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Just to clear up a load of nonsense here lads. The panel 100% did not train Christmas day. They trained Christmas eve. Then had a few days off. Not saying i agree with that either but i just think posters should know the truth!
Davy and his system are getting a lot of flack here and some of it is 100% valid but I cant see how people are questioning progress!! Just think about going to offaly knowing we'd win as opposed to hoping!! That for me is progress anyway, it might not have stats attached to it but we have progressed and anyone who denies it is deluded in my view.
The big thing I can see is that yes we could be better going forward but its not sll the fault of the sweeper. It is hard to get the ball to our forwards but its not hard to just not hit it to their backs!( sounds simplistic because it is)
The problem I see is we try to play 2 ways at the same time. For me playing a sweeper or a deep half forward line are mutually exclusive!! We do both. Having a sweeper gives an extra defender to us and them! Why can they succeed at 6 v 7 and we cant at 5 v 6?
There are 2 reasons as I see it. Most top teams have forwards who move way more intelligently than ours do and secondly they maintain a certain shape, which we do not. All our running is random and backs need time they dont have to find their men.
This leads to my final point. We are not as good as many think, I do not take pleasure in saying it. We often over rate our players in a national sense which leads to high expectations. This leads to the horrible feeling we get when we lose and we find the closest thing to blame. I dont like the sweeper as style because it makes games boring but i dont think we can blame it 100% for our failure.
PS- wanting Davy witout the sweeper is not very likely to work.
hurler101 (Wexford) - Posts: 471 - 17/07/2018 12:42:41
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Replying To hurler101: "Just to clear up a load of nonsense here lads. The panel 100% did not train Christmas day. They trained Christmas eve. Then had a few days off. Not saying i agree with that either but i just think posters should know the truth!
Davy and his system are getting a lot of flack here and some of it is 100% valid but I cant see how people are questioning progress!! Just think about going to offaly knowing we'd win as opposed to hoping!! That for me is progress anyway, it might not have stats attached to it but we have progressed and anyone who denies it is deluded in my view.
The big thing I can see is that yes we could be better going forward but its not sll the fault of the sweeper. It is hard to get the ball to our forwards but its not hard to just not hit it to their backs!( sounds simplistic because it is)
The problem I see is we try to play 2 ways at the same time. For me playing a sweeper or a deep half forward line are mutually exclusive!! We do both. Having a sweeper gives an extra defender to us and them! Why can they succeed at 6 v 7 and we cant at 5 v 6?
There are 2 reasons as I see it. Most top teams have forwards who move way more intelligently than ours do and secondly they maintain a certain shape, which we do not. All our running is random and backs need time they dont have to find their men.
This leads to my final point. We are not as good as many think, I do not take pleasure in saying it. We often over rate our players in a national sense which leads to high expectations. This leads to the horrible feeling we get when we lose and we find the closest thing to blame. I dont like the sweeper as style because it makes games boring but i dont think we can blame it 100% for our failure.
PS- wanting Davy witout the sweeper is not very likely to work." I for one am not questioning if we have progressed we clearly have its more the questions are we going to progress further playing the sweeper system.
wexcore (Wexford) - Posts: 740 - 17/07/2018 13:04:41
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Replying To Viking66: "Alot of us dont have the same interest in the senior club scene because our local clubs arent senior. And club matches are spread out from fri evening all over the weekend noone works all day Saturday and Sunday every Saturday and Sunday......." well you dont know too many farmers den do ya
gusseraneman (Wexford) - Posts: 521 - 17/07/2018 13:51:55
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lads be honest,who here thinks we made any bit of progress this year.we made progress last year,but none this year.
we were bet out the gate by a galway team pulling up.
whether or not we trained on christmas eve or christmas day or whenever is irrelevant.when the chips are down,in june july,over the last 2 years we were flat and wore out.we have over trained and the team look tired when championship comes around.
it was important to stay in 1a,which we did.but not at the extent of a decent championship.
the worst part is,we have the players.maybe not to win an all-ireland,but 100% i think ryan,o keefe,mcdonald and rory o connor,etc are as good as the top players in galway,cork and kilkenny.
remember when we bet clare in 2013?high ball in to mcdonald,caught it,goal.
we are good enough to play 15v15,i think something or someone has them convinced they arent.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 17/07/2018 14:38:29
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Replying To perfect10: "lads be honest,who here thinks we made any bit of progress this year.we made progress last year,but none this year.
we were bet out the gate by a galway team pulling up.
whether or not we trained on christmas eve or christmas day or whenever is irrelevant.when the chips are down,in june july,over the last 2 years we were flat and wore out.we have over trained and the team look tired when championship comes around.
it was important to stay in 1a,which we did.but not at the extent of a decent championship.
the worst part is,we have the players.maybe not to win an all-ireland,but 100% i think ryan,o keefe,mcdonald and rory o connor,etc are as good as the top players in galway,cork and kilkenny.
remember when we bet clare in 2013?high ball in to mcdonald,caught it,goal.
we are good enough to play 15v15,i think something or someone has them convinced they arent." Perfect10, I'm getting worried now, that's twice in the last few weeks that I agree with you !!!
Progress this year ? No.
As I posted previously, we've lost all the big games in league ( semi-final) and championship this year. People can dress it up however they like but that's not progress.
yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 17/07/2018 15:26:12
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Replying To yelowbelly: "Perfect10, I'm getting worried now, that's twice in the last few weeks that I agree with you !!!
Progress this year ? No.
As I posted previously, we've lost all the big games in league ( semi-final) and championship this year. People can dress it up however they like but that's not progress." I disagree. We stayed in 1a which was progress in itself. We lost a de facto Leinster semifinal away in Nowlan Park by just 1 point which was also an achievement if bitterly disappointing at the time. And for the 1st time in god knows how long we were actually in with a shout of winning an AIQF in the closing minutes. Against a much improved Clare team most of whom have AI medals already won in 2013. Just 3 years ago we were struggling against Laois and losing to Offaly. Anyone who thinks its possible to go from that to beating all the big teams and winning all the big games in just 3 years is away with the fairies. Im as disappointed as anyone else we didnt win in Nowlan Park. And down in Cork. But last year we had already lost the leinster final and the AIQF after just 45 minutes. This year there was just the puck of a ball between us and Clare going into injury time and its hard not to feel we left the game behind us when you factor in the poor wides and Clare scores direct from poor clearances.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12046 - 17/07/2018 15:59:24
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Replying To yelowbelly: "Perfect10, I'm getting worried now, that's twice in the last few weeks that I agree with you !!!
Progress this year ? No.
As I posted previously, we've lost all the big games in league ( semi-final) and championship this year. People can dress it up however they like but that's not progress." I disagree. We stayed in 1a which was progress in itself. We lost a de facto Leinster semifinal away in Nowlan Park by just 1 point which was also an achievement if bitterly disappointing at the time. And for the 1st time in god knows how long we were actually in with a shout of winning an AIQF in the closing minutes. Against a much improved Clare team most of whom have AI medals already won in 2013. Just 3 years ago we were struggling against Laois and losing to Offaly. Anyone who thinks its possible to go from that to beating all the big teams and winning all the big games in just 3 years is away with the fairies. Im as disappointed as anyone else we didnt win in Nowlan Park. And down in Cork. But last year we had already lost the leinster final and the AIQF after just 45 minutes. This year there was just the puck of a ball between us and Clare going into injury time and its hard not to feel we left the game behind us when you factor in the poor wides and Clare scores direct from poor clearances.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12046 - 17/07/2018 15:59:43
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Replying To james2011: "hugely disappointing for a number of reasons. Players looked out of form, touch was brutal, fitness didnt look great. No spark, no drive. That comes from the top. The sweeper tactics werent the reason we lost though, it was poor play. The sweeper might be an awful system, but it wasnt the defining factor on Saturday.
A small point on the utterly dismal attendance too, we have to be one of the worst bandwagoning supporters around. Shocking attendance. Bar an incident at Castlemartyr that caused a bit of traffic backlog, parking near the ground, getting to it and getting out after was no worse than anywhere else. To be honest, probably even a bit better than normal considering damn all turned up. 15,000 showing up at the better time and venue the following day, between 2 counties bordering Tipp shows that the time and venue made damn all difference at all. It was pathetic, and it is just excuses being trotted out about the time and venue being an issue. 28,000 went to Cork to watch Clare and Tipp on a Saturday afternoon last year.
I bet if we won though we'd hear plenty of Wexford fans moaning they couldnt get tickets and how unfair it all was." James
On a wet day there was only 18,350 in Thurles (yet it was akmost double what was in Pairc Ui Caoimh). Most double header quarter finals in Thurles on a Sunday would have drawn around the 35,000 mark. For whatever reason Kilkenny seemed to have shocking poor support last Sunday. There was almost 24,000 in the Gaelic Grounds at Limerick and Waterford and 34,000 in Pairc Ui Caoimh at Limerick/Cork and both games were only early championship League games. Turnout was indeed very poor at both quarter finals.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4340 - 17/07/2018 16:36:37
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Replying To Viking66: "I disagree. We stayed in 1a which was progress in itself. We lost a de facto Leinster semifinal away in Nowlan Park by just 1 point which was also an achievement if bitterly disappointing at the time. And for the 1st time in god knows how long we were actually in with a shout of winning an AIQF in the closing minutes. Against a much improved Clare team most of whom have AI medals already won in 2013. Just 3 years ago we were struggling against Laois and losing to Offaly. Anyone who thinks its possible to go from that to beating all the big teams and winning all the big games in just 3 years is away with the fairies. Im as disappointed as anyone else we didnt win in Nowlan Park. And down in Cork. But last year we had already lost the leinster final and the AIQF after just 45 minutes. This year there was just the puck of a ball between us and Clare going into injury time and its hard not to feel we left the game behind us when you factor in the poor wides and Clare scores direct from poor clearances." I'd like to know what you mean by away with the fairies ? In my (humble) opinion, anyone who needs to use the excuses you have to deem this year an improvement is deluded. The bottom line is that we lost those games, dress it up however you like but that's the bottom line.
yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 17/07/2018 16:46:32
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Replying To perfect10: "lads be honest,who here thinks we made any bit of progress this year.we made progress last year,but none this year.
we were bet out the gate by a galway team pulling up.
whether or not we trained on christmas eve or christmas day or whenever is irrelevant.when the chips are down,in june july,over the last 2 years we were flat and wore out.we have over trained and the team look tired when championship comes around.
it was important to stay in 1a,which we did.but not at the extent of a decent championship.
the worst part is,we have the players.maybe not to win an all-ireland,but 100% i think ryan,o keefe,mcdonald and rory o connor,etc are as good as the top players in galway,cork and kilkenny.
remember when we bet clare in 2013?high ball in to mcdonald,caught it,goal.
we are good enough to play 15v15,i think something or someone has them convinced they arent." I think the same bout ryan mc and oconnor as being our best hurlers by far i think ryan is best of the lot but not sure where they all fit in outside wexford!!okeeffe is a average hurler and our 2 corner backs are average to along with midfield and be honest about it because its true!! We wont win anything with two good forwards we just wont,davy is right to play the sweeper because we would be destroyed other wise its bad enough with it,and to be fair we aint good enough at the sweeper system either,especially when u play a sweeper not good enough!! I think we are as good as we have shown under davy and thats as good as it gets,yea we took a few scalps in the league,beat kilkenny last year when they were in big bother with injuries and all over the place!! Winning in they league is one thing but cship is what its about!! We are fitter than ever yes but the quality of hurling and the results are the same!!i always say if ur able to get 20 lads that can hurl catch tackle and win ur own patch and forwards that go at backs and can take scores u wont be to far away and we havnt got enough of em unfortunately!!we beat westmeath dublin and offaly and top teams destroyed us in cship and thats it!!!i think if we went 15 on 15 we would be in serious bother!!
theboys (Wexford) - Posts: 215 - 17/07/2018 16:48:49
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Replying To yelowbelly: "I'd like to know what you mean by away with the fairies ? In my (humble) opinion, anyone who needs to use the excuses you have to deem this year an improvement is deluded. The bottom line is that we lost those games, dress it up however you like but that's the bottom line." Sorry Yelowbelly but I am with Viking on the progress point.
I am still disappointed and want us to win and do better.
However Re Progress - I'd argue there's a lot of different stages between where we were 4/5 years ago and winning an all-ireland.
I think we are better than last year but still not good enough to be all ireland contenders.
Punter72007 (Wexford) - Posts: 315 - 17/07/2018 18:19:01
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Replying To Punter72007: "Sorry Yelowbelly but I am with Viking on the progress point.
I am still disappointed and want us to win and do better.
However Re Progress - I'd argue there's a lot of different stages between where we were 4/5 years ago and winning an all-ireland.
I think we are better than last year but still not good enough to be all ireland contenders." Overall there has been small progress over the last two years, but not in the championship. We got to a championship quarter final the year before Davy arrived. We were beaten by Waterford and if I'm not mistaken by about seven or eight points. As regards the league, ask Galway how important it is to be in 1a. League and championship are poles apart.
gminor (Wexford) - Posts: 488 - 17/07/2018 19:52:02
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Replying To Punter72007: "Sorry Yelowbelly but I am with Viking on the progress point.
I am still disappointed and want us to win and do better.
However Re Progress - I'd argue there's a lot of different stages between where we were 4/5 years ago and winning an all-ireland.
I think we are better than last year but still not good enough to be all ireland contenders." It seems that we'll just have to agree to differ on this one !!!
Success (or improvement) can only be measured by results, and however you analyse this year's results they haven't improved on last year. Of course individuals will cite certain performances and claim to see improvement. I don't, but that's the beauty of discussion boards like this. We all have different opinions, some of us have different ideas on how we evaluate success or improvement.
But , as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to championship it's a results-driven business, and I cannot see that improvement.
yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 17/07/2018 20:17:55
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Replying To yelowbelly: "It seems that we'll just have to agree to differ on this one !!!
Success (or improvement) can only be measured by results, and however you analyse this year's results they haven't improved on last year. Of course individuals will cite certain performances and claim to see improvement. I don't, but that's the beauty of discussion boards like this. We all have different opinions, some of us have different ideas on how we evaluate success or improvement.
But , as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to championship it's a results-driven business, and I cannot see that improvement." Our hurlers are fitter and in better condition than any previous teams and Davy must get full credit for that, but It's my contention that the system is holding back as hurlers. We have good quality players on every line but they are smothered by the system. Both teams seemed to have the same idea to crowd out midfield and the proof of that is all four starting midfielders we replaced, which is the first time I ever remember that happening at a senior championship game. They weren't replaced because they were exhausted, it was because they couldn't get on the ball as the middle third was just swamped with bodies leaving no room for players to set up attacks from that area.
gminor (Wexford) - Posts: 488 - 18/07/2018 00:03:37
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Replying To Viking66: "I disagree. We stayed in 1a which was progress in itself. We lost a de facto Leinster semifinal away in Nowlan Park by just 1 point which was also an achievement if bitterly disappointing at the time. And for the 1st time in god knows how long we were actually in with a shout of winning an AIQF in the closing minutes. Against a much improved Clare team most of whom have AI medals already won in 2013. Just 3 years ago we were struggling against Laois and losing to Offaly. Anyone who thinks its possible to go from that to beating all the big teams and winning all the big games in just 3 years is away with the fairies. Im as disappointed as anyone else we didnt win in Nowlan Park. And down in Cork. But last year we had already lost the leinster final and the AIQF after just 45 minutes. This year there was just the puck of a ball between us and Clare going into injury time and its hard not to feel we left the game behind us when you factor in the poor wides and Clare scores direct from poor clearances." Sorry I totally disagree.
You did not leave the game behind you. Stevie Wonder could see that Clare were far and away the better team last week.
Davy did a great job last year with ye. But you have plateaued this year while other teams have improved. This is the long and short of it. I have seen people say the sweeper is dead etc...I don't agree - I think it suits some teams. To me it seems like the long season caught up with ye. This unfortunately was also a trait of Davy's Clare from 2014-2016 - we were gassed come the championship.
Davy's biggest problem is he struggles to get his teams to peak that the right time with 2013 being an obvious exception.
LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2490 - 18/07/2018 02:58:56
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Replying To LohansRedHelmet: "Sorry I totally disagree.
You did not leave the game behind you. Stevie Wonder could see that Clare were far and away the better team last week.
Davy did a great job last year with ye. But you have plateaued this year while other teams have improved. This is the long and short of it. I have seen people say the sweeper is dead etc...I don't agree - I think it suits some teams. To me it seems like the long season caught up with ye. This unfortunately was also a trait of Davy's Clare from 2014-2016 - we were gassed come the championship.
Davy's biggest problem is he struggles to get his teams to peak that the right time with 2013 being an obvious exception." Well said Sir
yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 18/07/2018 08:54:17
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but can somebody answer me this,what good is a sweeper doing when
1. the ball is flying over the bar from wings/45-70 yards out.there are enough people to watch it sail over the bar,a sweeper doesnt need to wave a white flag but in that situation,he might as well.
2. people say goals win games,but yet points have beaten us for the past 2 years?we have had 25-30 points scored against us almost every day.
3. our top forwards,mcdonald and o connor,are fighting a losing and outnumbered battle at the other end.we carry no goal threat and our point threat is snuffed out.
davys always saying 'people dont understand it',as though people are stupid.i think supporters have seen through the system and a 1-trick pony has been left behind.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 18/07/2018 08:57:42
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Replying To LohansRedHelmet: "Sorry I totally disagree.
You did not leave the game behind you. Stevie Wonder could see that Clare were far and away the better team last week.
Davy did a great job last year with ye. But you have plateaued this year while other teams have improved. This is the long and short of it. I have seen people say the sweeper is dead etc...I don't agree - I think it suits some teams. To me it seems like the long season caught up with ye. This unfortunately was also a trait of Davy's Clare from 2014-2016 - we were gassed come the championship.
Davy's biggest problem is he struggles to get his teams to peak that the right time with 2013 being an obvious exception." LohansRedHelmet (Clare) I'd agree with a lot of what you said there. Clare the better team on Saturday and usually that's the reason why one team looses. I also agree Davy did a good job last year but this year i feel teams have worked us out and they now know how to beat the system. The very best of luck v Cork.
We can talk about systems and the like but the scoreboard doesn't lie at the end of the day. Under Davy it seems that once we get knocked out of Leinster we have nothing left in the tank. The margins are tiny, one more point against KK and we would have been in a Leinster final.
Can Davy change the system, can he tweak it? Do we have to go flat out in the league? Can we adjust training and have us peaking at the right time of year.
I'm not sure getting rid of Davy is the answer either, 3 years ago under Liam Dunne Offaly came down to Wexford Park and beat us by 8pts. If Davy does decide himself to leave, we need to appoint someone from within the county.
logger (Wexford) - Posts: 297 - 18/07/2018 09:29:25
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why must it be somebody from inside the county?i only care about 1 thing-getting the best man to the job.
lets face it,we beat nobody this year.galway beat us pulling up.we were awful at the weekend,the real difference was more than 7 points.
i am not criticising the players,they have given all they can be expected to the cause.but we are good enough to go 15 on 15 and take on kk and limerick and clare man to man.
time we played winning hurling,we would be better off loosing playing it than playing boring defensive hurling and losing.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 18/07/2018 09:41:26
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Replying To perfect10: "why must it be somebody from inside the county?i only care about 1 thing-getting the best man to the job.
lets face it,we beat nobody this year.galway beat us pulling up.we were awful at the weekend,the real difference was more than 7 points.
i am not criticising the players,they have given all they can be expected to the cause.but we are good enough to go 15 on 15 and take on kk and limerick and clare man to man.
time we played winning hurling,we would be better off loosing playing it than playing boring defensive hurling and losing." Perfect 10 i'd agree with you about going 15 v 15, i'd also feel we would be good enough. My reason for appointing someone from inside the county is that all these coaches in Wexford need to see a progression path, i'm not convinced that an outside manager even if it was Daly or Sheedy would do any better... i'd feel the likes of JJ Doyle and Tom Mullay(i know he's from KK but he's been in our coaching structure for a long time) have done there time to be given a shot at the top job.
Anyway i think the discussion of a new manager doesn't need to happen, judging by the article below i reckon Davy will do another year. The players want him to stay and the coin is good.
http://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/288027
logger (Wexford) - Posts: 297 - 18/07/2018 10:27:50
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