete, Why Can't The More So Called Traditional Counties

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


There are 29 adult (men) clubs in Co. Monaghan. 10 Senior, 10 Intermediate and 9 junior (who are joined by another 3 reserve teams to make a league of 12)
Scotstown are dominating over the last few years winning the last 3 senior titles in a row and 4 out of the last 5.
The other winners in the last 10 years are Clontibret x 3, Latton x 2 and Ballybay once.

Tim_NicebutDim (Monaghan) - Posts: 262 - 04/09/2018 10:19:40    2139066

Link

I much prefer a thread like this than one begrudging Dublin their success.

Fair dues to Monaghan. If other counties had the counties boards Monaghan have had over the last 15 years they would be in a better place now. I think it is a key building block in any success. You could have good players and management and a weak county board will ruin it.

I'd love to see Monaghan making an All Ireland final while the likes of McManus and Wylie are still involved.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2328 - 04/09/2018 16:56:12    2139196

Link

Replying To derekm58:  "no hes not.. i am, and there is a lot of clubs in monaghan maybe not 50, but hes not from here and it was a decent guess id say!.. only 9 or 10 senior clubs though and out of those 9 or 10 theres only about 3 capabale of winning a county championship"
29 Football clubs - 10 of those are Senior.

I don't what your doing here? Its not even good winding up. Its just daft.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 04/09/2018 21:12:21    2139261

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA should fund advanced sports science for all teams in the All-Ireland championship."
I agree, they should have at least five centres based in key universities around the country with the same access to them for all inter-county teams. This is the sort of thing that ensures its a level the playing field. You have to have the structures in place in the clubs to identify talent in the first place, you need to be working in schools and nurseries, later then stream them into an academy and develop them. A centre of excellence old style is a facility, a centre of excellence new style is a centre were sports science, fitness techniques and facilities and labs are located to develop the players. You also need most importantly the skills coaching. Its all boring hard work, but its paying off for Dublin

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 3849 - 04/09/2018 22:48:03    2139288

Link

Replying To nmsmithy96:  "The lack of a parish rule in Dublin is a factor to their success I think. The fact that Dean Rock for example plays with Ballymun Kickhams (over 20km from his homeplace in Ballymadun) and bypassing North Dublin clubs such as Fingal Ravens, Ballyboughal, St. Margaret's, St. Finian's, Fingallians and Garristown means that the best players end up at the best clubs playing senior football.

This generally doesn't happen in Meath. My view is that there are too many clubs in Meath and players in general are restricted to play for a club in the parish they grew up in. Every tiny crossroads seems to have a club in Meath which quite often leaves a talented player stuck playing Junior club football (sometimes Junior B) for his entire career.

This obviously isn't the only factor into Meath's demise or Dublin's success but just one view I think is interesting to bring up."
That's a very good point

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 13880 - 05/09/2018 07:40:23    2139315

Link

Because Malachy O'Rourke is on a different level to every manager in gaelic football. There is a group: Malachy O'Rourke, Mickey Harte, Jim Gavin, Jack O'Connor and Jim McGuinness and there are the rest. Plain and simple those 5 are on a different planet to everybody else.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2198 - 05/09/2018 07:58:49    2139317

Link

This is my criticism of the Dubs. Its not their team. Their team . The current team along with kerry is the greatest team ever to play. Win 5 in a row and next year and they will be undisputed the greatest team ever. Great team, great players, incredible achievement .

My issue is this mantra that Dublin supporters and ex players keep repeating about other counties.

The Dubs keep saying to other counties. Its your own fault, it your own fault, its your own fault the state in your in. They are right. But when Dublin didnt reach All Ireland final for 16 years the GAA Community did not say it was Dublins fault. The GAA community was very supportive of the Dubs and their plight. The GAA stood by the Dubs in mid 00s and we know what happened next. The Dubs are not responding in the same way to other counties predicament at the moment.

The Dubs have a tabloid simple response. Its an effective response, but its a bogus one. The reasons why county declines is multi layered and complicated.

The Dublin response is look at Mayo , look at Mayo, look at Mayo or look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan, look at Monaghan , look at Monaghan. Why cannot ur county follow their example?

This is a simple and bogus arguement. Its lacks a badic understanding how GAA works how sucess is achieved in GAA. Lets look at Mayo and Monaghan.

Leaving very good players and very good management can anyone give 5 practical things to other counties could do that Mayo and Monaghan have done to be sucessful? Why are counties not copying the Monaghan and Mayo model? What is unique to these counties. What are they doing that other counties are not?

Underage sucess well Galway have had as much underage sucess as Mayo and Cavan have had as much underage sucess as Monaghan . Why did Monaghan win a couple of Ulster titles while Cavan have won 1 in 50 years. Why have Mayo reached 11 All Ireland finals including replays in 25 years and Galway have reached 4 All Ireland finals including replays in the same period. The reasons are multi layered complicated.

There is nothing really different that Monaghan or Mayo doing. The reasons they have sucess are a driving force driving Mayo to all these finals and Monaghan just have great manager and players for the first time in 30 years.

Lets take Mayo. There is no county in Ireland that winning an All Ireland means so much. Every man woman child, every player , manager in Mayo is almost on yearly crusade , an obssesion to win Sam. So many times you hear a Mayo person saying, before I die I hope to see Mayo win Sam. This driving force to end the famine and break the curse is driving Mayo to finals. It is admirable. But no other county has these driving forces. If Mayo had won Sam in 2012 or 13. I believe they wouldnt have reached final in 16 or 17. This driving force has become a counties obsession.

Monaghan had a great team in 1930s , late 70s early 80s and this decade. Monaghan have a great team every 30 or 40 years. Most counties with small.population have a very good every 30 or 40 years. You cannot buy players. You have to wait for a golden generation to appear. Its just in Monaghans football cycle; they have a brillant team now. It is very possible Monaghan wouldnt have another great team for another 30 or 40 years.

Yes they had a good minor team this year. So maybe it can continue for a couple more years. But to expect Monaghan to be top 5 or 6 team in 2020s 2030s 2040s every decade on is not credible. More then likely Monaghan could decline for 20 or 30 years or more. This has happened with every county with small population who have had sucess. Every decade there is a county with asmall.population that has sucess. This is down allot of the time to that county producing a golden generation and its the part of their cycle to be sucessful.

Here are examples
Longford were the county with Small population who suceeded in the 60s. Longford won leinster title and national league division 1 title. At the end of 60s longford had one of the best teams in the country. Its only in this decade and in some of 00s we have seen Longford have sucess again.

In 70s and early 80s Offaly were the county with small population small resources who suceeded. Offaly won 3 All Irelands and 7 leinsters in this period. Offaly have declined and never recovered.


In 90s leitrim and Clare won provicial titles and reached All Ireland semi finals. Again counties with less resources. Both have declined with Clare having the best since 92 at the moment.

In 00s Fermanagh reached All Ireland semi final. A county with small resources and pop. In 00s Westmeath won their first and only leinster title. Another example

In this decade Monaghan won Ulster titles and reached semi final. Another example of a county with small population suceeding.
Its basically cyclical. Counties with smaller population and resources produce their best teams every 30 or 40 years. And every decade there is a smaller county that suceeds.

Thats what is happening in Monaghan. Excellent players, excellent manager. Everything has come together for Monaghan in this decade the same way it came together for smaller counties like longford in 60s , Offaly in 70s and 80s , leitrim and Clare in 90s and Fermanagh and Westmeath in 00s.
So that is what is happening in Mayo and Monaghan.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 528 - 07/09/2018 21:44:42    2140244

Link

For me many people dont understand how sucess is gained in gaa or sucess in GAA overall. I think the reason for this is 90s and early 00s. This was extraordinary competitive time gaa in hurling and football. You had 8 different counties win senior All Ireland in 1990s compared to 3 now eg in 90s Cork Meath Down Derry Donegal Kerry Dublin and Galway won Sam in 90s only Dublin Donegal and kerry have in this decade. And in leinster between 95 and 04 you had 5 different leinster winners to 1 winner in last 8 years eg Dublin won leinster in 95, Meath in 96, Offaly in 97 , kildare in 98, Meath in 99, kildare in 00, Meath in 01, Dublin in 02, Laois in 03 and Westmeath in 04. Compare that run to the last 8 years in leinster.

This was unprecedented. The only other time you had so many different winners in leinster or football in general was 1940s and 1950s. In leinster in 40s and 50s , Meath Dublin kildare Wexford Carlow Laois louth all won leinster. In football Roscommon Mayo kerry Dublin Meath Galway Cork Cavan Louth all won senior All-Irelands. The 90s early 00s and 40s and 50s were the most competitive periods in football. Outside that you had less competitive eras. The 90s has left this idea that many counties are sucessful when the fact is many many great football counties are starved of even provicial sucess and only handful of counties have had consistent sucess
.

For since Independence the most sucessful counties consistently with strong teams in each decade 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s 00 were kerry Dublin Cork Galway Meath. In last 30 years Mayo have replaced Galway ( with more consistent sucess eg 9 All Ireland senior finals to Galways 3. Of course Galway have two wins, but Mayo have been more consistent). While in last 20 years Tyrone have replaced Meath ( with 4 All Ireland final appearances to Meaths 1 since 2000). Donegal have also became a very recent football superpower in last 25 years . Beginning in 1992 the year they had their first ever championship win in Croker. In the early days Cavan had huge sucess up to 50s while Down had sporadic sucess eg 60s and 90s. And other counties had one off All Ireland sucess eg Wexford 14 to 18, kildare 20s, Roscommon 40s, Louth 50s, Offaly 71 to 82, Derry 90s.

So you have counties that have had huge sucess then declined eg Cavan 1900 to 1950 Meath 1930 to 2010 Galway 1900 to 2001.
Counties that had one off sucess eg Wexford, Kildare 20s, Roscommon 40s, louth 50s Offaly 70s And never won an All Ireland since.

The beloe stats will tell a better picture

Limerick have not won a Munster title or an All Ireland football title in 120 years
Waterford have not won Munster title or an All Ireland football title in 120 years
Tippearey havent won Munster title in 80 years
Clare have 1 senior Munster football title in 90 years
Roscommon havent won an All Ireland in 70 years and played in 1 All-Ireland senior final in 50 years
Mayo have not won an All Ireland in 70 years
Galway have won 2 All Irelands in 50 years ( Kerry Dublin Cork Meath Down Tyrone and Offaly have won more in same period)
Sligo have won 2 Connacht titles in 120 years
leitrim have won 1 Connacht title in 90 years
Antrim havent won an Ulster title in 70 years
Cavan have not won All Ireland in 70 years and have 1 Ulster title in 50 years
Fermanagh have never won an Ulster title
Monaghan have never won an All Ireland title
Down have not won an Ulster title in 25 years
Wexford have not won a leinster title in 70 years and an All Ireland in 100 years
Carlow have not won an leinster title in 70 years
Laois have won 1 leinater title in 60 years
Longford havent won leinster title in 50 years
Westmeath have won 1 leinster title in 120 years
Offaly have 1 leinster title in 35 years and havent won an All Ireland in 35 years
Wicklow have never won leinster title
Kildare have won 2 leinster titles in 60 years and havent won an All Ireland in 90 years
Louth havent won a leinster or an All Ireland title in 60 years.

So basically the vast majority of counties have had little or no sucess for generations eg 60 or 70 years. Others have had All Ireland sucess when Ireland had just become independent country after civil war, while others had sucess only 30 or 40 years after the famine.

This idea of a competitive championship is a myth. This idea that counties should be doing better is bogus. Because the vast majority of counties have never had real sucess, been starved of sucess for decades. When people say counties should be doing better. Do they not realise that football you cannot buy players. You have to wait for a golden generation and great manager to appear on the scene. That might happen every 30 or 40 years or every 60 or 70 years. Of course kerry and Dublin always had strong teams for different reasons. So did Cork and Galway. The reasons why counties are sucessful are easy to explain eg great players great manager underage sucess. The reasons why a county is unsuccessful is multi layered and very complicated. The reasons why a county declines is multi layered and very complicated.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 528 - 07/09/2018 21:57:44    2140246

Link

Replying To Furlong1949:  "For me many people dont understand how sucess is gained in gaa or sucess in GAA overall. I think the reason for this is 90s and early 00s. This was extraordinary competitive time gaa in hurling and football. You had 8 different counties win senior All Ireland in 1990s compared to 3 now eg in 90s Cork Meath Down Derry Donegal Kerry Dublin and Galway won Sam in 90s only Dublin Donegal and kerry have in this decade. And in leinster between 95 and 04 you had 5 different leinster winners to 1 winner in last 8 years eg Dublin won leinster in 95, Meath in 96, Offaly in 97 , kildare in 98, Meath in 99, kildare in 00, Meath in 01, Dublin in 02, Laois in 03 and Westmeath in 04. Compare that run to the last 8 years in leinster.

This was unprecedented. The only other time you had so many different winners in leinster or football in general was 1940s and 1950s. In leinster in 40s and 50s , Meath Dublin kildare Wexford Carlow Laois louth all won leinster. In football Roscommon Mayo kerry Dublin Meath Galway Cork Cavan Louth all won senior All-Irelands. The 90s early 00s and 40s and 50s were the most competitive periods in football. Outside that you had less competitive eras. The 90s has left this idea that many counties are sucessful when the fact is many many great football counties are starved of even provicial sucess and only handful of counties have had consistent sucess
.

For since Independence the most sucessful counties consistently with strong teams in each decade 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s 00 were kerry Dublin Cork Galway Meath. In last 30 years Mayo have replaced Galway ( with more consistent sucess eg 9 All Ireland senior finals to Galways 3. Of course Galway have two wins, but Mayo have been more consistent). While in last 20 years Tyrone have replaced Meath ( with 4 All Ireland final appearances to Meaths 1 since 2000). Donegal have also became a very recent football superpower in last 25 years . Beginning in 1992 the year they had their first ever championship win in Croker. In the early days Cavan had huge sucess up to 50s while Down had sporadic sucess eg 60s and 90s. And other counties had one off All Ireland sucess eg Wexford 14 to 18, kildare 20s, Roscommon 40s, Louth 50s, Offaly 71 to 82, Derry 90s.

So you have counties that have had huge sucess then declined eg Cavan 1900 to 1950 Meath 1930 to 2010 Galway 1900 to 2001.
Counties that had one off sucess eg Wexford, Kildare 20s, Roscommon 40s, louth 50s Offaly 70s And never won an All Ireland since.

The beloe stats will tell a better picture

Limerick have not won a Munster title or an All Ireland football title in 120 years
Waterford have not won Munster title or an All Ireland football title in 120 years
Tippearey havent won Munster title in 80 years
Clare have 1 senior Munster football title in 90 years
Roscommon havent won an All Ireland in 70 years and played in 1 All-Ireland senior final in 50 years
Mayo have not won an All Ireland in 70 years
Galway have won 2 All Irelands in 50 years ( Kerry Dublin Cork Meath Down Tyrone and Offaly have won more in same period)
Sligo have won 2 Connacht titles in 120 years
leitrim have won 1 Connacht title in 90 years
Antrim havent won an Ulster title in 70 years
Cavan have not won All Ireland in 70 years and have 1 Ulster title in 50 years
Fermanagh have never won an Ulster title
Monaghan have never won an All Ireland title
Down have not won an Ulster title in 25 years
Wexford have not won a leinster title in 70 years and an All Ireland in 100 years
Carlow have not won an leinster title in 70 years
Laois have won 1 leinater title in 60 years
Longford havent won leinster title in 50 years
Westmeath have won 1 leinster title in 120 years
Offaly have 1 leinster title in 35 years and havent won an All Ireland in 35 years
Wicklow have never won leinster title
Kildare have won 2 leinster titles in 60 years and havent won an All Ireland in 90 years
Louth havent won a leinster or an All Ireland title in 60 years.

So basically the vast majority of counties have had little or no sucess for generations eg 60 or 70 years. Others have had All Ireland sucess when Ireland had just become independent country after civil war, while others had sucess only 30 or 40 years after the famine.

This idea of a competitive championship is a myth. This idea that counties should be doing better is bogus. Because the vast majority of counties have never had real sucess, been starved of sucess for decades. When people say counties should be doing better. Do they not realise that football you cannot buy players. You have to wait for a golden generation and great manager to appear on the scene. That might happen every 30 or 40 years or every 60 or 70 years. Of course kerry and Dublin always had strong teams for different reasons. So did Cork and Galway. The reasons why counties are sucessful are easy to explain eg great players great manager underage sucess. The reasons why a county is unsuccessful is multi layered and very complicated. The reasons why a county declines is multi layered and very complicated."
thanks for that well thought put and researched article ( although some stats are slightly inaccurate... of course I am only focusing on Cavan as that is the one I know the history of... but I suppose if Cavan is slightly wrong then maybe we can assume that they are all slightly wrong). The main gist of the post is correct. Only Kerry,Dublin,Cork,Galway and Meath have been consistent in winning in every decade. I would not say that Cavan only won up until 1950 as the won another all-Ireland in 1952. The also won Ulster in 1967 and 1969. but since then there has only been one Ulster victory in 1997. and no Ulster final appearance since 2001 I believe. I dont know if anyone has league records. when did the leagues start ? . it would be interesting to compare league with championship. No one seems able to explain why Kerry have been so successful for so long. People have said that it was due to the easy passage every year to the Munster final. They could keep momentum going year on year knowing that a munster final was a given whereas other counties (apart from Cork) could not do this . But that does not explain their phenominal success at all-Ireland level. Cavan won 37 or 39 Ulster finals up to 1969 yet had only 5 all-Irelands to show for it. So it must have been fairly easy for Cavan to reach an Ulster final in those days yet when they got to the semi-final or final they nearly always failed. The other thing to note about Dublin,Cork and Galway is the size of population (player-wise) that they had to choose from. I suppose too success breeds success but what happened Wexford after their 4-in-row and what happened my county.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5086 - 08/09/2018 17:21:17    2140361

Link

Replying To s goldrick:  "thanks for that well thought put and researched article ( although some stats are slightly inaccurate... of course I am only focusing on Cavan as that is the one I know the history of... but I suppose if Cavan is slightly wrong then maybe we can assume that they are all slightly wrong). The main gist of the post is correct. Only Kerry,Dublin,Cork,Galway and Meath have been consistent in winning in every decade. I would not say that Cavan only won up until 1950 as the won another all-Ireland in 1952. The also won Ulster in 1967 and 1969. but since then there has only been one Ulster victory in 1997. and no Ulster final appearance since 2001 I believe. I dont know if anyone has league records. when did the leagues start ? . it would be interesting to compare league with championship. No one seems able to explain why Kerry have been so successful for so long. People have said that it was due to the easy passage every year to the Munster final. They could keep momentum going year on year knowing that a munster final was a given whereas other counties (apart from Cork) could not do this . But that does not explain their phenominal success at all-Ireland level. Cavan won 37 or 39 Ulster finals up to 1969 yet had only 5 all-Irelands to show for it. So it must have been fairly easy for Cavan to reach an Ulster final in those days yet when they got to the semi-final or final they nearly always failed. The other thing to note about Dublin,Cork and Galway is the size of population (player-wise) that they had to choose from. I suppose too success breeds success but what happened Wexford after their 4-in-row and what happened my county."
Thanks S Goldrik.
1 Kerrys sucess is down to one serious reason. The list below explains. Sean Murphy Mick Dwyer Mick O Connell Mickey Sheedy Paudi O Se Jack O Se Pat Spillane Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Marc O Se Tomas O Se Colm Cooper Declan Sullivan David Clifford. Kerry seem to produce extraordinary talented gaelic footballers. There are many other reasons of course.
2 Cavan your own county u r a bit hard on. Yes 37 Ulster titles and 5 All-Irelands seems a poor return. But the 5 All-Irelands were won in a over 20 year period. Along with Meath 80s 90s , Wexford 1914-18 and Galway 56 to 66. Cavans sucess in the 30s 40s and early 50s is one of the most sucessful periods any county has had outside Dublin and kerry.
3 Yes population has a role. No county has won All Ireland with a population under 100000 since Offaly in 1982. And Cavan population has decreased from 40s and 50s. I cud be wrong there.
But big population gurantees nothing . look at Wicklow ( No leinster title) Antrim ( I know half the population not into GAA) Limerick ( No football title in 120 years, 1 hurling All Ireland in 80 years before this year) Kildare ( 1956 to 1997) Dublin ( Up to 2011) , population doesnt gurantee sucess also.
4 Why a county declines is very hard to explain. But the similarities between Meath and Cavan are stricking.
Both are from same area eg North leinster / mid Ulster. Meath replaced Cavan as the Superpower in this region.
Cavan were sucessful from 1900 to 1970. A 70 year period. Meath were successful from 1930 to 2010. A 80 year period.
Cavan won 5 All Irelands in 19 years. Meath won 4 All Irelands in 14 years.
Cavan had a good team the decade after last All Ireland win. In 60s Cavan had a very good team. Only for Down they would have probaly won All Ireland.
Meath had a good team in the decadwle after last All Ireland win. In 00s Meath had a very good team 07 to 10. And if Boylan stayed I believe Meath would have won the All Ireland in 2010 with a forward line of Geraghty Two Brays Sheridan Ward Farrell Byrne O Rourke .
Cavan declined massively after 1970. Meath have declined massively after 2010. Of course I hope Meath bounce back. But for me Meath were the heirs of Cavan football. Both counties overachieved for decades and took on the superpowers of football . But Meath could take the same path of Cavan. Why counties decline, I could give 40 reasons why Meath have declined and not one mention of Dublin. But getting back up there again to the top of the football table is very hard.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 528 - 08/09/2018 22:48:00    2140411

Link

Replying To Furlong1949:  "Thanks S Goldrik.
1 Kerrys sucess is down to one serious reason. The list below explains. Sean Murphy Mick Dwyer Mick O Connell Mickey Sheedy Paudi O Se Jack O Se Pat Spillane Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Marc O Se Tomas O Se Colm Cooper Declan Sullivan David Clifford. Kerry seem to produce extraordinary talented gaelic footballers. There are many other reasons of course.
2 Cavan your own county u r a bit hard on. Yes 37 Ulster titles and 5 All-Irelands seems a poor return. But the 5 All-Irelands were won in a over 20 year period. Along with Meath 80s 90s , Wexford 1914-18 and Galway 56 to 66. Cavans sucess in the 30s 40s and early 50s is one of the most sucessful periods any county has had outside Dublin and kerry.
3 Yes population has a role. No county has won All Ireland with a population under 100000 since Offaly in 1982. And Cavan population has decreased from 40s and 50s. I cud be wrong there.
But big population gurantees nothing . look at Wicklow ( No leinster title) Antrim ( I know half the population not into GAA) Limerick ( No football title in 120 years, 1 hurling All Ireland in 80 years before this year) Kildare ( 1956 to 1997) Dublin ( Up to 2011) , population doesnt gurantee sucess also.
4 Why a county declines is very hard to explain. But the similarities between Meath and Cavan are stricking.
Both are from same area eg North leinster / mid Ulster. Meath replaced Cavan as the Superpower in this region.
Cavan were sucessful from 1900 to 1970. A 70 year period. Meath were successful from 1930 to 2010. A 80 year period.
Cavan won 5 All Irelands in 19 years. Meath won 4 All Irelands in 14 years.
Cavan had a good team the decade after last All Ireland win. In 60s Cavan had a very good team. Only for Down they would have probaly won All Ireland.
Meath had a good team in the decadwle after last All Ireland win. In 00s Meath had a very good team 07 to 10. And if Boylan stayed I believe Meath would have won the All Ireland in 2010 with a forward line of Geraghty Two Brays Sheridan Ward Farrell Byrne O Rourke .
Cavan declined massively after 1970. Meath have declined massively after 2010. Of course I hope Meath bounce back. But for me Meath were the heirs of Cavan football. Both counties overachieved for decades and took on the superpowers of football . But Meath could take the same path of Cavan. Why counties decline, I could give 40 reasons why Meath have declined and not one mention of Dublin. But getting back up there again to the top of the football table is very hard."
good stuff furlong1949. thanks for that.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5086 - 14/09/2018 17:15:37    2141768

Link