National Forum

Cork's Dismissal Of The CPA Motion For Transparency.

(Oldest Posts First)

This seemed to have made the headlines & then disappeared but many of us saw the comments & the vitriol. The burning question is if you have nothing to hide & are so honest why not vote for transparency ? If you vote against transparency you leave yourself open to question. Transparency has become the first casualty in this surprise, surprise.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 622 - 22/02/2018 17:36:09    2079275

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Any poster know the real reason why Cork dismissed the motion out of hand?

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1399 - 22/02/2018 19:16:24    2079309

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They say it was on a technicality; this is always their great fall-back.

Derek Kavanagh - "Yesterday in Florida, there was a vote on gun laws. It was a very sensitive topic, but the votes are in black and white. We in the GAA want darkness and cover and, to me, that shows that there is a real problem. What is there to hide?"

Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 572 - 22/02/2018 22:16:31    2079356

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How can you abuse power if there's transparency?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 929 - 22/02/2018 22:41:39    2079365

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I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than people think. If it can be seen how some delegates are voting, especially on a contentious issue, it could lead to intimidation.

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 313 - 23/02/2018 09:12:26    2079391

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If the reason not to have transparency is the fear of intimidation, then there is a far bigger nastier problem.

BlastCalyle (Mayo) - Posts: 195 - 23/02/2018 09:44:45    2079396

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Replying To extranjero:  "I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than people think. If it can be seen how some delegates are voting, especially on a contentious issue, it could lead to intimidation."
Not really, as delegates are mandated to vote via their County Board, which are mandated from their club which are mandated by their members

The_DOC (Galway) - Posts: 508 - 23/02/2018 09:47:10    2079397

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Looks like the cork co board are worried that people will know what way they vote. Anyone who votes in accordance with the way their county convention instructs them to vote has nothing to worry about.

The argument that 'why put us in office if you don't trust us' is just a ridiculous argument. Accounts are audited every year, that doesnt mean people dont trust their treasurers. And to automatically assume that because someone has been elected to a position within the GAA or indeed any other organisation, that they are somehow automatically trustworthy in all circumstances is naive

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 93 - 23/02/2018 11:10:30    2079412

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Replying To extranjero:  "I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than people think. If it can be seen how some delegates are voting, especially on a contentious issue, it could lead to intimidation."
In a contentious issue the Delegate votes as she/he have been delegated, simple as & with transparency she/he would then have the full backing of their county & clubs, if there is intimidation going on then we might as well be run by an army council. The fact is that Congress is populated with people with ambition to attain higher office in the Association who play politics & back certain agendas to curry favour down the line. The withering attack by both Cork individuals was especially vitriolic. To come out so strongly about their honesty & integrity but on the other hand dismiss the issue of transparency means you leave yourself open to the question, what is there to hide ? The contradiction seems lost on them. No room for debate just an instant dismissal, if this motion fails the GAA aren't far off the politics of North Korea. We could yet see President Kim Jong-Un in his black overcoat, a throwback to the days of the Bishops coat, throwing in the ball at the start of every All Ireland. In his first purge Kim would have Joe Brolly strapped to a missile along with the motion on transparency !

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 622 - 23/02/2018 11:49:22    2079432

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An absolute disgraceful decision by Congress, afraid of transparency, Democracy my backside. I predicted this a few weeks ago but what is even more disappointing is the vitriol shown. As reported a European delegate Tony Bass called the motion a witch hunt & a Trojan horse for a nutty group, absolutely unacceptable comments but indicative of the mentality that pervades Congress. It follows on from Frank Murphy saying they knew where it was coming from. He then tried to muddy the waters by saying there were 400 delegates ? & there would be difficulty collating information. Obviously he ignores the fact that all info is now collected electronically & even displayed on screen in pie charts in seconds. Full credit to Liam Griffin, a successful businessman, a successful Gaa man & lifetime volunteer & sponsor for supporting it but the manner in which he was dismissed has really shown that democracy & transparency are truly dead in the Gaa. I am absolutely disgusted, Aoghain O Fearghail, Paraic Duffy, Frank Murphy, Tracey Kennedy, Tony Bass & the 83% who voted this down should hang their heads in shame, if that's the Gaa they want they are welcome to it, that decision is going to see an even bigger exodus to other sports. John Horan has been handed a poison chalice but after today's decision managers of us are finished with it regardless of what he does. A disgrace !

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 622 - 24/02/2018 16:55:19    2079714

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Replying To extranjero:  "I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than people think. If it can be seen how some delegates are voting, especially on a contentious issue, it could lead to intimidation."
That doesn't hold up: if the delegates are truly voting as instructed then it's already known which way they're going to vote so if intimidation is an issue, then making the vote open will actually alleviate the problem. You can't pressure someone into going against their county's wishes if their vote is open. Intimidation and pressure to have someone change their vote can only work if the vote is secret and their county can never find out that they flipped.

These delegates represent their county, it's not a private vote they're casting, and as such the people they represent have every right to see them vote as instructed. In much the same way a constituent can look up their local TD's voting history in the Dáil to see how they lie on key issues.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2423 - 25/02/2018 08:04:38    2079901

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Replying To festinog:  "That doesn't hold up: if the delegates are truly voting as instructed then it's already known which way they're going to vote so if intimidation is an issue, then making the vote open will actually alleviate the problem. You can't pressure someone into going against their county's wishes if their vote is open. Intimidation and pressure to have someone change their vote can only work if the vote is secret and their county can never find out that they flipped.

These delegates represent their county, it's not a private vote they're casting, and as such the people they represent have every right to see them vote as instructed. In much the same way a constituent can look up their local TD's voting history in the Dáil to see how they lie on key issues."
But on many issues delegates are not instructed what way to vote when going to Congress - if they were then there would be no point in speakers like Liam Griffen making a speech on the day looking to get support for a proposal as delegates would already have known what way they were voting. It's a pity that this issue overshadows the vote banning gambling companies getting involved in sponsoring the GAA which is a very positive move and shows again how the GAA is different to most sports organisations.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2232 - 25/02/2018 09:19:22    2079911

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What seems to happen is that the likes of Longford will vote on hurling issues without consulting our hurling clubs. Instead they'll do a deal with hurling counties who will vote on football issues.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3764 - 25/02/2018 11:00:18    2079930

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I was lucky enough to work for Transparency International for a spell in my youth. One thing I learned there is that if there's a strong systemic emphasis on transparency and accountability, then it influences the behaviour of power-brokers significantly. For example, Denmark, a country which always comes in the top three worldwide for its level of political openness, has a tradition whereby most of the journalists in the country will have the PM's mobile phone number, parliamentarians' expenses are often published online, it's easy to get info on political donations etc.

Then compare their level of corruption with that of Ireland, a country in which Members of the Oireachtas don't have to vouch their expenses, and where tribunals of enquiry almost guarantee the preclusion of a custodial sentence for graft.

It's not that Irish people are inherently more corrupt than the Danes, it's simply that their system has better safeguards than our's. This influences the behaviour of those who can be corrupted.

Nobody acting honestly has anything to fear from transparency measures: in fact, they should embrace them, as they would vindicate their reputation.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1546 - 27/02/2018 21:49:35    2081109

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Gleebo (Mayo)- totally agree with your post. Certain Cork officials obviously do not want transparency.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1903 - 27/02/2018 22:03:29    2081114

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I was lucky enough to work for Transparency International for a spell in my youth. One thing I learned there is that if there's a strong systemic emphasis on transparency and accountability, then it influences the behaviour of power-brokers significantly. For example, Denmark, a country which always comes in the top three worldwide for its level of political openness, has a tradition whereby most of the journalists in the country will have the PM's mobile phone number, parliamentarians' expenses are often published online, it's easy to get info on political donations etc.

Then compare their level of corruption with that of Ireland, a country in which Members of the Oireachtas don't have to vouch their expenses, and where tribunals of enquiry almost guarantee the preclusion of a custodial sentence for graft.

It's not that Irish people are inherently more corrupt than the Danes, it's simply that their system has better safeguards than our's. This influences the behaviour of those who can be corrupted.

Nobody acting honestly has anything to fear from transparency measures: in fact, they should embrace them, as they would vindicate their reputation."
Very interesting info Gleebo, thanks for sharing. I work in the US and for all the guff you hear about "big government" I am constantly amazed at how open and transparent local and state government is. I can find out exactly how my taxes are spent, if I call a branch of the city/state/federal government someone actually answers and I will get my answer in less than a few weeks. By contrast I had to email the Irish consulate in Seattle a month back with some relatively straight forward, normal enquiries; I'm still waiting for even a simple acknowledgment that my email was received. It's a matter of culture.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2423 - 27/02/2018 22:04:15    2081115

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I forgot to add there appears to be little transparency in the 83m spent on the new Cork facility with the sand dunes, maybe Frank Murphy would be better addressing that.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1903 - 27/02/2018 23:25:24    2081136

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Replying To festinog:  "Very interesting info Gleebo, thanks for sharing. I work in the US and for all the guff you hear about "big government" I am constantly amazed at how open and transparent local and state government is. I can find out exactly how my taxes are spent, if I call a branch of the city/state/federal government someone actually answers and I will get my answer in less than a few weeks. By contrast I had to email the Irish consulate in Seattle a month back with some relatively straight forward, normal enquiries; I'm still waiting for even a simple acknowledgment that my email was received. It's a matter of culture."
The frustrating thing is that it would be a relatively easy problem to solve, if only the political will/pressure was there, especially given the technology available now. My employer is an international organization working in over 100 countries, yet we have a map on our website showing everywhere we're operating, the funding involved, who's the project manager, all the project documents are publicly available etc.

The FG/Labour coalition was a big disappointment in this sense IMO, as they made a lot of promises about political reform and transparency, but conveniently forgot about them once they got their bums in ministerial seats.

As regards the GAA, it tends to be an organisation which resists change until the very last moment, owing to the rather hierarchical structures that it has. Change that does come tends to be forced from the lower end to some extent.

I suspect that the motion was probably rejected owing to who it came from, rather than the substance itself.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1546 - 28/02/2018 10:36:15    2081173

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Replying To browncows:  "Gleebo (Mayo)- totally agree with your post. Certain Cork officials obviously do not want transparency."
It's difficult to find transparency at any level in GAA administration. Cliques, petty little 'side-deals' and the 'nod-and-wink' culture abounds.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1399 - 28/02/2018 13:59:04    2081231

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I was lucky enough to work for Transparency International for a spell in my youth. One thing I learned there is that if there's a strong systemic emphasis on transparency and accountability, then it influences the behaviour of power-brokers significantly. For example, Denmark, a country which always comes in the top three worldwide for its level of political openness, has a tradition whereby most of the journalists in the country will have the PM's mobile phone number, parliamentarians' expenses are often published online, it's easy to get info on political donations etc.

Then compare their level of corruption with that of Ireland, a country in which Members of the Oireachtas don't have to vouch their expenses, and where tribunals of enquiry almost guarantee the preclusion of a custodial sentence for graft.

It's not that Irish people are inherently more corrupt than the Danes, it's simply that their system has better safeguards than our's. This influences the behaviour of those who can be corrupted.

Nobody acting honestly has anything to fear from transparency measures: in fact, they should embrace them, as they would vindicate their reputation."
Very interesting post, well done.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 622 - 01/03/2018 00:10:27    2081366

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