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Brolly on Gooch

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Replying To Breffni39: "Yeah I said from play. Brolly didn't take the frees at the time. He wasnt a corner forward at the time either. Just trying to highlight the stupidity of the post." Yeah I'm sure the Derry passenger would have scored those majestic frees the great Maurice did that day Idiot KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 11/04/2017 22:46:07 1978607 Link
RTE "think" they are the GAA opinion makers they are not, that boat sailed away a few years ago. Gooch was a great footballer, a legend? the greatest ever? IMHO no but great is surely good enough? arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4897 - 11/04/2017 23:24:31 1978621 Link
Replying To GeniusGerry: "Hilarious. So first he was anonymous. Then when it was proven that he put up very respectable scores in those games only points late on count!! If we are going to those lengths did anybody consider that Canavan was introduced as a sub against a tiring Kerry defence in 2005, surely making it easier for him to have an impact on things. Ridiculous argument I know, but hardly any less relevant than the above." It's common sense that scoring when you're team really needs you is more important than tipping over a point or two in the first 10 minutes. I'll give you an example of leadership in the 2005 All-Ireland by a Kerry player, and it wasn't Gooch. Tomás O'Se bombing up from wing back to score agoal to either level or put a point between Tyrone or Kerry with about 8 min play to go. Scoring when the game is there to be won or lost is far different than being the fella who gets a few scores early on but is mentally broken when the fat's in the fire kerry'genius'. Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 11/04/2017 23:43:09 1978627 Link
Replying To KYTotalFootball: "I'm sorry but if you are going to try and attack someone's character , someone who is greatly respected in Kerry but beyond you had better have something to back it up From an individual who claims to love club football , hates the scientific elements of modern football and so on and yet disparages someone of class, intelligence and skill proves he should be ignored. Cooper was top scorer in the 05 and 08 finals and yet he is a choker according to the 1 point passenger from Derry" so because he only scored 1 point in a final and he's from Derry, he should be ignored? with that logic you'd have the Hoganstand forum shut down! You don't have to agree with his opinion, I don't myself. But to dismiss it based on what he achieved or where he's from is a bit high horsed. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 11/04/2017 23:43:20 1978628 Link
Listen for me he's the greatest forward of all time , it doesn't matter what one man says to change that but I have to laugh at posters slagging off Joe cause he only scored one point or won one all Ireland ha that's more than all of us key board warriors ever got near to so I think if we're entitle to an opinion then Joe is definitely entitled to his opinion. Some posters think he's the greatest some don't just like Joe doesn't what's the problem? clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 12/04/2017 07:08:12 1978644 Link
Replying To hill16no1man: "What has winning all Ireland's got to do with being able to analyse a match? You don't have to have played inter county to be able to read a game and give your opinion, same as you didn't have to be a great player to be a great manager there different roles" agreed,if thats the case most of us here are never right! ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 12/04/2017 07:28:43 1978648 Link
Replying To GeniusGerry: "Hilarious. So first he was anonymous. Then when it was proven that he put up very respectable scores in those games only points late on count!! If we are going to those lengths did anybody consider that Canavan was introduced as a sub against a tiring Kerry defence in 2005, surely making it easier for him to have an impact on things. Ridiculous argument I know, but hardly any less relevant than the above." didn't you know? only the last 10 mins count. :P ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 12/04/2017 07:32:25 1978650 Link
Replying To hill16no1man: "They don't have average Joe's because big names bring in viewer's regardless of if they are good at it. Teams win all Ireland's not individuals. its like saying Mattie forde wasn't a brilliant player because he didn't win an all Ireland which is ridiculous" kevin o'brien from wicklow is another player who was great,he also roasted meath on his own way back in 91. ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 12/04/2017 07:34:26 1978651 Link
I just think it is really sad that there has been so much negativity around his retirement, the Brolly stuff and Canavan thread on here really was there any need, he was a fantastic player, one every one will remember from that era in his pomp, does I t need to be more or less. I actually Brolly is hard done by here, I don't think he was saying Gooch wasn't a terrific player just a certain style of player of course he got drawn in to narcissism. I don't agree with him as he compared Gooch to some blood and thunder players who could control and change a game. Gooch did it a different way he controlled Kerrys tempo, opened up games closed them off, he was a playmaker, he played in numerous position sometimes throughout games. I think it broadly shows a lack of knowledge on Brollys behalf and a bit of nostalgia to his own era to be honest. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/04/2017 08:42:18 1978665 Link
Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Yeah I'm sure the Derry passenger would have scored those majestic frees the great Maurice did that day Idiot" Fair enough, most of Fitzgerald's points came from dead balls that day, though he got two points from near the sideline, which were hardly tapover frees. Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 12/04/2017 09:32:52 1978684 Link
Replying To Laois76: "It's common sense that scoring when you're team really needs you is more important than tipping over a point or two in the first 10 minutes. I'll give you an example of leadership in the 2005 All-Ireland by a Kerry player, and it wasn't Gooch. Tomás O'Se bombing up from wing back to score agoal to either level or put a point between Tyrone or Kerry with about 8 min play to go. Scoring when the game is there to be won or lost is far different than being the fella who gets a few scores early on but is mentally broken when the fat's in the fire kerry'genius'." You are not comparing like with like though. Tomas O' Se and Colm Cooper were totally different players and characters. You are falling in to the same trap as Brolly. That's why the best teams have a variety of characters and a variety of players with a variety of stills. I suppose if you are going to compare Colm Cooper with any current player it might be Kevin Mcloughlin of Mayo, They are both of the same stature, both left-footed, both really accurate and incisive passers but Cooper scoring rate is far far higher. There have been great individual players from weaker counties who were as good, as already mentioned kevin O' Brien from Wicklow, Noel Roche from Clare, Declan Browne from Tipp, Matty Forde from Wexford, Micheal Martin from Leitrin, Keiran McDonald from Mayo (obviously not a weaker county). Peter McGinnity from Fermanagh, Paddy Moriarity from Armagh, even Rory Gallagher from wherever was a fantastic player. but none of them was the same type of player as Colm cooper. I would personally rate Maurice Fitz as a better all-round player but Cooper is/was a fantastic finisher. s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 12/04/2017 09:58:19 1978702 Link
he got 3 points from play in both 2005 and 2008 from under 12 posessions. he set up 1-1 in 2005 and in 2008 got fouled for 2 converted points and set up at least 2 unconverted goal chances .. not bad for lad who according to joe didn't show up.. kavvie (Clare) - Posts: 505 - 12/04/2017 10:03:03 1978705 Link
Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Yeah I'm sure the Derry passenger would have scored those majestic frees the great Maurice did that day Idiot" Gooch probably wouldn't have either. What's your point? Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 12/04/2017 10:06:45 1978706 Link
All this fluff about being a 'leader' and 'dragging your team across the line' is for the most part just nostalgia where players make a big play at the right time (in hindsight). Unless you can watch the match and say: 1. Cooper stopped looking for the ball 2. He received a good pass but didn't win it / lost it 3. Made a bad decision or hit a wide Then what more do you want him to do? It's a 30 man game. Sometimes the situations don't arise where you can have an impact on the game. It's the classic case of hindsight bias from Brolly, concentrating only on games where Kerry lost despite him being the reason why they won so many games. Its a testament to how good Cooper was that in the games Brolly, a solicitor, chooses to reference, Cooper actually played really well. benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 12/04/2017 10:32:08 1978720 Link
Replying To s goldrick: "You are not comparing like with like though. Tomas O' Se and Colm Cooper were totally different players and characters. You are falling in to the same trap as Brolly. That's why the best teams have a variety of characters and a variety of players with a variety of stills. I suppose if you are going to compare Colm Cooper with any current player it might be Kevin Mcloughlin of Mayo, They are both of the same stature, both left-footed, both really accurate and incisive passers but Cooper scoring rate is far far higher. There have been great individual players from weaker counties who were as good, as already mentioned kevin O' Brien from Wicklow, Noel Roche from Clare, Declan Browne from Tipp, Matty Forde from Wexford, Micheal Martin from Leitrin, Keiran McDonald from Mayo (obviously not a weaker county). Peter McGinnity from Fermanagh, Paddy Moriarity from Armagh, even Rory Gallagher from wherever was a fantastic player. but none of them was the same type of player as Colm cooper. I would personally rate Maurice Fitz as a better all-round player but Cooper is/was a fantastic finisher." Yes of course those forwards you mention had different skill sets than backs like Tomas O'Se. However it's my opinion that Gooch wasn't the greatest of all time and i feel other players were more likely to do something to change the course of a really tough game. I'd actually have more faith in Kieran Donaghy, in his prime, to do that. Gooch relied on pure skill, and that's a marvellous thing in an era dominated by a lot of muscle, stamina and automaton type football. I can never accept him as the greatest though. Posters like Ziggy are laughing at the suggestion that only the last 10 minutes count. But in close games that's where they are won or lost and the real greatest players stand out. Maurice Fitz to draw against the Dubs in 2001 and v Mayo in 1997. Peter Canavan single handedly almost winning an all-ireland v the Dubs in 1995. Canavan played with a very average team compared to the Gooch when he was at his prime in the mid 90s. Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 12/04/2017 10:45:30 1978722 Link
Could we drop this, it's getting boring. thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1743 - 12/04/2017 11:42:19 1978753 Link
Replying To thelongridge: "Could we drop this, it's getting boring." Always great when a Galway man ambles into an argument. Fair play Padraic Joyce. http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=268988 SamandLiamSoon (Galway) - Posts: 591 - 13/04/2017 20:00:45 1979209 Link
While many may not agree with Brolly, or Brolly certainly was not as good a footballer as Cooper, it still doesn't mean that he is a poor analyst, writer, debater or journalist. He is controversial. one of the reasons he is so disliked is because he is so blunt and plays the devils advocate too. In this case, I think that Joyce may well think that Brolly is not the man to criticize, but indeed he is the man to be critical if he is working on his strengths as a writer and analyst and not a footballer. I disagree with a lot that Brolly said. I think that one of the reasons that Cooper went awol in many of those games was because he was 'taken care of' by fair means or foul. I am not sure that Brolly was clear about this. Yes he has a point, but no he doesn't audit all the facts. Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 13/04/2017 21:04:39 1979231 Link
No harm lads but Brolly is pretty much bang on! Personally I still think gooch has been the best player over the past 15 odd years but be realistic! Kerry walk into the quarter finals every year in second gear, and continue to do so! That's fact and any decent forward in a Kerry team could rack up a decent tally! Geaney is doing it for them this year!! 81DLSAM (Donegal) - Posts: 281 - 13/04/2017 21:06:38 1979232 Link
Cooper was obviously a great forward as skillful and accurate as they come. I don't agree with him but Brolly is entitled to his opinion. Barnowl94 (Galway) - Posts: 3150 - 14/04/2017 15:06:06 1979403 Link