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In my opinion, A huge part of it comes down to ..Mayo's inability/reluctance to transition/evolve the panel considering how long theyre on the road, and the resulting baggage their previous failures
I thought about this in the immediate days after their defeat to Kildare on Saturday and done a bit of research. 9 Of the starting XV in the All Ireland final defeat against Donegal in 2012, started against Kildare last weekend. Andy Moran likely would've started the final in 2012 too had he been fit. That's two thirds of a team. A team that has played a staggering 23 championship games, in the past 3 years alone.
If you compare that to Dublin and Kerry, who have been successful/remained competitive while evolving and going through periods of mini transition, the contrast is clear to see. 7 of the starters for Dublin in the All Ireland final just 3 years ago against Kerry have either left, or haven't started in this years championship (McCaffrey, O'Sullivan, O'Carroll, Bastick, Connolly, Flynn, B.Brogan). Incredibly, Only 5 of Kerrys starting XV in that same final, started against Cork in their most recent Championship (Crowley, Murphy, Moran, O'Donoghue, Geaney).
Mayo have had ample opportunity to find new faces over the last few years in the league but they still rely heavily on the older guard whereas Dublin and Kerry for the most part are able to bring these lads in, They have a nice blend of youth and experience. When you have that many miles in the legs, how do you expect to keep on going to the well year in year out, especially this year though, with more games and a quicker turnover between games.
Not only do Mayo have more miles in the legs than any intercounty team, they also have more scars. Whatever about failure driving you on, These guys have tonnes of hurt following them around.
2/3rds of the starting team on Saturday where there when they lost the final to Donegal in 2012, When they lost to the Dubs in the final in 2013, Lost to Kerry after throwing away a 5pt lead in the semi in 14, Lost after a replay by 7 to the Dubs in 15, and the finals of 16 and 17. That's incredible heartache. A lot of those games they where in cruise control, And should have won, but the lack of experience to see out these games cost them dearly. Dublin and Kerry used their experience and know how to do what they had to do, by hook or by crook. Im not saying they didn't have the bottle, but when push came to shove, the more experienced teams, the teams whove been there and done it, didn't and don't panic.
So, Mayo with that panel will never win an all Ireland and unless they start to integrate some fresh blood to the starting XV and allow the more experienced lads a role whereby they come from the bench to impact game as oppose to starting them and bring inferior/less experienced players on when the game is in the melting pot, they will continue to work hard, never say, but ultimately fall on their sword. They cant be scared of change, Donegal are doing it. Dublin and Kerry have done it over a number of years while remaining incredibly strong, It wasn't all that long ago Mayo where winning Minor all Irelands and Mayo club football is fairly strong.
They need to go into a year, with relatively low expectations too. The Mayo fans are brilliant, But the furore around Mayo for sam year in year out only adds to the pressure and expectancy which, on a Mayo team with miles in the legs and previous baggage can only hinder rather than help preperations…
Thoughts ?
waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 04/07/2018 21:12:21
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1 problem are there new players to be able to do this.
I agree though, expectations should be lower.
A few of the very oldest players need to be phased out. They'd have to be careful though about not going crazy and ripping it all up to start again.
The gamble of seeing will the likes of Andy Moran have enough in him to get them over the line has failed. There are still some top players with a lot of miles on the clock that started young and have still a number of years left to give.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 04/07/2018 21:32:32
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Replying To Whammo86: "1 problem are there new players to be able to do this.
I agree though, expectations should be lower.
A few of the very oldest players need to be phased out. They'd have to be careful though about not going crazy and ripping it all up to start again.
The gamble of seeing will the likes of Andy Moran have enough in him to get them over the line has failed. There are still some top players with a lot of miles on the clock that started young and have still a number of years left to give." The ridiculously high expectations definitely don't help.
It only adds enormous pressure on the shoulders of the players whove been through the mill in the past 6 years. And as I said because of there now being more games, If Mayo don't win Connacht next year, with the majority of those players being a year older, and after another league campaign, a league that's only getting more and more competitive, Then they will keep going out in the qualifiers or fail to make the semi finals , I just don't see how they muster up the energy especially when teams like Donegal, Dublin, Kerry and Galway all have much younger panels who are already out performing Mayo.
waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 04/07/2018 21:53:37
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Yes I think they've definitely missed the boat, a great side will be remembered as gallant losers. They were a g** hair off us over the years, a bounce of a ball if you will. So that either says that they were a superb outfit or that Dublin aren't as great as most say.
Take your pick, personally I've no opinion on that, all I can see is trophies :D
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 04/07/2018 22:09:31
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Replying To realdub: "Yes I think they've definitely missed the boat, a great side will be remembered as gallant losers. They were a g** hair off us over the years, a bounce of a ball if you will. So that either says that they were a superb outfit or that Dublin aren't as great as most say.
Take your pick, personally I've no opinion on that, all I can see is trophies :D" Part of what makes this Dublin team great is that in those games against Mayo, I don't remember us outplaying them, but we beat them every time every when we play poorly. That's another thing that has made great that people over look, the ability to win these tight games against ravenous opponents, At the end of the day whether we are as good as people think or not, don't care, as you said, weve won 5 all Irelands in 7 years, they've won none. Whatever Ger Gilroy and Sean Cavanagh might say, in 40 years time people wont be talking about Mayo losing replays and close games between 2012-2017, They will remember Dublin lifting the trophies, that's what matters
but lets not turn this into a Dublin thread, keep it on topic :)
waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 04/07/2018 22:24:19
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Replying To waynoI: "In my opinion, A huge part of it comes down to ..Mayo's inability/reluctance to transition/evolve the panel considering how long theyre on the road, and the resulting baggage their previous failures
I thought about this in the immediate days after their defeat to Kildare on Saturday and done a bit of research. 9 Of the starting XV in the All Ireland final defeat against Donegal in 2012, started against Kildare last weekend. Andy Moran likely would've started the final in 2012 too had he been fit. That's two thirds of a team. A team that has played a staggering 23 championship games, in the past 3 years alone.
If you compare that to Dublin and Kerry, who have been successful/remained competitive while evolving and going through periods of mini transition, the contrast is clear to see. 7 of the starters for Dublin in the All Ireland final just 3 years ago against Kerry have either left, or haven't started in this years championship (McCaffrey, O'Sullivan, O'Carroll, Bastick, Connolly, Flynn, B.Brogan). Incredibly, Only 5 of Kerrys starting XV in that same final, started against Cork in their most recent Championship (Crowley, Murphy, Moran, O'Donoghue, Geaney).
Mayo have had ample opportunity to find new faces over the last few years in the league but they still rely heavily on the older guard whereas Dublin and Kerry for the most part are able to bring these lads in, They have a nice blend of youth and experience. When you have that many miles in the legs, how do you expect to keep on going to the well year in year out, especially this year though, with more games and a quicker turnover between games.
Not only do Mayo have more miles in the legs than any intercounty team, they also have more scars. Whatever about failure driving you on, These guys have tonnes of hurt following them around.
2/3rds of the starting team on Saturday where there when they lost the final to Donegal in 2012, When they lost to the Dubs in the final in 2013, Lost to Kerry after throwing away a 5pt lead in the semi in 14, Lost after a replay by 7 to the Dubs in 15, and the finals of 16 and 17. That's incredible heartache. A lot of those games they where in cruise control, And should have won, but the lack of experience to see out these games cost them dearly. Dublin and Kerry used their experience and know how to do what they had to do, by hook or by crook. Im not saying they didn't have the bottle, but when push came to shove, the more experienced teams, the teams whove been there and done it, didn't and don't panic.
So, Mayo with that panel will never win an all Ireland and unless they start to integrate some fresh blood to the starting XV and allow the more experienced lads a role whereby they come from the bench to impact game as oppose to starting them and bring inferior/less experienced players on when the game is in the melting pot, they will continue to work hard, never say, but ultimately fall on their sword. They cant be scared of change, Donegal are doing it. Dublin and Kerry have done it over a number of years while remaining incredibly strong, It wasn't all that long ago Mayo where winning Minor all Irelands and Mayo club football is fairly strong.
They need to go into a year, with relatively low expectations too. The Mayo fans are brilliant, But the furore around Mayo for sam year in year out only adds to the pressure and expectancy which, on a Mayo team with miles in the legs and previous baggage can only hinder rather than help preperations…
Thoughts ?" Bit of an obsession here with Mayo. They tried so many times and failed. A great team. But the World moves on and Mayo people know this more than any one and know that they have to go back to the well and develop new talent for their Senior squad going forward. So don't be kicking them when they are down. A fine bunch of players and fans and it's a pity they just didn't follow it through and land Sam.
moros (Roscommon) - Posts: 1080 - 04/07/2018 22:26:10
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Replying To waynoI: "In my opinion, A huge part of it comes down to ..Mayo's inability/reluctance to transition/evolve the panel considering how long theyre on the road, and the resulting baggage their previous failures
I thought about this in the immediate days after their defeat to Kildare on Saturday and done a bit of research. 9 Of the starting XV in the All Ireland final defeat against Donegal in 2012, started against Kildare last weekend. Andy Moran likely would've started the final in 2012 too had he been fit. That's two thirds of a team. A team that has played a staggering 23 championship games, in the past 3 years alone.
If you compare that to Dublin and Kerry, who have been successful/remained competitive while evolving and going through periods of mini transition, the contrast is clear to see. 7 of the starters for Dublin in the All Ireland final just 3 years ago against Kerry have either left, or haven't started in this years championship (McCaffrey, O'Sullivan, O'Carroll, Bastick, Connolly, Flynn, B.Brogan). Incredibly, Only 5 of Kerrys starting XV in that same final, started against Cork in their most recent Championship (Crowley, Murphy, Moran, O'Donoghue, Geaney).
Mayo have had ample opportunity to find new faces over the last few years in the league but they still rely heavily on the older guard whereas Dublin and Kerry for the most part are able to bring these lads in, They have a nice blend of youth and experience. When you have that many miles in the legs, how do you expect to keep on going to the well year in year out, especially this year though, with more games and a quicker turnover between games.
Not only do Mayo have more miles in the legs than any intercounty team, they also have more scars. Whatever about failure driving you on, These guys have tonnes of hurt following them around.
2/3rds of the starting team on Saturday where there when they lost the final to Donegal in 2012, When they lost to the Dubs in the final in 2013, Lost to Kerry after throwing away a 5pt lead in the semi in 14, Lost after a replay by 7 to the Dubs in 15, and the finals of 16 and 17. That's incredible heartache. A lot of those games they where in cruise control, And should have won, but the lack of experience to see out these games cost them dearly. Dublin and Kerry used their experience and know how to do what they had to do, by hook or by crook. Im not saying they didn't have the bottle, but when push came to shove, the more experienced teams, the teams whove been there and done it, didn't and don't panic.
So, Mayo with that panel will never win an all Ireland and unless they start to integrate some fresh blood to the starting XV and allow the more experienced lads a role whereby they come from the bench to impact game as oppose to starting them and bring inferior/less experienced players on when the game is in the melting pot, they will continue to work hard, never say, but ultimately fall on their sword. They cant be scared of change, Donegal are doing it. Dublin and Kerry have done it over a number of years while remaining incredibly strong, It wasn't all that long ago Mayo where winning Minor all Irelands and Mayo club football is fairly strong.
They need to go into a year, with relatively low expectations too. The Mayo fans are brilliant, But the furore around Mayo for sam year in year out only adds to the pressure and expectancy which, on a Mayo team with miles in the legs and previous baggage can only hinder rather than help preperations…
Thoughts ?" You're pretty much stating the obvious. But they also need to get more out of the players they will have left after a few retirements. Give forwards a chance to improve from play and fail in FBD, League, challenge matches before they can improve. Too many forwards scores coming from two men when the others are not encouraged to kick scores, We can say 'we don't have the forwards' when we give the forwards we have a decent chance of proving themselves, While that's going on we have to keep looking for new intercounty players, not just coming through from underage. Might be a few talented players who previously could not commit and would relish the challenge.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7365 - 05/07/2018 00:37:47
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Replying To waynoI: "In my opinion, A huge part of it comes down to ..Mayo's inability/reluctance to transition/evolve the panel considering how long theyre on the road, and the resulting baggage their previous failures
I thought about this in the immediate days after their defeat to Kildare on Saturday and done a bit of research. 9 Of the starting XV in the All Ireland final defeat against Donegal in 2012, started against Kildare last weekend. Andy Moran likely would've started the final in 2012 too had he been fit. That's two thirds of a team. A team that has played a staggering 23 championship games, in the past 3 years alone.
If you compare that to Dublin and Kerry, who have been successful/remained competitive while evolving and going through periods of mini transition, the contrast is clear to see. 7 of the starters for Dublin in the All Ireland final just 3 years ago against Kerry have either left, or haven't started in this years championship (McCaffrey, O'Sullivan, O'Carroll, Bastick, Connolly, Flynn, B.Brogan). Incredibly, Only 5 of Kerrys starting XV in that same final, started against Cork in their most recent Championship (Crowley, Murphy, Moran, O'Donoghue, Geaney).
Mayo have had ample opportunity to find new faces over the last few years in the league but they still rely heavily on the older guard whereas Dublin and Kerry for the most part are able to bring these lads in, They have a nice blend of youth and experience. When you have that many miles in the legs, how do you expect to keep on going to the well year in year out, especially this year though, with more games and a quicker turnover between games.
Not only do Mayo have more miles in the legs than any intercounty team, they also have more scars. Whatever about failure driving you on, These guys have tonnes of hurt following them around.
2/3rds of the starting team on Saturday where there when they lost the final to Donegal in 2012, When they lost to the Dubs in the final in 2013, Lost to Kerry after throwing away a 5pt lead in the semi in 14, Lost after a replay by 7 to the Dubs in 15, and the finals of 16 and 17. That's incredible heartache. A lot of those games they where in cruise control, And should have won, but the lack of experience to see out these games cost them dearly. Dublin and Kerry used their experience and know how to do what they had to do, by hook or by crook. Im not saying they didn't have the bottle, but when push came to shove, the more experienced teams, the teams whove been there and done it, didn't and don't panic.
So, Mayo with that panel will never win an all Ireland and unless they start to integrate some fresh blood to the starting XV and allow the more experienced lads a role whereby they come from the bench to impact game as oppose to starting them and bring inferior/less experienced players on when the game is in the melting pot, they will continue to work hard, never say, but ultimately fall on their sword. They cant be scared of change, Donegal are doing it. Dublin and Kerry have done it over a number of years while remaining incredibly strong, It wasn't all that long ago Mayo where winning Minor all Irelands and Mayo club football is fairly strong.
They need to go into a year, with relatively low expectations too. The Mayo fans are brilliant, But the furore around Mayo for sam year in year out only adds to the pressure and expectancy which, on a Mayo team with miles in the legs and previous baggage can only hinder rather than help preperations…
Thoughts ?" Heres my thoughts ..
Another dub whos obsessed with Mayo.
We are out of the championship nearly a week now and here you are starting new threads..
Their are multiple threads about Mayo and Rochford
Vishred (Mayo) - Posts: 303 - 05/07/2018 02:16:09
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All they needed really a couple of years ago was maybe 2 top end forwards. Easier said than done I know.
Now they need those still plus a number of other positions have more in the legs and could find it hard to go again.
If anything expectations should be lower now but in reality with Galway getting stronger it'll be difficult to see them win Connacht at this stage. Roscommon there too are no slouches so all in all they are falling back into the pack.
Don't think it'll happen for them with the group that were so close.
Andy Moran may decide it's time also which is another loss.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 05/07/2018 08:15:53
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Mayo are a good team but they have always ran into a team just too good for them. Over the last six years Donegal, Kerry and Dublin are the victors and that's the history will record it. I always thought the jinx since 1951 should have been broken in both 1989 and 1996 when they had Cork and Meath really on the ropes and managed to eventually lose both.
Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 05/07/2018 08:49:49
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New blood and ideas needed for sure wayno. A rest and refocus may be just what's needed.
I don't get the. Orion that exceptions were unrealistic or too high...when your reaching the last 4 or final every year, there is no reason why you shouldn't have notions of winning the All Ireland.
That's gone now for this panel and will haunt us but we have been here before. There will likely be 2/3 years of rebuilding but no reason why we can't challenge again in the nit too distant future.
Our u20s play Derry in the semi final so hopefully a few players can be brought in. I'm hearing there will be a few retirements at senior level and we will possibly have a change in management.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11237 - 05/07/2018 09:03:57
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Is anyone else sick to their teeth of hearing about Mayo. I for one am delighted Kildare beat them. Better them go out now than get to yet ANOTHER final and miss out on the top prize and have to bare witness to the 'Oh we put it up to Dublin' ' We deserve to win' 'The only team capable of giving Dublin a game' etc etc.
Bottom line is Mayo are the Spurs of the GAA world. What good is it saying oh we were the only team to put it up to Dublin in All Ireland finals and the likes? Simply put, they are not good enough! If they were they would have won an AI by now. If they 'deserved' to win one by now, they would have.
I am not disputing that they are a top quality side and have had some great players well worth their salt over the number of years on the road. Now however, I think it is time for this Mayo panel to regroup and who knows down the line once this Dublin teams dominance starts to dwindle, if the right plans and players are put through the ranks in Mayo, maybe they will turn out to be GENUINE contenders to the throne!
LongfordSham (Longford) - Posts: 106 - 05/07/2018 10:24:51
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Im not sure what talent is there/coming through. Mow with my wind up hat left to one side ive asked Mayo lads for example, is there a better no.3 in the county aside from Ger Caff....with mixed reaction but majority reckon there isn't. Ive also asked are there better players in the county than whats on the panel and bar one or two names theres not a huge difference to whats there.
In a county as big as Mayo, with as many clubs and football predominately the main sport, I just cant fathom this. I know when Galway were poor people said the same thing i.e the size of the county and the majority of clubs but hurling/football basically separates the county in half and take Corofin out of it as they skew the picture and that's really whats left....is it the same in Mayo? Whats the story like?
The_DOC (Galway) - Posts: 709 - 05/07/2018 10:55:09
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Good post Wayno. I don't think anyone can argue the points you've laid out there. I think my biggest concern for Mayo would be where exactly is the young talent going to come from. Sure they have some young players but are they up to the required standard? Let's take Loftus as an example, heralded as the bright young hope of the forward line over the past couple of years yet he has by and large been held in reserve come championship time. One thing Mayo have never had over the past 6 years is any element of surprise whatsoever. In terms of preparation let's say for Dublin ahead of a big game against Mayo they typically know exactly who they will be lining up against and exactly who the 3 or 4 subs to be brought on will be. Facing Dublin or Kerry over the years both counties have always had the potential to mix it up a bit. We saw the impact of Costello two years ago in the final when he came on for example. In last year's final Dublin brought on Flynn, Brogan, Connolly, McManamon, Scully and Costello. O'Gara somewhat surprisingly started the game and although didn't really work it was just an example of another option Dublin had and forced Mayo to think about another threat. Mayo that day brought on Diarmuid O'Connor who is a fine young player. In addition they brought on Coen and Loftus who are both kind of unproven at senior level, Danny Kirby who admittedly I don't know too much (another sign perhaps) and finally David Drake and Ger Cafferkey neither of which I rate at all.
The above is simply to point out that Mayo although being able to field a very strong starting 15 and one that has come very close to Dublin, they have had little or nothing in reserve when it really mattered. This is also where Kerry have struggled in recent times but seems they are turning that corner now by bringing through a few very good young lads. I haven't heard much about what's coming through in Mayo but they have no other choice now but to start giving regular action to their younger players throughout the league but they also need to start them in the championship next year too.
This whole thread isn't an obsession with Mayo but merely looking at things in the cold light of day and because Mayo have become one of the most fascinating topics of discussion as they have never won an All Ireland. Just like teams and individuals who have never captured the top honour in other codes of sport.
Finally I've left the most important point I want to make to the end. Mayo need to get rid of Rochford and get a new manager in with new ideas. I don't know what it is about him but I think he is a pure spoofer. He like the players will also have plenty scars and baggage from the past couple of years so I'd like to see them get someone new in who wants to make wholesale changes and someone who has no sentiment towards dropping any of the old guard who don't want to walk on their own. It's a ruthless approach but I think it's needed.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 05/07/2018 11:03:20
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Mayo forum.
Wests_Awake (Galway) - Posts: 877 - 05/07/2018 11:31:37
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Replying To waynoI: "The ridiculously high expectations definitely don't help.
It only adds enormous pressure on the shoulders of the players whove been through the mill in the past 6 years. And as I said because of there now being more games, If Mayo don't win Connacht next year, with the majority of those players being a year older, and after another league campaign, a league that's only getting more and more competitive, Then they will keep going out in the qualifiers or fail to make the semi finals , I just don't see how they muster up the energy especially when teams like Donegal, Dublin, Kerry and Galway all have much younger panels who are already out performing Mayo." We'll all be a year older next year WaynoI :-)
dubdec99 (Dublin) - Posts: 180 - 05/07/2018 12:31:48
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Replying To LongfordSham: "Is anyone else sick to their teeth of hearing about Mayo. I for one am delighted Kildare beat them. Better them go out now than get to yet ANOTHER final and miss out on the top prize and have to bare witness to the 'Oh we put it up to Dublin' ' We deserve to win' 'The only team capable of giving Dublin a game' etc etc.
Bottom line is Mayo are the Spurs of the GAA world. What good is it saying oh we were the only team to put it up to Dublin in All Ireland finals and the likes? Simply put, they are not good enough! If they were they would have won an AI by now. If they 'deserved' to win one by now, they would have.
I am not disputing that they are a top quality side and have had some great players well worth their salt over the number of years on the road. Now however, I think it is time for this Mayo panel to regroup and who knows down the line once this Dublin teams dominance starts to dwindle, if the right plans and players are put through the ranks in Mayo, maybe they will turn out to be GENUINE contenders to the throne!" Good comparison with Spurs, Andy being our Harry Kane. Mike Ashley is our main sponsor now, gulp!
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7365 - 05/07/2018 12:36:11
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Mayo are a fine team but lack bottle. Its best they do no compete at the top level until they grow a pair. I would say Dublin have as many recent all Irelands as they do because they kept meeting Mayo in the late stages.
cacsmckilly (Tyrone) - Posts: 1294 - 05/07/2018 12:56:19
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Replying To Wests_Awake: "Mayo forum." Maybe you should tell that to the Galway footballers homepage who keep having a pop at mayo...even the great Padraig Joyce had to post a slab down to the Galway fans on it over the weekend.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11237 - 05/07/2018 13:36:44
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Replying To waynoI: "Part of what makes this Dublin team great is that in those games against Mayo, I don't remember us outplaying them, but we beat them every time every when we play poorly. That's another thing that has made great that people over look, the ability to win these tight games against ravenous opponents, At the end of the day whether we are as good as people think or not, don't care, as you said, weve won 5 all Irelands in 7 years, they've won none. Whatever Ger Gilroy and Sean Cavanagh might say, in 40 years time people wont be talking about Mayo losing replays and close games between 2012-2017, They will remember Dublin lifting the trophies, that's what matters
but lets not turn this into a Dublin thread, keep it on topic :)" so why are you prattling on about dublin then?
mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 05/07/2018 17:45:37
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