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Tyrone in 00s v Dublin in the 10s

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Replying To Thomas Clarke:  "A few random thoughts:

1) Tyrone's peak was 2003-2005. When they won the AI in 2003, they were backboned by the 2000-2001 AI U21 winning side, and the average age was 23. They lost in 2001 & 2002 because they just weren't ready yet.
In 2006 the side was destroyed with injuries. Almost the entire starting forward line were injured all summer (O'Neill, McGuigan, McGinley, Cavlan and Canavan had retired). By 2007 they continued to win games, but had stopped blowing other sides away. They weren't old, but they were past their best.

When I think of Tyrone's real, top of the tree peak, and the era from which i'd compare them to other great sides, it's always 2003-2005.

2) I think it's difficult from posters from very successful counties (i.e. Dublin & Kerry) to really appreciate what it meant for Tyrone to win AIs in that era. Those lads had won minor, 2 x U21, and seniors and, for a county with little tradition, that was beyond what any of them would have dreamed of growing up. Has a team making a breakthrough like that ever went on to win 3 or more AI in the modern era? Boylan's 2 great Meath sides didn't, O'Mahony's Galway, Morgan's Cork, McGrath's Down, they all just managed 2. The Armaghs, Donegals and Derrys only won 1. Similarly in hurling, the great Galway, Clare, Offaly and Wexford sides of the 80s/90s never won a 3rd.

When even winning one AI is beyond your the wildest dreams of your county, hunger gets sated pretty quickly. I've no doubt it is different in Kerry, where men have 8 AI in their back pockets, and even in Dublin, where the Brogans and others would have been no strangers to seeing Celtic crosses when they were growing up.

Tyrone won 2 in 3 years, and were on the downward slope after that. Having struggled in the league and early rounds of the championship, they caught fire and recaptured the magic for 6 weeks in the summer of 2008, but it was with an inferior side than 2003-05. After 2008, they were basically gone as genuine AI contenders, but 3 titles to a county that had never won any previously was still pretty special.

3) For all the talk about 'tactical edges' being decisive, I think a forward line of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan, Canavan, O'Neill & Mulligan was a ridiculously gifted attack. Throw in Cavanagh + Hughes/McGinley from midfield, and you have as much firepower as you'd need to match just about any team."
Great post, and I agree more acknowledgement should be given to the fact this came from a county with no tradition. What is unfair though is comparing other great sides like Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal and Derry. Two of Tyrone's All Ireland win's came through the back door. As with the teams mentioned Tyrone would have been gone in 2005 after the Ulster final and the first round in 2008 so they only had one unbeaten season. If the back door was around in the 90's would Derry have added another All Ireland, I suspect possibly, they probably would have played Down in the All Ireland semi or final in 1994. Boylan's Meath took some beating, could you imagine how difficult it would have been to beat them twice in the one summer?! Tyrone came at the right time with the back door and benefited from it, they used it to pip Armagh in 2005, the extra hunger from the Ulster Final would have been significant. That Armagh team dominated Ulster for 10 years, without a backdoor you could argue it would have been Armagh and Kerry dominating the Croke Park games, as Tyrone would have been gone early in 05 and 08. Without diluting Tyrone's success it is unfair to compare it to others in the previous 20 years, as the system change helped.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 01/05/2018 17:28:50    2096050

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Again, very debatable. That team had plenty of mobility right throughout, and a strong bench. We will never know how they'd match up, but you saying Dublin would definitely beat them every time doesn't make it a fact.

To support your agenda you are being incredibly generous in your assessment of Mayo and Donegal this decade (one, yes one All Ireland between them), and very dismissive, and almost disrespectful of two teams that won multiple All Ireland's in their heyday. Im not saying you are definitely wrong, but your point of view is beyond biased."
To be fair though mate its a bit narrow looking just at finals, to be fair it works both ways i think it was Brolly who said sometime in the last few years that Kerry were the "greatest team of 00's at beating Cork and Mayo".

When you look at the route Dublin have taken to finals every year they have beaten every top team that the country can throw at them who have been able to ask a question in the Championship there just isn't anyone left who hasn't been overcome especially in the Gavin era, that in itself is remarkable in an era. Most of the top teams have been multiple times at this stage and often in the same year and all done through the front door. I havent looked at any of Kerry routes to finals in the 00's but i presume they were equally as tough.

Someone was telling me the other day, that Dublin are going to take the record some time in the Leinster championship of most games unbeaten in the championship of all time, im not sure if its true or not, but they seemed to think the record is 19 held by either Kerry or Wexford, i cant remember which now, i think it may have been Wexford as one year Kerry got a by to Munster final.

Its pretty telling if the above is true that the type of performances and dominance that Dublin are currently exerting, just hasn't been seen in the sport before, not in the modern context as we know it. Its uncharted territory really.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 18:03:38    2096054

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Again, very debatable. That team had plenty of mobility right throughout, and a strong bench. We will never know how they'd match up, but you saying Dublin would definitely beat them every time doesn't make it a fact.

To support your agenda you are being incredibly generous in your assessment of Mayo and Donegal this decade (one, yes one All Ireland between them), and very dismissive, and almost disrespectful of two teams that won multiple All Ireland's in their heyday. Im not saying you are definitely wrong, but your point of view is beyond biased."
I didn't say they'd definitely beat them

If I did say that it was an error on my part

All I can see is that Kerry lost games when it was put up to them (albeit Cork.. but Cork had beaten Kerry in Munster that year)

Kerry no doubt profited greatly winning completely one sided AI's - poor finals against opposition way out of their depth

To think Mayo were the 2nd best team in Ireland over those years shows how average the championships were in my opinion

The current Mayo side is far superior to the shambles Kerry took on in those finals

I've no doubt Donegal 2012 could have beaten Tyrone or Kerry in the 00's

Sure Kerry greatly struggled against Armagh and Tyrone. Donegal 2012 are every bit as good and had that edge that Kerry struggled against.

Current Dubs team can setup in a very similar fashion and a lesser 2011 version setup similar to Tyrone and beat Kerry with a starting 15 not as good as Kerry that day.

That Kerry team have to be judged on how they played against the better teams of the 00's and more often than not they lost.

No doubt profiting greatly from playing inferior opposition to themselves rather than beating the best.

That's sort of undeniable.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 18:05:40    2096055

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Replying To sam1884:  "Good shout, Meath probably to a certain extent brought professionalism and intensity to the GAA during the 90's, without changing football too much. Joe Kernan brought it to a new level and transformed inter county football. Ulster football was struggling with little success in over a decade. Tyrone had a great team but could not break through. Joe Kernan showed Tyrone, Donegal, and to a lesser extent Fermanagh how to have successful summers. By the early 00's Tyrone had a younger team and were able to benefit more from the system over that era. What is ironic is Kernan went to Galway and learnt his methods were outdated, and left the stage. His transformation brought huge change but as Dublin showed last August it was successful a decade ago - time moves on."
I totally agree.

Dublin have the panel and game knowledge to play any sort of setup successfully as has been proven.

Gavin forgot about that in 2014 but addressed it superbly well. Going on the greatest run of competitive victories ever seen across League and Championship in the history of the GAA.

Thanks Paul Murphy!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 18:09:13    2096057

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But in anyway's

4 in a row is what's happening this year

No team has got near to such a thing for a fair aul while but I think injuries may have caught up with Dublin

Mickey Harte called it today

I personally think Dublin will come up short in 2018 and any team losing Brogan, Connolly and McCaffrey have to be damaged

if/when Dublin lose there will be plenty of egg on faces around here

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 18:33:48    2096060

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Replying To sam1884:  "Great post, and I agree more acknowledgement should be given to the fact this came from a county with no tradition. What is unfair though is comparing other great sides like Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal and Derry. Two of Tyrone's All Ireland win's came through the back door. As with the teams mentioned Tyrone would have been gone in 2005 after the Ulster final and the first round in 2008 so they only had one unbeaten season. If the back door was around in the 90's would Derry have added another All Ireland, I suspect possibly, they probably would have played Down in the All Ireland semi or final in 1994. Boylan's Meath took some beating, could you imagine how difficult it would have been to beat them twice in the one summer?! Tyrone came at the right time with the back door and benefited from it, they used it to pip Armagh in 2005, the extra hunger from the Ulster Final would have been significant. That Armagh team dominated Ulster for 10 years, without a backdoor you could argue it would have been Armagh and Kerry dominating the Croke Park games, as Tyrone would have been gone early in 05 and 08. Without diluting Tyrone's success it is unfair to compare it to others in the previous 20 years, as the system change helped."
In the first year of the backdoor Tyrone had to play Derry twice. Under the old system they would have faced Roscommon in the semi final. You win some you lose some. You can only play what's in front of you. 2005 was great in that inside one month they beat Dublin,Armagh and Kerry. Tyrone 2005 2008,Kerry 2006 2009 were all great wins. Do Galway think 1998 was better than 2001 l doubt it.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 01/05/2018 18:43:15    2096062

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Replying To jimbodub:  "I didn't say they'd definitely beat them

If I did say that it was an error on my part

All I can see is that Kerry lost games when it was put up to them (albeit Cork.. but Cork had beaten Kerry in Munster that year)

Kerry no doubt profited greatly winning completely one sided AI's - poor finals against opposition way out of their depth

To think Mayo were the 2nd best team in Ireland over those years shows how average the championships were in my opinion

The current Mayo side is far superior to the shambles Kerry took on in those finals

I've no doubt Donegal 2012 could have beaten Tyrone or Kerry in the 00's

Sure Kerry greatly struggled against Armagh and Tyrone. Donegal 2012 are every bit as good and had that edge that Kerry struggled against.

Current Dubs team can setup in a very similar fashion and a lesser 2011 version setup similar to Tyrone and beat Kerry with a starting 15 not as good as Kerry that day.

That Kerry team have to be judged on how they played against the better teams of the 00's and more often than not they lost.

No doubt profiting greatly from playing inferior opposition to themselves rather than beating the best.

That's sort of undeniable."
If that's the case it's also undeniable that Dublin are currently doing the exact same thing Jimbo, who aside from a good (not great) Mayo side has really tested them? The competition in Leinster is the weakest ever and Kerry Tyrone and Donegal are all rebuilding, and Armagh and Cork have fallen off a cliff along with several usually strong Ulster sides.

You point to Kerry and say they only win handy All Ireland's but Dublin have strolled to their titles, overcoming Mayo usually, you can't have it both ways jimbo.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 18:50:56    2096065

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Replying To TheUsername:  "To be fair though mate its a bit narrow looking just at finals, to be fair it works both ways i think it was Brolly who said sometime in the last few years that Kerry were the "greatest team of 00's at beating Cork and Mayo".

When you look at the route Dublin have taken to finals every year they have beaten every top team that the country can throw at them who have been able to ask a question in the Championship there just isn't anyone left who hasn't been overcome especially in the Gavin era, that in itself is remarkable in an era. Most of the top teams have been multiple times at this stage and often in the same year and all done through the front door. I havent looked at any of Kerry routes to finals in the 00's but i presume they were equally as tough.

Someone was telling me the other day, that Dublin are going to take the record some time in the Leinster championship of most games unbeaten in the championship of all time, im not sure if its true or not, but they seemed to think the record is 19 held by either Kerry or Wexford, i cant remember which now, i think it may have been Wexford as one year Kerry got a by to Munster final.

Its pretty telling if the above is true that the type of performances and dominance that Dublin are currently exerting, just hasn't been seen in the sport before, not in the modern context as we know it. Its uncharted territory really."
Who listens to Brolly, Kerry beat what was in front of them when they could and came back again and again to contest finals. They beat a lot more than Cork and Mayo over their purple patch, but people only seem to want to focus on a few defeats, understandably when it fits a particular agenda. I would accept that those defeats to Tyrone will leave an indelible question mark on that teams legacy.

They were probably a bit tactically naive at times, especially against counter attacking teams, but were outstanding in full flight, and I think if you had those players available now, with current training and tactics you'd have a very special team. We'll never know of course.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 19:00:56    2096067

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Mayo are almost on par with this Dublin team when you look at the results. So they are right up there with one of the best teams of all time as has been proven from their performances.

You should be judged with how you perform against the best and Mayo have not been found wanting

You boys allowed Tyrone to become great. Tyrone were beatable. Ye couldn't do it.

Mayo aren't great because we managed to just about beat them. That's why you have your current opinion.

It's quite simply the greatest Mayo side of all time and if the 00's Dubs team was around now taking on that Mayo team, Well Mayo would have multiple titles by now.

Mayo are unlucky that Dublin have produced the greatest side since the 4 in a row Kerry team.

Have you not seen how competitive the top end games are across this decade? The game has advanced and tactically is far superior now and it's ultra competitive at the top. So much more going on in this day and age compared to even the last decade and it's brought teams closer.. especially at the top.

No cake walk finals seen in the 00's where if that was all the best the 2nd best team in the country could offer...it really speaks volumes about overall standards in that year!

We've had 4 winners similar to the 00's, no back door winners and not one final was a lopsided contest where it was perfectly clear that one team was streets ahead.

No Mayo aren't great but they haven't been allowed to be. Mayo just lacking a player or two and it has to be said... they've also been a bit unlucky!

They should have beaten Dublin but couldn't!

I wish they were as bad as the 00's team you boys prospered greatly against! Must be nice to sit back with 55 minutes to go and plan what pub you'd be going to after the game

The coming championship will be very competitive once again in my opinion. It's something to look forward to, as such I'll leave it there!

Good debating with you but we're just going in circles now.

On topic. 100% Yes Dublin could have beaten Tyrone a number of times in the 00's and same applies to Kerry.

Dublin are ahead of both and the stats don't lie.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 19:25:40    2096073

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "If that's the case it's also undeniable that Dublin are currently doing the exact same thing Jimbo, who aside from a good (not great) Mayo side has really tested them? The competition in Leinster is the weakest ever and Kerry Tyrone and Donegal are all rebuilding, and Armagh and Cork have fallen off a cliff along with several usually strong Ulster sides.

You point to Kerry and say they only win handy All Ireland's but Dublin have strolled to their titles, overcoming Mayo usually, you can't have it both ways jimbo."
Geniusgerry

"Dublin have strolled to All Ireland's"

Daft thing to say Gerry. I mean what have you been watching haha

Want to see strolling to All Ireland's ... get out your 00's DVD chief and focus on your cake walk titles against Mayo who were probably one of the poorest finalists seen in the last 30 years

Every AI won by Dublin this decade has been hugely competitive and they had to win games they should have lost.

The stats, results, footage is there for all to see

So really what are you on about!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 19:34:46    2096076

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Your attempt to paint Mayo as one of the greatest teams of all time is really odd jimbo. They have yet to win an All Ireland, and haven't won their province in a few years. The past two seasons they have been pushed all the way by some very ordinary teams. Yes they have had some heroic losses against Dublin in finals, but since when does this make a great team? According to you losing close finals means you are not a great team, at least when you are kerry anyway. I really don't get where you are coming from at all with this narrative.

I suspect its purely to reassure yourself that Dublin have had to beat one of the best of all time to try to magnify their achievements. Mayo are brilliantly entertaining and a very good team on their day, but I don't think they can claim greatness yet, and time is running out for them. I would be genuinely interested to hear what Mayo fans think? I would put the Galway 98-01 team ahead of them personally as far as Connacht teams go.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 19:53:24    2096084

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Who listens to Brolly, Kerry beat what was in front of them when they could and came back again and again to contest finals. They beat a lot more than Cork and Mayo over their purple patch, but people only seem to want to focus on a few defeats, understandably when it fits a particular agenda. I would accept that those defeats to Tyrone will leave an indelible question mark on that teams legacy.

They were probably a bit tactically naive at times, especially against counter attacking teams, but were outstanding in full flight, and I think if you had those players available now, with current training and tactics you'd have a very special team. We'll never know of course."
Fair play mate, I don't really have any axe to grind with either team of the 00s, I don't see any issue really with eras, Kerry, Tyrone or Dublin really all were successful teams, all put cups on the table, all were enjoyable to watch for different reasons.

I don't see the point in taking anything away or criticizing any of the teams if I'm being honest. It's all a bit of a "my dad, is better then your dad debate". :D

Only a couple of weeks now until a ball is kicked, thankfully, I like how yee are traveling at the moment and I rate young David, Burns and particularly Sean O Shea, cause for optimisim (tempered I'm sure) down the south west in my opinion!! Will be about finding the balance I think!

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 20:00:50    2096087

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Geniusgerry

"Dublin have strolled to All Ireland's"

Daft thing to say Gerry. I mean what have you been watching haha

Want to see strolling to All Ireland's ... get out your 00's DVD chief and focus on your cake walk titles against Mayo who were probably one of the poorest finalists seen in the last 30 years

Every AI won by Dublin this decade has been hugely competitive and they had to win games they should have lost.

The stats, results, footage is there for all to see

So really what are you on about!"
Nobody has laid a glove on Dublin in years apart from Mayo, and I have said all I am going to say about them jimbo. You want to believe you are beating top team after top team every years that's fine, the reality is there is a dearth of genuine contenders about at the minute and ye have benefited from that. Kerry have at times in the past too no doubt about it.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 20:09:10    2096090

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Fair play mate, I don't really have any axe to grind with either team of the 00s, I don't see any issue really with eras, Kerry, Tyrone or Dublin really all were successful teams, all put cups on the table, all were enjoyable to watch for different reasons.

I don't see the point in taking anything away or criticizing any of the teams if I'm being honest. It's all a bit of a "my dad, is better then your dad debate". :D

Only a couple of weeks now until a ball is kicked, thankfully, I like how yee are traveling at the moment and I rate young David, Burns and particularly Sean O Shea, cause for optimisim (tempered I'm sure) down the south west in my opinion!! Will be about finding the balance I think!"
Absolutely Username, but damned if I am going to sit by and read lads casually insult and dismiss one of my favourite teams. I have stated in this thread Dublin probably have the edge all things considered l, but I don't think it's as clear cut as some want to make believe.

We are moving in the right direction for 2018, but it's at least a year too early for us, probably two. I can't see who is going to stop ye this year tbh, even with the few injuries ye have.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 20:29:55    2096093

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Absolutely Username, but damned if I am going to sit by and read lads casually insult and dismiss one of my favourite teams. I have stated in this thread Dublin probably have the edge all things considered l, but I don't think it's as clear cut as some want to make believe.

We are moving in the right direction for 2018, but it's at least a year too early for us, probably two. I can't see who is going to stop ye this year tbh, even with the few injuries ye have."
I think it will be very compeitive this year mate with some epic games, I see five teams that can win it out right and I think a lot of games will be marginal when it comes to those teams plaging each other.

We are the team to beat for sure, but I don't think we are as strong as other years, a lot of transition actually happened last year in the starting that was backed by a lot of Ireland backing it up from the bench. Questions will be asked of many of the Dublin lads to be the senior players now with injuries and others leaving the panel. It's hard not to be confident, but I'm not overly, ill enjoy it eaother way.

I think Kerry are going in welll with no real expectations and a bit of space for development. I think the league was a bit of shadow boxing and got what you were looking for out of it. Plenty of headroom for development, players coming back and lads further along in fitness. The panel is as deep and as young as anyone. The only weaknesses I can see are cracking the defensive code and standing up to the physical challenge, yee could prob do with a couple of midfielders to, a lot of that is coachable so I'm pretty much presuming Kerry will be in contention.

There is the cynical part of me that think the GAA has set the up the S8 to give a Dublin Vs Kerry final it's best shot and push the 4/5 in row narrative.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 21:16:57    2096106

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Owen Mulligan has now said that, even though he's a fan of Lee Brennan, 'none' of the current Tyrone forwards would get onto any of Tyrone's three winning noughties teams.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 02/05/2018 09:26:27    2096176

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Replying To essmac:  "Owen Mulligan has now said that, even though he's a fan of Lee Brennan, 'none' of the current Tyrone forwards would get onto any of Tyrone's three winning noughties teams."
The 08 team would surely have room for one or two.
Colm McCullough had a good year but Brennan would be more prolific.
If you call Mattie Donnelly or Peter Harte a forward, they'd make it too.

Keeper, Defence and midfield were excellent for tyrone in 08 but Sean Cavanagh carried that full forward line.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5017 - 02/05/2018 11:08:02    2096202

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Replying To essmac:  "Owen Mulligan has now said that, even though he's a fan of Lee Brennan, 'none' of the current Tyrone forwards would get onto any of Tyrone's three winning noughties teams."
Interesting opinion and he'd be closer to the teams / players than 99.9% (if not all) on this forum, but would players like Penrose, J McMahon, T McGuigan and McCullagh that started the 2008 final, fine players that they are, all be better options than current options like Sudden, Donnelly, Brennan etc.? I'd argue not.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 02/05/2018 12:29:50    2096219

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That 08 team did have some very average players on paper. Even their results were pretty poor up until the famous quarter final against Dublin.

I would argue that a lot of the current crop of players are of a higher calibre than what Tyrone had in 08 but they don't have half the heart.

If that teams work ethic, aggression and attitude could be transferred to this current Tyrone team then they would be very hard to beat indeed.

lambofgod (Mayo) - Posts: 116 - 02/05/2018 15:19:10    2096247

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Replying To lambofgod:  "That 08 team did have some very average players on paper. Even their results were pretty poor up until the famous quarter final against Dublin.

I would argue that a lot of the current crop of players are of a higher calibre than what Tyrone had in 08 but they don't have half the heart.

If that teams work ethic, aggression and attitude could be transferred to this current Tyrone team then they would be very hard to beat indeed."
The 2008 team was very strong defensively, with Joe McMahon, Justin McMahon, Ricey, Davy Harte, Gormley & Jordan. A bit like the current Mayo side, that defence gave them a chance in every game.

In midfield, Enda McGinley was the best midfielder in Ireland that year, and really should have won Footballer of the Year.

The attack had lots of pace and energy, and still had Dooher playing at a high level. Collie McCullough was particularly good that season, while Ryan Mellon recaptured his 2005 form late in the summer. But really, it was Sean Cavanagh's relocation to full forward that made all the difference. He was excellent, and allowed the rest to fit in around him. The current Tyrone forward line would be comparable to the 2008 team, with the exception of Big Sean at 14.

Mickey Harte himself knew that the forwards weren't what he had in 03-05, which is why he was delighted for Stevie O'Neill to come out of retirement and return to the squad a fortnight before the AI final. When you think about it, for that to happen was pretty incredible. A player joining a panel in September, and being the first sub in the AI final 2 weeks later. With the modern focus on team unity and nobody breaking the group, I'm not sure we'll ever see something like that again. It's also a testament to how Stevie was thought of by his teammates that they were ok with it happening.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 02/05/2018 15:40:38    2096253

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