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CCCC hurling proposals change tier 2 teams status

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So I'm heartened to see that it looks like counties such as Clare are not supporting the proposed changes, see article: http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=276045

From the article above, it appears there's increasing support for a Dublin motion, which doesn't change the provincial championships, and doesn't reduce the number of teams in the AI competition. Instead, it just proposes having 4 quarter-finals, rather than the current 2 (so ACTUAL quarter-finals). I think this is the most sensible proposal, and if any proposal is accepted, I hope its this one.

For the record, I'm not against radical changes to the championship, but only if they're an improvement. The CCCC changes are not an improvement, and would be damaging to hurling overall (the more I think about them, the worse they seem). FWIW, I'm no fan of the Tipp motion either. So here's hoping that if any motion is voted in, its the Dublin one.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 22/09/2017 20:24:43    2049432

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "So I'm heartened to see that it looks like counties such as Clare are not supporting the proposed changes, see article: http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=276045

From the article above, it appears there's increasing support for a Dublin motion, which doesn't change the provincial championships, and doesn't reduce the number of teams in the AI competition. Instead, it just proposes having 4 quarter-finals, rather than the current 2 (so ACTUAL quarter-finals). I think this is the most sensible proposal, and if any proposal is accepted, I hope its this one.

For the record, I'm not against radical changes to the championship, but only if they're an improvement. The CCCC changes are not an improvement, and would be damaging to hurling overall (the more I think about them, the worse they seem). FWIW, I'm no fan of the Tipp motion either. So here's hoping that if any motion is voted in, its the Dublin one."
The status quo is better than Dublin's proposal. Provincial champions get an advantage over the team they beat in the final. Teams not making their Provincial final only have to win 1 game to get to the same stage. The standard of the games will be worse too. Change would be for changes sake also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 22/09/2017 20:56:46    2049436

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The status quo is better than Dublin's proposal. Provincial champions get an advantage over the team they beat in the final. Teams not making their Provincial final only have to win 1 game to get to the same stage. The standard of the games will be worse too. Change would be for changes sake also."
I get what you mean, but teams may have 2 very different routes to the provincial finals. For example, one side of the Munster draw is always harder than the other. Cork had to beat Tipp and Waterford to just get to a Munster final this year, Clare just had to play a semi. Paths to Leinster and Munster finals may vary in difficulty as well, going both ways.

Long story short, some teams can currently get a much easier route to an AI semi than others, depending on the draw. The provincial system has a lot of inequalities and anomalies. Having all teams play a quarter-final evens things up, and ensures that no one team gets an easier route to an AI semi than other teams. You could still reward the provincial champions by giving them a home draw in the semi's.

And best part, 4 pretty amazing matches. This year you would have had
QF Pool 1: Galway (Home advantage), Cork (Home advantage), Wexford, Clare
to be matched with
QF Pool 2: Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford, Limerick

I think thats an improvement

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 22/09/2017 22:57:01    2049473

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Status Quo has 2 teams to AI SFs, Dublin's Plan has none - Split the difference ?
Front Door extended by 1 rd -
Prov Champs playoff for 1 SF berth, loser to 3 QFs.
10 other teams play groups of 3, 3 (6 non-Champ SFlists) and 4 (non-SFlists).
5 advance to QFs with 2, 2 and 1 advancing.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 25/09/2017 04:12:37    2050143

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Ultimately, I'd prefer '6 plays 6' or '5 plays 5' with KO Prov Championships retained.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 25/09/2017 04:17:17    2050144

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https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0929/908516-to-tinker-or-not-to-tinker-hurling/

kerryluck (Kerry) - Posts: 2517 - 29/09/2017 16:25:53    2051746

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Replying To kerryluck:  "https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0929/908516-to-tinker-or-not-to-tinker-hurling/"
Hopefully that bias in favour of maintenance follows through.. Hard to be certain..

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 29/09/2017 16:53:07    2051757

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Dublins motion is the best....4 qtr finals eight teams....like what it was over 10 years ago

preddan (Kildare) - Posts: 735 - 29/09/2017 23:27:54    2051837

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Central council get their way

Laois Carlow Westmeath Kerry have just been relegated by a vote

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 30/09/2017 13:18:52    2051916

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Cannot believe how comfortably this was passed! This is a complete punch in the guts to small counties trying to promote hurling.

I have no doubt that if one of the 'established' counties have a bad season and get demoted with this system, the rules will be diddled to let them stay up.

Morty (Westmeath) - Posts: 209 - 30/09/2017 13:39:03    2051917

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Replying To carlovia:  "Central council get their way

Laois Carlow Westmeath Kerry have just been relegated by a vote"
Not true! They'll be in the Mac Carthy Cup in Tier 2 (six teams: Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Laois, Meath, Westmeath) with the top two of them going directly to a preliminary quarter final. This is the best possible outcome from today's special congress for those teams. In fact, the top two Tier 2 teams will be in a better position than the fourth and fifth teams in Munster and Leinster who are eliminated.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 30/09/2017 13:45:38    2051919

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I think the proposals as I've read them are a total joke. You could play 7 games to win an all Ireland and play the same team 3 times (more if a replay). Or am I reading it all wrong?

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 30/09/2017 13:51:52    2051921

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "Not true! They'll be in the Mac Carthy Cup in Tier 2 (six teams: Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Laois, Meath, Westmeath) with the top two of them going directly to a preliminary quarter final. This is the best possible outcome from today's special congress for those teams. In fact, the top two Tier 2 teams will be in a better position than the fourth and fifth teams in Munster and Leinster who are eliminated."
Thankfully the amendment got put through so we will have 2 of 6 teams allowed in.

It was 2 from 4 but at least its not the disaster that central council wanted

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 30/09/2017 13:52:49    2051922

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Replying To tiobraid:  "I think the proposals as I've read them are a total joke. You could play 7 games to win an all Ireland and play the same team 3 times (more if a replay). Or am I reading it all wrong?"
I think you could even have a team needing 8 games not counting replays. 4 group games, Provincial final, quarterfinal, semifinal, final.

It gives teams more games, which hopefully is a good thing. I think we have to wait and see how it plays out now. A team can lose a lot of matches now and win the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 30/09/2017 14:24:29    2051926

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Replying To carlovia:  "Thankfully the amendment got put through so we will have 2 of 6 teams allowed in.

It was 2 from 4 but at least its not the disaster that central council wanted"
The two teams that get through are getting to the last eight of the championship - an advance on the current situation where they get to the last twelve. In fact, it's dubious if it's fair as the top two Tier 2 teams almost certainly will not be among the top eight teams in the championship. It's very likely that the preliminary quarter finals will be very one-sided affairs with the third-placed team from a provincial group winning easily and there'll be a clamour to change this.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 30/09/2017 14:44:56    2051929

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think you could even have a team needing 8 games not counting replays. 4 group games, Provincial final, quarterfinal, semifinal, final.

It gives teams more games, which hopefully is a good thing. I think we have to wait and see how it plays out now. A team can lose a lot of matches now and win the All Ireland."
Yes, a team can lose three games and win the All Ireland. Also the same two teams can meet three times (group game, provincial final and All Ireland final).

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 30/09/2017 15:01:32    2051930

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The two teams that get through are getting to the last eight of the championship - an advance on the current situation where they get to the last twelve. In fact, it's dubious if it's fair as the top two Tier 2 teams almost certainly will not be among the top eight teams in the championship. It's very likely that the preliminary quarter finals will be very one-sided affairs with the third-placed team from a provincial group winning easily and there'll be a clamour to change this."
Should be that the top 2 play a preliminary match against the 4th team in each provincial league.

But watch what happens if Kerry win tier 2 and relegate a Munster team !

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 30/09/2017 15:19:39    2051932

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My biggest problems with all these changes in both hurling and football are that:
1) the changes do nothing to make the championship more equitable/meaningful for counties striving for improvement
2) no finals in September will remove most of the mainstream media coverage of Gaelic games much earlier in the year. RTE, for example, can now stop their GAA coverage a whole month earlier!

football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 30/09/2017 15:24:11    2051935

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Replying To carlovia:  "Should be that the top 2 play a preliminary match against the 4th team in each provincial league.

But watch what happens if Kerry win tier 2 and relegate a Munster team !"
The way it's described on the GAA website (the blog covering the special congress) is very confusing and I see has caused interpretation problems for a number of media outlets. It states:

"The Liam MacCarthy Cup will be reduced to 10 teams and the five-team Munster and Leinster championships will be played off on a round-robin basis.

The top two teams in each provincial group would face-off in the provincial final, while the third placed teams advance to the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

The bottom two teams in either group play-off would reach the quarter-finals. The quarter-final winners play the provincial champions in the All-Ireland semi-finals.

The Tier 2 championship will include the four counties currently in the Leinster championship qualifier group and two other counties based on finishing positions in 2017 championship.

It would be run on a round-robin basis with the top two teams contesting the final. The finalists from the Tier 2 competition meet the third-placed teams in Munster and Leinster in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals.

The participants in all three lower tiers (Christy Ring/Nicky Rackard/Lory Meagher) are to be based on finishing positions in this year's championship, and they'll all be played on a round-robin basis."

The line "The bottom two teams in either group play-off would reach the quarter-finals." would suggest that the fourth and fifth teams in each group play off but that can't surely be the case. It must mean the two losing provincial finalists reach the quarter-finals?

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 30/09/2017 16:00:29    2051948

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The way it's described on the GAA website (the blog covering the special congress) is very confusing and I see has caused interpretation problems for a number of media outlets. It states:

"The Liam MacCarthy Cup will be reduced to 10 teams and the five-team Munster and Leinster championships will be played off on a round-robin basis.

The top two teams in each provincial group would face-off in the provincial final, while the third placed teams advance to the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

The bottom two teams in either group play-off would reach the quarter-finals. The quarter-final winners play the provincial champions in the All-Ireland semi-finals.

The Tier 2 championship will include the four counties currently in the Leinster championship qualifier group and two other counties based on finishing positions in 2017 championship.

It would be run on a round-robin basis with the top two teams contesting the final. The finalists from the Tier 2 competition meet the third-placed teams in Munster and Leinster in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-finals.

The participants in all three lower tiers (Christy Ring/Nicky Rackard/Lory Meagher) are to be based on finishing positions in this year's championship, and they'll all be played on a round-robin basis."

The line "The bottom two teams in either group play-off would reach the quarter-finals." would suggest that the fourth and fifth teams in each group play off but that can't surely be the case. It must mean the two losing provincial finalists reach the quarter-finals?"
Can somebody please clarify how the quarter-final pairings are decided? If the quarter-final winners meet the provincial champions in the semi-finals, that means there can only be two quarter-finals. Since the finalists of the tier 2 competition play the third placed teams in the preliminary quarter-finals then presumably the winners of these games would play the second placed teams in the quarter finals - is that it? (The statement that "the bottom two teams in either group play-off reach the quarter-finals" is completely confusing - is that just incorrect?)

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 30/09/2017 16:38:29    2051955

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