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Tyrone in 00s v Dublin in the 10s

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Jim
There were a few mitigating circumstances for that Tyrone team in 04. You have to take that into consideration."
So whats your reasons for losing to Sligo in 02, Derry and Loais in 06, Meath in 07 and Down in 08?

All very average teams.

lambofgod (Mayo) - Posts: 116 - 01/05/2018 07:50:12    2095870

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Not the only year they were beaten early in the 00's though"
I think everybody would accept 2004 was a difficult year for Tyrone. However they struggled in 2006 and 2009, also in 2001, 2002 and 2007. If Kerry had some boom and bust years maybe their results against Tyrone would have been different. The reality is Tyrone put 3 good seasons together in 10 years, ensuring they were well rested and prepared for those years. The vast majority of this Dublin team have won All Ireland's in 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 and 2017. And we have two championships left this decade. People are saying that Tyrone team would beat the current Dublin team but forget Tyrone lost to Sligo, Laois, Derry, Donegal and drew with Louth during those years and never competed in two finals back to back. It was the best Tyrone team ever no doubt, but it was not the best GAA team ever, and the stats show when history is written, despite what Tyrone people like to think they will not be talked in the same breath as this current Dublin team.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 01/05/2018 09:47:31    2095887

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Replying To sam1884:  "I think everybody would accept 2004 was a difficult year for Tyrone. However they struggled in 2006 and 2009, also in 2001, 2002 and 2007. If Kerry had some boom and bust years maybe their results against Tyrone would have been different. The reality is Tyrone put 3 good seasons together in 10 years, ensuring they were well rested and prepared for those years. The vast majority of this Dublin team have won All Ireland's in 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 and 2017. And we have two championships left this decade. People are saying that Tyrone team would beat the current Dublin team but forget Tyrone lost to Sligo, Laois, Derry, Donegal and drew with Louth during those years and never competed in two finals back to back. It was the best Tyrone team ever no doubt, but it was not the best GAA team ever, and the stats show when history is written, despite what Tyrone people like to think they will not be talked in the same breath as this current Dublin team."
2004 was a difficult year cause it's hard to retainSam after winning it for the first time ever that's fair enough.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 01/05/2018 09:57:38    2095893

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Replying To lambofgod:  "So whats your reasons for losing to Sligo in 02, Derry and Loais in 06, Meath in 07 and Down in 08?

All very average teams."
Pretty sure the current Mayo and Dub sides would have prospered in those years against Tyrone and no doubt the current Mayo side would roll over the way it did in the 00's to Kerry

Completely out of their depth in those finals

Time to debunk the ultra self serving myth here the folks...

We've had to listen to enough waffle about the 00's at this stage

Doesn't hold up under any sort of scrutiny and well yiz know it.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 09:58:26    2095894

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Replying To lambofgod:  "So whats your reasons for losing to Sligo in 02, Derry and Loais in 06, Meath in 07 and Down in 08?

All very average teams."
Did I say anything about those defeats? We were beat by better teams on the day. Just like Dublin were beat by Meath, Mayo, Donegal.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 01/05/2018 10:09:31    2095898

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Replying To sam1884:  "I think everybody would accept 2004 was a difficult year for Tyrone. However they struggled in 2006 and 2009, also in 2001, 2002 and 2007. If Kerry had some boom and bust years maybe their results against Tyrone would have been different. The reality is Tyrone put 3 good seasons together in 10 years, ensuring they were well rested and prepared for those years. The vast majority of this Dublin team have won All Ireland's in 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 and 2017. And we have two championships left this decade. People are saying that Tyrone team would beat the current Dublin team but forget Tyrone lost to Sligo, Laois, Derry, Donegal and drew with Louth during those years and never competed in two finals back to back. It was the best Tyrone team ever no doubt, but it was not the best GAA team ever, and the stats show when history is written, despite what Tyrone people like to think they will not be talked in the same breath as this current Dublin team."
I 100% accept 2004 being a terrible situation for them and I'll retract that without reservation. I actually thought Cormac passed in 2005 but my point still holds up.

But yeah.. you've sort of nailed it there.

Gormley can say what he wants but his opinion really doesn't hold up when you look at it in black and white. Cavanagh played on the same team as Gormley but unlike his fellow county man, he actually played against this current Dubs side and well his comments were very clear.. He experienced first hand what this Dubs side is all about.

Perhaps Gormley's opinion is born from playing a bog average Dublin side who were practically incapable of beating anyone outside of Leinster!

As such Cavanaghs opinion and comments puts forward an interesting perspective given what this thread is about.

There's a bit of an overblown evaluation given to the 00's that really doesn't hold up when you get into it.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 10:10:31    2095899

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Did I say anything about those defeats? We were beat by better teams on the day. Just like Dublin were beat by Meath, Mayo, Donegal."
In fairness to you Fridge

You've never denied that the current Dublin team could beat the 00's Tyrone side but there's posters that are saying that...

Think you know that they would have given the other teams mentioneted above who beat Tyrone across the 00's

I focused on 2004 which was a poor example and I'd retract that without reservation

There is a bit of a myth surrounding the 00's that conveniently fits into the agendas of a few posters

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 10:19:01    2095902

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Replying To sam1884:  "I think everybody would accept 2004 was a difficult year for Tyrone. However they struggled in 2006 and 2009, also in 2001, 2002 and 2007. If Kerry had some boom and bust years maybe their results against Tyrone would have been different. The reality is Tyrone put 3 good seasons together in 10 years, ensuring they were well rested and prepared for those years. The vast majority of this Dublin team have won All Ireland's in 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016 and 2017. And we have two championships left this decade. People are saying that Tyrone team would beat the current Dublin team but forget Tyrone lost to Sligo, Laois, Derry, Donegal and drew with Louth during those years and never competed in two finals back to back. It was the best Tyrone team ever no doubt, but it was not the best GAA team ever, and the stats show when history is written, despite what Tyrone people like to think they will not be talked in the same breath as this current Dublin team."
Interesting Tyrone won Ulster championships in 2001 2007 & 2009 very successful years. The All-Ireland winners of 2008 had to play Armagh and Derry in their first two championship in 2009 not much rest up there. The Ulster Championship has always been a tough test and you have to be ready for it in May. Even the last Ulster all-Ireland winners Donegal could not get out of Ulster the following year.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 01/05/2018 10:56:27    2095915

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It's this simple really

Would Kerry and Tyrone won so much in the 00's if the current Mayo or Dublin teams were playing

I'd say absolutely not.

Would the current Dublin team win as much this decade if Kerry or Tyrone were around...

Well Kerry lost almost every game that didn't go their way and Tyrone had 3 excellent seasons (even if they lost a couple of games over those years) but also had plenty of poor years mixed in there and weren't consistent.

So yeah..

Maybe Dublin would have 1 less at a stretch 2

They might have lost 2011 and again at a stretch 2013

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 11:14:58    2095923

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Replying To Byanthon:  "Interesting Tyrone won Ulster championships in 2001 2007 & 2009 very successful years. The All-Ireland winners of 2008 had to play Armagh and Derry in their first two championship in 2009 not much rest up there. The Ulster Championship has always been a tough test and you have to be ready for it in May. Even the last Ulster all-Ireland winners Donegal could not get out of Ulster the following year."
True and Ulster Championships are tough to win. The debate though is Gormley and some other Tyrone folk like to think the 00's team is better than this current Dublin team. I understand Tyrone see that team as their best ever. But they cannot argue it's the best football team ever which I suspect they are trying to do. The reality is this Dublin team have taken themselves to Croke Park and won big games consistently despite all the challenges of retaining All Ireland's. That Tyrone team whilst having some level of success outside of All Ireland winning years were not good enough to even play in two All Ireland final's back to back. Yes they won ulster in 2007 and 2009 but in reality Armagh had been going since the late 90's and performance levels were dropping. Tyrone had three boom years of which two of those years did not bring a Provincial title, so they clearly could not win their province but had planned for the August games. They could not do this every year like this great Dublin team, because it takes a special team to win your province and then win the big Croke Park games consistently. I don't think anybody would disagree with the level of success that tyrone group brought to the county. Especially from a county with no tradition of winning Sam. It was a once in a generation team, almost a freak that so many great players came along at once - as we have seen since Tyrone will not be a consistent All Ireland winning county so I can understand why they are trying to remain relevant. But they are picking the wrong arguments trying to say they would have beaten this Dublin team.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 01/05/2018 11:52:14    2095934

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Replying To jimbodub:  "It's this simple really

Would Kerry and Tyrone won so much in the 00's if the current Mayo or Dublin teams were playing

I'd say absolutely not.

Would the current Dublin team win as much this decade if Kerry or Tyrone were around...

Well Kerry lost almost every game that didn't go their way and Tyrone had 3 excellent seasons (even if they lost a couple of games over those years) but also had plenty of poor years mixed in there and weren't consistent.

So yeah..

Maybe Dublin would have 1 less at a stretch 2

They might have lost 2011 and again at a stretch 2013"
I can see where you need to build Mayo up but they do not match up to Kerry, Tyrone or Armagh from that era. As we seen in 2012 they could not even beat a Donegal team when the pressure was on.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 01/05/2018 12:03:13    2095941

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Both great teams in my opinion, both revolutionised the game and dominated their respective eras in my opinion, just need to be appreciated for what they were/are.

Here's an interesting thought, would Dublin be as successful without Tyrone the trailblazers of strategised defensive system, certainly i think Dublin have benefited from lessons that were thought by Tyrone in that regard. Tyrone left a legacy, Dublin have balanced it between attack and defense.

I think Tyrone have left a lasting legacy for almost every county and changed the competitive face of football, would there have been a Jim McG without Tyrone, would Dublin still be caviler without any defensive strategy. Would Kerry still be playing kick and rush and winning most years without a stern physical and strategic test that they seem to wilt against. In many ways Tyrone and that Tyrone team have changed the game and the legacy has been important in any title won probably form there time on.

Its all very possible to have enjoyed and admired both teams respectively, both teams were, are the best of the era and i think both will have changed the game for the better.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 13:23:16    2095967

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Replying To Byanthon:  "I can see where you need to build Mayo up but they do not match up to Kerry, Tyrone or Armagh from that era. As we seen in 2012 they could not even beat a Donegal team when the pressure was on."
They've improved since then

Also that Donegal side were one of the best teams in the last 30 years and could have beaten Kerry, Tyrone in the 00's

Current Mayo team could have also beaten either Kerry or Tyrone in the 00's

Definitely Tyrone and certainly wouldn't have been so poor against Kerry like their 00's counter parts where they really were a mismatch for Kerry and well out of their depth

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 13:51:01    2095977

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Replying To jimbodub:  "It's this simple really

Would Kerry and Tyrone won so much in the 00's if the current Mayo or Dublin teams were playing

I'd say absolutely not.

Would the current Dublin team win as much this decade if Kerry or Tyrone were around...

Well Kerry lost almost every game that didn't go their way and Tyrone had 3 excellent seasons (even if they lost a couple of games over those years) but also had plenty of poor years mixed in there and weren't consistent.

So yeah..

Maybe Dublin would have 1 less at a stretch 2

They might have lost 2011 and again at a stretch 2013"
That's impossible to say with any degree of certainty Jimbo. Kerry back then had significantly better footballers and with a well organised structure, who know what they might do today. I don't think the current Dublin starting 15 is better than Kerry back then.

You say there is convenient revisionism going on about the 00's, but really apart from Mayo ye have had no credible challenger the past few years, and I have laid out my reservations about Mayo being considered a great team already. There were a lot more teams around in the 00's that were capable of taking a big scalp on any given day.

That Kerry side were settled and at their peak between 04-07 in my view, when they won three out of four, and lost only two championship games in those four years, to a strong Cork side in 06 after a replay, and to Tyrone in 05. That record isn't far off what Dublin are doing now, I would consider that side to be a good bit better than the current Mayo team, and I find it unlikely that they'd let Dublin stroll to a three in a row the way they have.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 14:21:26    2095990

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Replying To clondalkindub:  "2004 was a difficult year cause it's hard to retainSam after winning it for the first time ever that's fair enough."
That's the second time on this thread that you've made this point, and it's just as disrespectful as it was the first time. If you think that losing your 24 year old friend, neighbour and captain, whose heart gave out on him when he went home after a gym session, wouldn't greatly affect a group of young lads, then it says a lot about you.

I remember reading Brian McGuigan describing a conversation he had with his mother that year, where he talked about being afraid of dying during training sessions. That's the type of affect it had on them. For you to pretend that the only reason Tyrone were well off the pace in 2004 was due to 'second year syndrome', is pretty pathetic.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 01/05/2018 14:23:24    2095992

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Both great teams in my opinion, both revolutionised the game and dominated their respective eras in my opinion, just need to be appreciated for what they were/are.

Here's an interesting thought, would Dublin be as successful without Tyrone the trailblazers of strategised defensive system, certainly i think Dublin have benefited from lessons that were thought by Tyrone in that regard. Tyrone left a legacy, Dublin have balanced it between attack and defense.

I think Tyrone have left a lasting legacy for almost every county and changed the competitive face of football, would there have been a Jim McG without Tyrone, would Dublin still be caviler without any defensive strategy. Would Kerry still be playing kick and rush and winning most years without a stern physical and strategic test that they seem to wilt against. In many ways Tyrone and that Tyrone team have changed the game and the legacy has been important in any title won probably form there time on.

Its all very possible to have enjoyed and admired both teams respectively, both teams were, are the best of the era and i think both will have changed the game for the better."
Joe Kernan started it off!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 14:40:34    2096003

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A few random thoughts:

1) Tyrone's peak was 2003-2005. When they won the AI in 2003, they were backboned by the 2000-2001 AI U21 winning side, and the average age was 23. They lost in 2001 & 2002 because they just weren't ready yet.
In 2006 the side was destroyed with injuries. Almost the entire starting forward line were injured all summer (O'Neill, McGuigan, McGinley, Cavlan and Canavan had retired). By 2007 they continued to win games, but had stopped blowing other sides away. They weren't old, but they were past their best.

When I think of Tyrone's real, top of the tree peak, and the era from which i'd compare them to other great sides, it's always 2003-2005.

2) I think it's difficult from posters from very successful counties (i.e. Dublin & Kerry) to really appreciate what it meant for Tyrone to win AIs in that era. Those lads had won minor, 2 x U21, and seniors and, for a county with little tradition, that was beyond what any of them would have dreamed of growing up. Has a team making a breakthrough like that ever went on to win 3 or more AI in the modern era? Boylan's 2 great Meath sides didn't, O'Mahony's Galway, Morgan's Cork, McGrath's Down, they all just managed 2. The Armaghs, Donegals and Derrys only won 1. Similarly in hurling, the great Galway, Clare, Offaly and Wexford sides of the 80s/90s never won a 3rd.

When even winning one AI is beyond your the wildest dreams of your county, hunger gets sated pretty quickly. I've no doubt it is different in Kerry, where men have 8 AI in their back pockets, and even in Dublin, where the Brogans and others would have been no strangers to seeing Celtic crosses when they were growing up.

Tyrone won 2 in 3 years, and were on the downward slope after that. Having struggled in the league and early rounds of the championship, they caught fire and recaptured the magic for 6 weeks in the summer of 2008, but it was with an inferior side than 2003-05. After 2008, they were basically gone as genuine AI contenders, but 3 titles to a county that had never won any previously was still pretty special.

3) For all the talk about 'tactical edges' being decisive, I think a forward line of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan, Canavan, O'Neill & Mulligan was a ridiculously gifted attack. Throw in Cavanagh + Hughes/McGinley from midfield, and you have as much firepower as you'd need to match just about any team.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 01/05/2018 14:45:06    2096004

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "That's impossible to say with any degree of certainty Jimbo. Kerry back then had significantly better footballers and with a well organised structure, who know what they might do today. I don't think the current Dublin starting 15 is better than Kerry back then.

You say there is convenient revisionism going on about the 00's, but really apart from Mayo ye have had no credible challenger the past few years, and I have laid out my reservations about Mayo being considered a great team already. There were a lot more teams around in the 00's that were capable of taking a big scalp on any given day.

That Kerry side were settled and at their peak between 04-07 in my view, when they won three out of four, and lost only two championship games in those four years, to a strong Cork side in 06 after a replay, and to Tyrone in 05. That record isn't far off what Dublin are doing now, I would consider that side to be a good bit better than the current Mayo team, and I find it unlikely that they'd let Dublin stroll to a three in a row the way they have."
Dublin have a better panel though and it's debatable if Kerry had a better starting 15

Although it's never been who starts the game for this Dublin team

It's the depth, strength and talent of panel which for me is stronger than both the 00's Tyrone / Kerry sides and that's been the main difference this decade for Dublin

Honestly don't think Kerry's midfield back then would be close to mobile enough and if that Kerry team setup 15 v 15 for 70 odd minutes against current Dubs team I only see one winner especially with the options Dublin can call on, Dublin far more adaptable and can play any way you want.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 01/05/2018 15:03:28    2096010

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Dublin have a better panel though and it's debatable if Kerry had a better starting 15

Although it's never been who starts the game for this Dublin team

It's the depth, strength and talent of panel which for me is stronger than both the 00's Tyrone / Kerry sides and that's been the main difference this decade for Dublin

Honestly don't think Kerry's midfield back then would be close to mobile enough and if that Kerry team setup 15 v 15 for 70 odd minutes against current Dubs team I only see one winner especially with the options Dublin can call on, Dublin far more adaptable and can play any way you want."
Again, very debatable. That team had plenty of mobility right throughout, and a strong bench. We will never know how they'd match up, but you saying Dublin would definitely beat them every time doesn't make it a fact.

To support your agenda you are being incredibly generous in your assessment of Mayo and Donegal this decade (one, yes one All Ireland between them), and very dismissive, and almost disrespectful of two teams that won multiple All Ireland's in their heyday. Im not saying you are definitely wrong, but your point of view is beyond biased.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 16:01:36    2096029

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Joe Kernan started it off!"
Good shout, Meath probably to a certain extent brought professionalism and intensity to the GAA during the 90's, without changing football too much. Joe Kernan brought it to a new level and transformed inter county football. Ulster football was struggling with little success in over a decade. Tyrone had a great team but could not break through. Joe Kernan showed Tyrone, Donegal, and to a lesser extent Fermanagh how to have successful summers. By the early 00's Tyrone had a younger team and were able to benefit more from the system over that era. What is ironic is Kernan went to Galway and learnt his methods were outdated, and left the stage. His transformation brought huge change but as Dublin showed last August it was successful a decade ago - time moves on.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 01/05/2018 17:11:26    2096045

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