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How Will The Football Championship Be Tiered By 2021?

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Replying To Ban:  "I'd more or less copy what they do in English soccer. League is King

The FA Cup would be our Provincial Championship

I'd have 3 leagues. The top four sides in Division one of our league would go into the All-Ireland Semi-finals.

I know this way all teams cant have a go at winning Sam but maybe, just maybe teams like me own Westmeath are probably closer to winning the Grand National at the moment and working their way up the leagues would be healthier for players and supporters.
It would also give players a defined season and run properly, like in England with International breaks, we could have club breaks to keep those poor devils interested."
Dingle for example take part in our County Championship. They also take part in the West Kerry Championship.

If the appetite will be there to separate the provincial championships from the All-Ireland championship, I would agree with it but only if the majority want it.

I would say that the league more or less as is should be retained. The provincial championships should come next. The advantage of progression in the provincial championships would be more game time ahead of the All-Ireland championships.

The structure of an All-Ireland championship separate from the provincial championships is anyone's guess? It'll be a matter for GAA HQ and the GAA family through congress to sort out the minute details with various lobbying and suggestions no doubt coming from all quarters!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 16/06/2018 09:05:57    2112042

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Hopefully it won't be tiered, teams in div3 and div4 would be insane to agree to being cut adrift, which is what a tiered championship would do. There's no quick or easy fix to our championship structure, hammerings happen, they've always happened and always will happen no matter what we do.

But we have a tiered competition already = the League, so why create another one?

Personally I would scrap the pre-league competitions, retain the provincials (but remove them from the championship) and create a championship with a world cup format. 3 group games each, one home, one away and one neutral, top 2 teams qualify for last 16, provincial champions are guaranteed top seed no matter what their NFL status, use the league to seed the rest, simples and it includes everybody.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7925 - 16/06/2018 15:05:36    2112110

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Replying To Htaem:  "Hopefully it won't be tiered, teams in div3 and div4 would be insane to agree to being cut adrift, which is what a tiered championship would do. There's no quick or easy fix to our championship structure, hammerings happen, they've always happened and always will happen no matter what we do.

But we have a tiered competition already = the League, so why create another one?

Personally I would scrap the pre-league competitions, retain the provincials (but remove them from the championship) and create a championship with a world cup format. 3 group games each, one home, one away and one neutral, top 2 teams qualify for last 16, provincial champions are guaranteed top seed no matter what their NFL status, use the league to seed the rest, simples and it includes everybody."
But you see that promotes deadwood. There's no incentive for lazy county boards to get their structures right and have ambition.

Some fear provincial groups would be bad news for so-called weaker counties. If counties don't want a tiered system, they should embrace provincial groups.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 16/06/2018 16:04:25    2112123

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Replying To legendzxix:  "But you see that promotes deadwood. There's no incentive for lazy county boards to get their structures right and have ambition.

Some fear provincial groups would be bad news for so-called weaker counties. If counties don't want a tiered system, they should embrace provincial groups."
In fairness I don't think it promotes deadwood, lazy county boards are very much an internal problem that counties must face themselves, I think the championship structure is irrelevant to a deadwood setup. In anycase I would argue that cutting weaker counties adrift into a B championship is likely to do more harm than good as it would be harder to raise interest and promote the games.

Provincial groups could be considered as an option, I certainly wouldn't dismiss that suggestion, it would retain a lot of local derbies which is good.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7925 - 16/06/2018 16:35:44    2112136

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think the answer for football is to play the league and Provincial championships in parallel.

Then finish with a simpler knockout All Ireland based on seedings created by a mix of league and championship.

Roughly it'd be

Round 1 Division 3 v Division 4
Round 2 Division 2 v winner round 1
Round 3 Division 1 v winner round 2

I'd have a division 3/4 team that makes a Provincial final get a bye to round 2 replacing the lowest rated division 2 team.

I'd have Provincial champions receive a bye to round 3, replacing lowest rated division 1 team.

Something similar could work in hurling with divisions of 10,10,8 and 7. Plus Provincial championships going back to knockout. (Might not happen because of the success of this years group format, although having the groups based on Provinces causes problems, with a 10 team league top tier not associated with Provincial competition you lose some of the current imbalances).

There'd be a 16 team All Ireland with 4 byes to round 2 and 4 byes to round 3.

Provincial champions get a bye to round 3
Provincial runners up get a bye to round 2.

Remaining byes filled in bye league positions.

Ulster championship could get a spot in a 16 team All Ireland plus a previous seasons Tier 2 championship winner."
Yes, that's neat and should be supportable - keeps NFL and Provs relevant and intact while making the AIC fair.

My '2+6' has similaries, linking Provs and AIC, with Prov Champs rewarded with a 'double chance' to get to the AI QFs and with all 32 getting a 3-match minimum (incl at least 1 Prov game):

24 not in Prov Finals to Rd 1 (8 groups of 3, once).
4 Prov Final losers and Rd 1 top 2 x8 to Rd 2.
2 Prov Champs Playoff losers and 10 Rd 2 to Rd 3.
2 unbeaten Prov Champs and 6 Rd 3 to AI QFs (rd4)

I link the NFL via the season long 12-match season-long 2x16 Conferences (top 6 in each to 12 -team KO AIC).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1312 - 16/06/2018 16:49:36    2112142

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What is wrong with giving all a chance at Sam and having some play for a Tier 2 as well ?
1) Play Prov KO like now, 4 winners to AI Sam KO Last 16.
2) Super 18 (recent NFL top 14, 2 Div 3 promoted and 2 prior year Tier 2 POSe Cup Finalists) played in parallel - drawn to 6 Inter Prov groups of 3 (playing once).
Top 2 in each group join 4 Prov Champs in AI Last 16 (byes to QFs for gaining 2 berths).
No dead rubbers in group play if 1st match loser plays again in the 3rd group match.
3) Other 14 - play for Tier 2 POSC with 4 x 3 groups and 1 two-legged pairing.
3 best 2nds from 4x3 join 5 group winners in POSe KO QFs, followed by SFs and Final.
Two Finalists to Super 18 the following year (effectively, the 2nd chance route in the Race for Sam), while all 14 still pursue Sam via Provs.
While it's desirable not to cut the weaker teams adrift, perhaps it's best they work for something tangible as well = Tier 2 and a Super 18 berth.

With the GPA 8 groups of 4 - I would tweak it a little to avoid Divs 1 v 4 mismatches.
Draw a PAIR of Div 1 OR a PAIR of Div 4 teams, along with one Div 2 and one Div 3 team to each group.
After all play 3 matches - the Top 2 from the 4 strong groups earn a bye to the AI Last 16 from among the 24 (8x top 3) proposed to advance.
In Rd of 24, the 4 less stronger groups have pairings 4x 1sts v 4x other 3rds, while 4x 2nds v 4x strong 3rds.
The Last 16 also drawn to the 4 Strong groups the following year (this allows the non-16 to continue with favourable group draws until they are ready for a better challenge).
This will also allow 4 to 8 teams to 'ebb and flo' in and out of the respective 4x4s and provide for fresh group composition from year to year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1312 - 16/06/2018 20:13:54    2112174

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Replying To Htaem:  "In fairness I don't think it promotes deadwood, lazy county boards are very much an internal problem that counties must face themselves, I think the championship structure is irrelevant to a deadwood setup. In anycase I would argue that cutting weaker counties adrift into a B championship is likely to do more harm than good as it would be harder to raise interest and promote the games.

Provincial groups could be considered as an option, I certainly wouldn't dismiss that suggestion, it would retain a lot of local derbies which is good."
I think a McDonagh Cup type competition in football would have a higher profile.

I would argue for the final being a curtain raiser to the Leinster Football Final and the winners being part of the Final 16 of 4 groups of 4.

If Carlow won such a competition and were in a group of 4 with two home games, it would do a lot to promote the game within their county.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 17/06/2018 13:34:34    2112244

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1 thing that annoys me is any talk of a B competition you always hear an idea of playing the final weeks ahead of the All Ireland Final, why not play the B final as a curtain raiser to the All Ireland Final, have 3 games on the day, the minor now U17 final, the B final and then the A final for Sam, we already have the current system in hurling where Ring, Rackard, Meagher finals were played in May now this year in June, Rackard and Meagher should be played on the Saturday of All Ireland Final weekend and the Christy Ring final played on Sunday just before the Liam McCarthy final as a curtain raiser. Imagine playing a final in any code by weaker counties in front of 30000 people and midway into the 2nd half it would be close to 84000 in Croke Park watching you, if that doesn't put fire into your belly then there is no place for you on the pitch

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1289 - 18/06/2018 11:15:04    2112576

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Replying To riverboys:  "1 thing that annoys me is any talk of a B competition you always hear an idea of playing the final weeks ahead of the All Ireland Final, why not play the B final as a curtain raiser to the All Ireland Final, have 3 games on the day, the minor now U17 final, the B final and then the A final for Sam, we already have the current system in hurling where Ring, Rackard, Meagher finals were played in May now this year in June, Rackard and Meagher should be played on the Saturday of All Ireland Final weekend and the Christy Ring final played on Sunday just before the Liam McCarthy final as a curtain raiser. Imagine playing a final in any code by weaker counties in front of 30000 people and midway into the 2nd half it would be close to 84000 in Croke Park watching you, if that doesn't put fire into your belly then there is no place for you on the pitch"
I like the idea but it's tough enough getting tickets for a final. There'd be a bigger problem if they added a third game.

Maybe have the U17, U20 and B final together on the Saturday and the Senior final standalone, more tickets available, on the Sunday.

Still not a fan of any B championship though.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 4764 - 18/06/2018 11:49:29    2112590

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There have been arguments for and against a B Championship - why can't weaker counties play in both ?
Tier 1 (Sam Mag Cup) with the Prov KO (for 33 teams) and a group phase (mouthwatering best subset, say 18 teams).
Tier 2 (Paudi OSe Cup) has a group phase for the lower end only (for the rest, say 14 teams). POSC has the incentive for teams to 'go up' to the Sam 18 groups in the following year (earning a 2nd path in the race for Sam).
This gives the Carlows of the world a chance at glory day wins v the Kildares, but also gives them a competitive chance at their own level if they got to the Lein Final and a presumed Dublin hammering.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1312 - 18/06/2018 13:19:40    2112631

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