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"There Are Signs Of An Agenda Against Tyrone"

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Replying To neverright:  "A 'clutch player' is a new term for me. What does it mean and how did it originate?. On the Harte debate, I think he has the players to play a more expansive game but he doesn't believe in them. Donegal have made the change to a more attack minded game and so could Tyrone. I don' think there is any agenda against Hart's teams but many believe that he could 'take' the top teams if he gave his players more freedom."
A clutch player is an American football term which describes a player that will step up and do the right thing or make the right decision when it's late in the game. I mentioned it on here about a year ago myself and people thought I was mad.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 7174 - 15/02/2018 15:31:11    2077134

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Replying To neverright:  "A 'clutch player' is a new term for me. What does it mean and how did it originate?. On the Harte debate, I think he has the players to play a more expansive game but he doesn't believe in them. Donegal have made the change to a more attack minded game and so could Tyrone. I don' think there is any agenda against Hart's teams but many believe that he could 'take' the top teams if he gave his players more freedom."
Clutch is an american term. It's basically a player that can produce the goods when it matters most, a player that doesn't disappear when the going gets tough or the pressure is on. Cillian O'Connor wouldn't be classified as a clutch player or AOS but Dean Rock would be clutch. When the pressure is on he delivers.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4764 - 15/02/2018 15:37:32    2077138

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Replying To Wally:  "That's just not true.

I am sick of people saying we don't have the players when our players have been given almost no opportunity to play.

I will admit we don't have a Peter Canavan or Stephen O'Neill anymore but they were a once in a lifetime type player.

But our players are every bit as good as those in Mayo and they should really have beaten this current Dublin team in 3 All Ireland Finals.

The difference between them and us is the fact that they commit totally to the attack, they show no respect to their opposition and they trust in their own ability.

We have a management team so restricted by fear and so obsessed with an outdated system that the country now thinks our players are a lot poorer than they actually are.

I guarantee that if we adopted an approach similar to Mayo or the current Kerry and Donegal teams that we wouldn't be far away at the end of the year, plus our players may actually start enjoy playing and our supporters may actually be treated to some proper football."
You forgot sean cavanagh, conor gormley, ryan mellon, philip jordon, ryan mc and enda mcginley.

I do take your point re negative football but that is becasuse you do not have much talent. Harte, donnelly and colm cavanagh are good

Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 326 - 15/02/2018 16:29:44    2077157

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Replying To riverboys:  "I think Tyrone need to change the colours on their jerseys, white or red can seem deceptive when putting 15 behind the ball, they stand out a mile but if you are wearing sky blue, green and red, green or gold, maroon, white and blue etc those colours blend into the grass and you can't see them putting 15 behind the ball even though you can see it clearly, sugar there must be something wrong with our eyesight, yes Tyrone are not the only team putting 15 behind the ball, nearly every team is doing it, I think this all boils down to Sean Cavanagh dragging down Conor McManus in front of the goals and Joe Brolly calling him a cheat on RTE even though every player in any sport would do the same to avoid giving away a goal, he nor RTE ever apologised for it, that was bad enough but the comments he made about Marty Morrissey meant he should have got his P45, that along with Ciaran Wallop Whelan's comments about Lee Keegan and trying to influence a ref on national TV while being paid by the national broadcaster before an All Ireland Final replay was disgraceful, both should have been sacked, after last Sunday TV programme Tomas O'Se isn't too far behind them"
You forgot James wallop Horan if you want to talk about highlighting players and influencing.
Now, wind it back in there lad.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 560 - 15/02/2018 16:57:26    2077166

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Replying To ziggy320001:  "Mickey Harte sounds like Jose Mourinho tbh.."
Agree - sick to the back teeth of Harte - been a fan in the past of him and Tyrone football but not anymore. Sick of his constant whining and the way he has good footballers ruined by his failed system - was good 10 years ago not now - he hasn't learned nor moved on - esp after the embarrassment of last year!!! Funny I see big Sean on Sunday Game when he's freed from Mickeys clutches - that shows me that the players are being forced to comply to Hartes autocracy - why does Tyrone County Board continue with this - he's had his day - fair play, pat on back but move on!!!

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1036 - 15/02/2018 17:05:23    2077169

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Replying To ziggy320001:  "Mickey Harte sounds like Jose Mourinho tbh.."
Agree - sick to the back teeth of Harte - been a fan in the past of him and Tyrone football but not anymore. Sick of his constant whining and the way he has good footballers ruined by his failed system - was good 10 years ago not now - he hasn't learned nor moved on - esp after the embarrassment of last year!!! Funny I see big Sean on Sunday Game when he's freed from Mickeys clutches - that shows me that the players are being forced to comply to Hartes autocracy - why does Tyrone County Board continue with this - he's had his day - fair play, pat on back but move on!!!

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1036 - 15/02/2018 17:14:49    2077175

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There's no anti-Tyrone agenda, he's either paranoid or he's still trying the 'it's us v the world' tactic, I'm sorry Mickey but only works when you have players good enough to win an AI. Now Tyrone have some very good players without a doubt but are they good enough to challenge the top teams in an All-Ireland final.....I think they're just a step or two off that.

It's worth noting though that Mickey Harte brought extraordinary success to Tyrone, he managed them to all 3 of their AI successes. But with that perhaps unrealistic expectations have possibly set in, Tyrone will have their day again, but they won't be an ever-present threat.

Patience is required, paranoia won't help so much.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7886 - 15/02/2018 18:32:59    2077201

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Tyrone have the players, it just looks to me that they are to regimental and not willing to take the chances that come along

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2440 - 15/02/2018 18:55:45    2077207

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Replying To hipster:  "Tyrone have the players, it just looks to me that they are to regimental and not willing to take the chances that come along"
Exactly hipster and who calls the shots?

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1036 - 15/02/2018 19:02:15    2077210

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Replying To Bernardo:  "You forgot sean cavanagh, conor gormley, ryan mellon, philip jordon, ryan mc and enda mcginley.

I do take your point re negative football but that is becasuse you do not have much talent. Harte, donnelly and colm cavanagh are good"
Ryan Mellon? Seriously?

You could argue for Sean Cavangh but i honestly think Tiernan McCann, Peter Harte, Mattie Donnelly and Colm Cavangh are every bit as good as those other players you mentioned.

It was the success that made them house hold names and their attitude set them apart. But talent wise our current crop are just as good.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts: 415 - 15/02/2018 19:08:51    2077215

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Replying To Wally:  "Ryan Mellon? Seriously?

You could argue for Sean Cavangh but i honestly think Tiernan McCann, Peter Harte, Mattie Donnelly and Colm Cavangh are every bit as good as those other players you mentioned.

It was the success that made them house hold names and their attitude set them apart. But talent wise our current crop are just as good."
We agree to differ. Young dooher wa a good player.

Canavan, o'neill and cavanagh full forwards better than any forwards today or who would you drop above and who would replace them,?

Think tyrone v monaghan winner in the championship will win ulster. Tyrone should win by 1pt. Think both teams will make to last 8 and tyrone will be beaten In semi final by either dublin, mayo or kerry.

Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 326 - 15/02/2018 19:59:37    2077226

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I would agree with Mickey to a point, they were very good last year until they met a superb Dublin team that just blew them away. They are not the first team to have that happen to them and they won't be the last. While they are not a patch on the 03-08 team, I think Tyrone could beat anybody bar Dublin on their day.

The lack of a proven marquee forward is definitely an issue, as others have already said, there is no Canavan or O'Neill on this team. I can't think of an All Ireland winner in the recent past without at least one forward of this caliber. Some of the Tyrone posters seem sure that the players are there, perhaps they are but I am only going on what I have seen of them playing on the TV and in recent games with Kerry that I have attended. I don't think any of their current forwards bar Peter Harte would make their great team, and he is more in the Dooher or Mcguigan mould than an out and out marksman.

The criticism they get at times is OTT for me, although MH can be petty in his rebuttals of late which may be fuelling some of it. He would do well to ignore it or pin it on the dressing room wall to get a response from his players. Getting in to public tit for tat stuff with Joe Brolly and the like is not helping anybody.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 641 - 15/02/2018 20:31:00    2077240

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Replying To Wally:  "Ryan Mellon? Seriously?

You could argue for Sean Cavangh but i honestly think Tiernan McCann, Peter Harte, Mattie Donnelly and Colm Cavangh are every bit as good as those other players you mentioned.

It was the success that made them house hold names and their attitude set them apart. But talent wise our current crop are just as good."
2005 winning team: McConnell; R McMenamin, J McMahon, M McGee; D Harte, C Gormley, P Jordan; E McGinley, S Cavanagh; B Dooher (0-1), B McGuigan (0-3), R Mellon (0-2); P Canavan (1-1), S O'Neill (0-4), O Mulligan (0-4)

Team vs Dublin last year: Morgan; Aidan McCrory, Ronan McNamee, Cathal McCarron; Tiernan McCann, Padraig Hampsey; Peter Harte; Colm Cavanagh, Conall McCann; David Mulgrew, Niall Sudden, Kieran McGeary; Mark Bradley, Sean Cavanagh, Matthew Donnelly.

I think your argument is dead in the water.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 1195 - 15/02/2018 20:51:38    2077247

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Replying To Wally:  ""I would love somebody to challenge it because it needs to be challenged," the Errigal Ciaran man, who hasn't spoken to RTE since 2011, is quoted saying by the Donegal Democrat.

"There are signs of an agenda against Tyrone where there is just continuous talk of how many people we have behind the ball.

"And I have watched many matches and I see the very same thing happening to other teams yet the count isn't on always.

"So maybe all those people who are making all those comments relentlessly might need to take a step back and see are they really independent thinkers or are they just having other people think for them."

Yes Mickey, it is always someone else's fault.

No I don't have other people think for me. I can see for myself thank you. This condescending attitude is really starting to get me and a lot of others Tyrone supporters angry now.

Whether you like it or not, Dublin, Mayo and the current Donegal and Kerry teams play a lot more expansive and attractive type of football than Tyrone. We are extremely hard to watch playing the way we do.

There is no hidden agenda. It is just fact!

Maybe stop trying to convince everyone that we don't really know what we are watching and possibly try to start listening to your piers and fellow county men and for gods sake let our players actually play football.

We have some of the most talented players in the country at our disposal, backed up with one of the best set-ups that any county has, yet we are now losing full generations of players to this horrible system."
Do Dublin get men behind the ball? It was proved from the other night they do. Same as 2011. Same at 2016.

Mickey thinks there is an agenda against Tyrone in the media. I feel there is. As someone else said stick an article up about Tyrone and it will sell. Let's not get started on Brolly. There have been many examples of the media portraying Tyrone and their clubs as thugs and the bringing negativity to the game.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 1195 - 15/02/2018 21:01:39    2077250

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Replying To gotmilk:  "He is right though. Watch Kerry, Dublin, Mayo etc and they all flood players back. I saw a clip from the recent league game between Tyrone & Dublin and every player was inside their own 45. The difference between Tyrone and the Dublin and Kerrys is they don't have that player that will always put the ball over the bar. They don't have a clutch type player that you know will produce the goods. The QF against Mayo two years ago is the perfect example. Better side, numerous chances to win that game but how many wides did they hit. McCurry, Ronan O'Neill and from what I've seen of Brennan have the potential to be world beaters but when the pressure is on they choke. Tyrone scored 6-77 in 4 games last year before they played Dublin. 6-77 That's more than 1-20 per game if my maths is right over those 4 games. Tyrone aren't a defensive side in that they don't attack, Tyrone are a side that don't have any clutch players and that is the problem facing Tyrone. Until they get that player that can slot the ball over the bar in a tight game they aren't going anywhere in a hurry.

Mickey Harte is 100% spot on when he says there is an agenda here. Tyrone play the same template as Dublin & Kerry yet Tyrone are accused of being defensive where as the other 2 are lauded as attacking purists."
Couldn't put it better myself

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 1195 - 15/02/2018 21:03:59    2077251

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "2005 winning team: McConnell; R McMenamin, J McMahon, M McGee; D Harte, C Gormley, P Jordan; E McGinley, S Cavanagh; B Dooher (0-1), B McGuigan (0-3), R Mellon (0-2); P Canavan (1-1), S O'Neill (0-4), O Mulligan (0-4)

Team vs Dublin last year: Morgan; Aidan McCrory, Ronan McNamee, Cathal McCarron; Tiernan McCann, Padraig Hampsey; Peter Harte; Colm Cavanagh, Conall McCann; David Mulgrew, Niall Sudden, Kieran McGeary; Mark Bradley, Sean Cavanagh, Matthew Donnelly.

I think your argument is dead in the water."
Jaysus that 2005 Tyrone team was something else! To be fair the current team is good, they'd beat most teams in Ireland but I couldn't see them living with the 2005 team, totally different animals.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 7886 - 15/02/2018 21:08:55    2077254

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "2005 winning team: McConnell; R McMenamin, J McMahon, M McGee; D Harte, C Gormley, P Jordan; E McGinley, S Cavanagh; B Dooher (0-1), B McGuigan (0-3), R Mellon (0-2); P Canavan (1-1), S O'Neill (0-4), O Mulligan (0-4)

Team vs Dublin last year: Morgan; Aidan McCrory, Ronan McNamee, Cathal McCarron; Tiernan McCann, Padraig Hampsey; Peter Harte; Colm Cavanagh, Conall McCann; David Mulgrew, Niall Sudden, Kieran McGeary; Mark Bradley, Sean Cavanagh, Matthew Donnelly.

I think your argument is dead in the water."
Good counter argument. Just name the team from 05. Really well thought out.

I think i was clear in my assessment that we dont have an O'Neill or Canavan, Mayo dont have these players either but it doesn't stop them from playing with abandon and actually attacking the Dublins and Kerrys of this world.

We had some great footballers in 05 but the environment which they played in created the ability to be great. They knew they could fully commit to the attack without any fear that they may break from the system.

On the contrary our players are in a system that stifles creativity so much that they literally dont know what to do once plan A doesnt work out.

Listen i played with and against most of the Tyrone team of the noughties at club level and skill wise the young lads we have right now are just as good. The difference is down to the system they play and the trust they have in each other and the trust the manager has in them, which appears to be none.

What about you name the team of 08. On paper was that team world beaters?

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts: 415 - 15/02/2018 22:19:49    2077282

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Replying To Htaem:  "Jaysus that 2005 Tyrone team was something else! To be fair the current team is good, they'd beat most teams in Ireland but I couldn't see them living with the 2005 team, totally different animals."
you just cant compare the noughties team with now. those guys were allowed to express themselves and be the best they could but the current crop are being turned into robots by a paranoid dictator. so much wasted talent. i attend alot of club football in tyrone and i can tell u now the standard is excellent. only a few clubs have copied the harte template. most games are open and forwards allowed to do their stuff, defenders also. ive said it before but harte has stayed at least 6 yrs too long. the football people of tyrone deserve better.

southtyronegael (Tyrone) - Posts: 19 - 15/02/2018 22:37:00    2077287

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Replying To IrishGael3:  "Exactly hipster and who calls the shots?"
I think micky harte is there to long, they need a new manager with fresh ideas who will look at other players and give things a right shake, i am not slagging off micky harte but things do have to come to an end

hipster (Dublin) - Posts: 2440 - 15/02/2018 22:45:22    2077291

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Tyrone are not as good as Dublin or Kerry at present. That could apply to a lot of counties though!

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 829 - 15/02/2018 22:59:23    2077294

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