National Forum

Player Power

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Replying To Laois76:  "Loughnane was speaking as a pundit with managerial experience when commenting on O'Donoghue. A pundit is a product of his playing days, managerial experience etc. You have an inability to see the bigger picture.

And sometimes simplistic is better when it comes to winning trophies. For example, Alex Ferguson was the boss, he managed, players played and they knew where the boundaries were.They were very successful. Same with Cody, Mick O'Dwyer, Jim Gavin, Heffo etc.

Anytime you have difficulty with an opposing argument you accuse a poster of missing the point. We're discussing player power here. Everything i've mentioned in my posts on this thread is related to that point."
Sorry I am not missing the point. You referenced Loughnane who is now a pundit who likes to stir the pot, that is a fact. Who else questioned O Donoughue at the time? You pulled out a quote from a Dunphyesque pundit, that's it. This issue divides everyone, and mentioning the likes of Fergie or Cody is hardly a fair argument, 2 of the greatest of all time. Players at inter county level don't just decide they don't want a manager, more often than not they are just not up to the job.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 19/07/2017 15:21:40    2019338

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Replying To Laois76:  "2004.. Mark Little, Barry Owens, McGrath Fermanagh who had the heart problem, Tom Brewster (winning point v Armagh in quarter final), Liam McBarron (midfielder played with Kilmacud), McSherry.

This year, Ryan McCluskey (who i think was around in 2004), Sean Quigley, Tomas Corrigan, Barry Mulrone. And to be completely honest i can't name a 5th off hand!

Just shows the impression the 2004 team made."
Never had a player by the name mcsherry.

The fact you cant name 5 players on the tam (and you seem to be a more knowledgable poster) shows that those outside the county know very little about the goings on of fermanagh gaa.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 19/07/2017 15:38:56    2019345

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Really don't see how naming some of the most successful managers of all time has anything to with this thread to be honest.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 19/07/2017 15:41:25    2019346

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Replying To Damothedub:  "Do you not find it a little strange that over 30 years this man has built a reputation , one of knowledgeable and good man management , yet you have described Cunningham Dublin hurling manager in your posts. Outside of your county nobody recognises the character you have described."
Never mentioned either of those men Damo.

The rumours circulating about McGrath do not paint him in a nice light. Why do you think the players looked for him to go?

He may have built up a reputation but why was he not considered for a role in Down a few years ago when he put his hand up looking for it?

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 19/07/2017 15:54:21    2019355

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Never had a player by the name mcsherry.

The fact you cant name 5 players on the tam (and you seem to be a more knowledgable poster) shows that those outside the county know very little about the goings on of fermanagh gaa."
In fairness 4 isn't too bad!! I doubt you can name 5 Laois ones from 2017, which i know is totally irrelevant.

Interesting comments you have made about the rumours about what Pete McGrath did. Generational differences seem to be taking place more these days too of course.

What was par for the course in the 1990s may not be as acceptable to players today. Different counties and groups also react differently to the same manager. Loughnane did great work in his own county, but hadn't happy times in Galway.

I'm against player power in general but i suppose you have to add the caveat of unique circumstances in every incident. Rarely have i seen a psitive example of player power working other than Michael Bond replacing 'sheep in a heap' Babs Keating in Offaly in 1998.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 16:05:47    2019370

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I don't think anything happens in a vacuum. I think players should focus on their instructions and playing the game, with the senior lads or the leaders in the group acting as a go-between. Grievances should come to the manager via the leaders in the group. If grievances are being ignored or players feel they're not being heard, eventually you'll lose the dressing room.

Management is about massaging egos as much as anything. You could be doing the same thing in year 10 as in year 1 but if you make the lads feel like they're contributing and it's fresh, you'll have a happy enough camp.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 19/07/2017 16:18:59    2019379

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Never mentioned either of those men Damo.

The rumours circulating about McGrath do not paint him in a nice light. Why do you think the players looked for him to go?

He may have built up a reputation but why was he not considered for a role in Down a few years ago when he put his hand up looking for it?"
When I said Cunningham it was said in the context the character that's currently ruining Dublin hurling with the worst man management skills in Gaa, I know you didn't mention him , but its how McGrath is coming across in this thread.

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 19/07/2017 16:19:57    2019380

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Replying To Laois76:  "In fairness 4 isn't too bad!! I doubt you can name 5 Laois ones from 2017, which i know is totally irrelevant.

Interesting comments you have made about the rumours about what Pete McGrath did. Generational differences seem to be taking place more these days too of course.

What was par for the course in the 1990s may not be as acceptable to players today. Different counties and groups also react differently to the same manager. Loughnane did great work in his own county, but hadn't happy times in Galway.

I'm against player power in general but i suppose you have to add the caveat of unique circumstances in every incident. Rarely have i seen a psitive example of player power working other than Michael Bond replacing 'sheep in a heap' Babs Keating in Offaly in 1998."
You could argue that it worked in Waterford with their hurlers. Only all Ireland final appearance in recent memory.
Cork footballers had their hands on Sam less than two years after their strike.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 19/07/2017 16:32:01    2019390

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I think we can all agree that old style managers won't get much success at the top level these days. Cruel as that may sound.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 19/07/2017 16:45:30    2019404

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I think we can all agree that old style managers won't get much success at the top level these days. Cruel as that may sound."
I don't agree The Flaker (surprisingly says you!).

It depends on the situation. I'd say an authoritarian type could take the reins in Kilkenny and do quite well as the players are used to Cody for so long and a certain ethos has been passed down.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 17:37:26    2019452

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Replying To gotmilk:  "You could argue that it worked in Waterford with their hurlers. Only all Ireland final appearance in recent memory.
Cork footballers had their hands on Sam less than two years after their strike."
Cork footballers, yes i stand corrected, that's a good example.

I wouldn't be too sure about Waterford in 2008. Their final performance totally undid the victory they had over Tipperary in the semi. Tactics were all wrong try to physically intimidate KK. And they were just so poor. They won another Munster under Davy in 2010 but was his record any better than Justin McCarthy? Munsters in 2002, 2004, 2007 (trying to remember had he another in either 2006 or 2005).

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 17:41:11    2019455

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Replying To Damothedub:  "When I said Cunningham it was said in the context the character that's currently ruining Dublin hurling with the worst man management skills in Gaa, I know you didn't mention him , but its how McGrath is coming across in this thread."
I'm not privy to what is going on in the dressing room but the rumours I'm hearing are that his man management skills left a lot to be desired.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 19/07/2017 17:43:10    2019459

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Replying To Laois76:  "I don't agree The Flaker (surprisingly says you!).

It depends on the situation. I'd say an authoritarian type could take the reins in Kilkenny and do quite well as the players are used to Cody for so long and a certain ethos has been passed down."
I meant age profile more so as well as style of management. Pete McGrath is well past his best as a manager, so was Micko when he got the Laois and Wicklow job which had a short term reaction as the players bought into a legend no doubt. Kilkenny will probably hand the job to someone like Eddie Brennan next, very few old style and old fashioned managers will succeed at inter county level. It's the way of the world in general now.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 19/07/2017 17:44:10    2019460

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I meant age profile more so as well as style of management. Pete McGrath is well past his best as a manager, so was Micko when he got the Laois and Wicklow job which had a short term reaction as the players bought into a legend no doubt. Kilkenny will probably hand the job to someone like Eddie Brennan next, very few old style and old fashioned managers will succeed at inter county level. It's the way of the world in general now."
Yes the age profile will be naturally lower. But some of these younger men will no doubt be influenced by their older mentors.

Jim Gavin would be a youngish (45 or so) manager but i'd imagine it's his way or the highway, again his army training would come into it too.

I'm relatively young in years but my outlook is old school, i like a strong hand at the tiller! Even in work situations, while i'd consult my staff and take their opinions on board, someone ultimately has to take decisions and be in charge. Otherwise i find tasks/problems go around in circles and an air of uncertainty arises. Naturally style of management comes into that.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 18:01:03    2019470

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I meant age profile more so as well as style of management. Pete McGrath is well past his best as a manager, so was Micko when he got the Laois and Wicklow job which had a short term reaction as the players bought into a legend no doubt. Kilkenny will probably hand the job to someone like Eddie Brennan next, very few old style and old fashioned managers will succeed at inter county level. It's the way of the world in general now."
Micko got more than a short term reaction out of Laois. 3 Leinster finals in a row, 2003, 2004, 2005. All-Ireland quarters 2003, 2005 and 2006. Those were the 4 years he was in charge and remarkable consistency. Since then we got to the all-ire qualifiers once in 2012 when we were beaten by the Dubs by 3 pts under Justin McNulty.

I'm of the old fashioned opinion that it takes strong men/women to lead.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 18:05:36    2019474

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Replying To gotmilk:  "I'm not privy to what is going on in the dressing room but the rumours I'm hearing are that his man management skills left a lot to be desired."
Irish independent

There wasn't too much wrong less than 23 months ago when they were still involved in championship football, marching through the qualifiers and lauding McGrath's impact.

But when the milk turned sour, there was little time for introspection. Point your forefinger, and you'll find that three point back at you. It's up to the players to explain their stance now.

Molaise (Fermanagh) - Posts: 96 - 19/07/2017 18:28:48    2019479

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Horrible to see whenever it happens but players who oust a manager put their necks on the line big time. They look like fools if they oust a manager, hail some new lad as the messiah & still get beaten.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 19/07/2017 18:42:42    2019488

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Never had a player by the name mcsherry.

The fact you cant name 5 players on the tam (and you seem to be a more knowledgable poster) shows that those outside the county know very little about the goings on of fermanagh gaa."
Never had a player by the name mcsherry.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts:4342 - 19/07/2017 15:38:56 2019345

James Sherry in 2004. Not McSherry. A forward in 2004. Not too far off the mark.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 19/07/2017 19:55:00    2019513

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Replying To Molaise:  "Irish independent

There wasn't too much wrong less than 23 months ago when they were still involved in championship football, marching through the qualifiers and lauding McGrath's impact.

But when the milk turned sour, there was little time for introspection. Point your forefinger, and you'll find that three point back at you. It's up to the players to explain their stance now."
There's a saying that a week is a long time in politics, surely two years is a long time in sport.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 19/07/2017 20:11:13    2019521

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Replying To essmac:  "If a manager is useless or has had a fair shot but the team is getting worse, then player power in theory isn't a bad thing. However, human nature being what it is, you can never rule out payers wanting to get rid of a good-but-tough manager on personal grounds. Do we trust players to always act for the right reasons? If a manager, or indeed any boss, has told you a few home truths, you may dislike him and that may colour your opinion of him. In an ideal world, managers would be competent and popular; but a % of competent people in all walks of life aren't necessarily likable."
You make a very valid point very well.
Also some players, if they are dropped or are not getting much game-time, have a tendency to blame the manager for his inability to see how good they are. They are rarely objective enough to admit that they are not good enough to make the first fifteen. Some decide that there is little point in putting in all the hours of training if they are not going to start (I have some sympathy for them on this point). However many of those who decide to walk away do so in a way that suggests that all is not well in the camp and that there are splits, implying that the manager has lost the dressing room.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 19/07/2017 20:29:57    2019534

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