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1a b c or d means nothing come championship. If Cork were to beat Limerick in a munster final do they think they would give a hoot about losing a league 1/4 final in April?
League is league lads. It has been and in its current format always will be a glorified challenge tournament that is prep for the championship. And for anyone to say otherwise is only fooling themselves. You could have 2 of the best teams in the country playing each other in the league and you could have 5 of the best players on the bench. I've yet to see a championship match where players are rested.
League is talked about for the 5 or 6 weeks while it's on. Championship is talked about all year round and many years after.
mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 06/04/2017 06:30:34
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Replying To LohansRedHelmet: "1A is such that the aim of the game is to stay in the division. Anything above that is a bonus. I dont believe 1a teams target the league specifically until they arrive and if they arrive at a semi final.
The 1b teams have more of a point to prove in the quarters, hence the reason you see what appears to be odd results.
Take Cork and Limerick for example. Cork would have been favorites for relegation from 1a this year due to their abysmal season last year. Once status was secured, mentally they were satisfied with their progress and hence took their feet off the gas.
Tipperary did not appear to take the league overly seriously last year and we beat them in the quarters with a bit of a smash and grab win that was in trust undeserved (much like Waterford beating us in Ennis two weeks ago). Tipperary did not really care however. Status was secure and they could not focus on the championship which they won." a smash and grab undeserved win just like waterford in ennis two weeks ago? was that the same match waterford led for most of first half only to go in at HT -2 points down? the same match that clare scored 2 points in last 15/20 mins of second half to waterfords 1.05? hardly undeserved LRH. tiredness and incapability to finish out a game from clare maybe but undeserved?? no.
juniorjudge (Waterford) - Posts: 383 - 06/04/2017 07:52:36
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Replying To LohansRedHelmet: "1A is such that the aim of the game is to stay in the division. Anything above that is a bonus. I dont believe 1a teams target the league specifically until they arrive and if they arrive at a semi final.
The 1b teams have more of a point to prove in the quarters, hence the reason you see what appears to be odd results.
Take Cork and Limerick for example. Cork would have been favorites for relegation from 1a this year due to their abysmal season last year. Once status was secured, mentally they were satisfied with their progress and hence took their feet off the gas.
Tipperary did not appear to take the league overly seriously last year and we beat them in the quarters with a bit of a smash and grab win that was in trust undeserved (much like Waterford beating us in Ennis two weeks ago). Tipperary did not really care however. Status was secure and they could not focus on the championship which they won." Spot on. Personally I don't think Tipp have taken the league overly serious this year either, which may sound cocky but I think the target has been met at this point and he's got games into players he wanted to see. I'd be surprised if you don't see at least 5 or 6 changes again the next day
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 06/04/2017 09:13:04
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Replying To blackspot91: "What if they seeded the league some way where 1a and b were generally equal quality and 2a and b etc so for example 1a could be (tipp waterford clare dublin offaly) and 1b (Kilkenny galway limerick cork wexford) etc and it would be considered one division with the bottom team in each group going down (2 down) or the bottom 4 play relegation semis. The the 2 finalists in division 2 goes up into separate groups of whatever. Or even the leagues could be seeded each year based on championship.." That was more or less the structure about ten years ago, before shrinking to eight teams and then the current arrangement.
Wexican (Wexford) - Posts: 36 - 06/04/2017 09:51:43
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Replying To blackspot91: "You honestly think a team of intercounty cork hurlers playing in front of a big home crowd in a quarter final of a national competition (they've won f all recently) just decided not to try that hard against limerick? Nonsense..." I agree. League success may be a distant second to a championship title, but surely a knock-out match in front of a decent crowd with something to play for (even the league!) is a better simulation for championship than challenges?
This year's semifinal line-up has raised eyebrows but I don't think it has much to do with 1A teams not trying. Last year Clare won but there were only two 1B teams in the knockout stage, the year before Waterford got it but they were the only 1B team. In '14 no 1B team made it. And the two years before that, though the structure was a little different, the 1B teams were beaten in their first meeting with 1A teams.
Wexican (Wexford) - Posts: 36 - 06/04/2017 10:14:34
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As I mentioned in another thread, they need to review and make some small changes to the current league format.
A Division of 10 is a non-runner because they'll want two teams to be a buffer from the tier below! With that in mind the current two groups of 6 is fine.
It's mad that 4 teams from 1B can advance to the league's knockout stage but only 1 team is promoted to 1A.
The top 2 in 1A should be rewarded with direct qualification to the league semi-finals.
The top 2 in 1B should be rewarded with promotion to 1A and qualification to the league's quarter-finals against the middle 2 teams from 1A.
The bottom 2 teams from 1A should drop to 1B. The bottom team in 1B should be automatically relegated.
If some teams are unhappy with just 5 regular league games, they should consider more provincial league games at the beginning of the year. Teams shouldn't be granted a 6th game just for the sake of it.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 08/04/2017 15:45:34
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Replying To legendzxix: "As I mentioned in another thread, they need to review and make some small changes to the current league format.
A Division of 10 is a non-runner because they'll want two teams to be a buffer from the tier below! With that in mind the current two groups of 6 is fine.
It's mad that 4 teams from 1B can advance to the league's knockout stage but only 1 team is promoted to 1A.
The top 2 in 1A should be rewarded with direct qualification to the league semi-finals.
The top 2 in 1B should be rewarded with promotion to 1A and qualification to the league's quarter-finals against the middle 2 teams from 1A.
The bottom 2 teams from 1A should drop to 1B. The bottom team in 1B should be automatically relegated.
If some teams are unhappy with just 5 regular league games, they should consider more provincial league games at the beginning of the year. Teams shouldn't be granted a 6th game just for the sake of it." I'd leave the league part of the structure the same. Wexford have proven that if you get your house in order there is nothing stopping you getting promoted back to division 1a. They would have been 3rd favourites at the start of the competition so fair play to them.
I don't think the 3rd and 4th placed division 1a teams should be making the team playoffs. Have something simple like top 2 in division 1a go to the semi finals. 3rd and 4th in division 1a play 2nd and 1st in division 1b for the other two semi final spots.
Division 2a winners should always be automatically promoted to division 1b. Otherwise it undermines the great work that Antrim, Westmeath, Kildare, Meath etc are doing to close the gap. There has to be a carrot for those teams.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 08/04/2017 17:07:51
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Replying To Killarney.87: "I'd leave the league part of the structure the same. Wexford have proven that if you get your house in order there is nothing stopping you getting promoted back to division 1a. They would have been 3rd favourites at the start of the competition so fair play to them.
I don't think the 3rd and 4th placed division 1a teams should be making the team playoffs. Have something simple like top 2 in division 1a go to the semi finals. 3rd and 4th in division 1a play 2nd and 1st in division 1b for the other two semi final spots.
Division 2a winners should always be automatically promoted to division 1b. Otherwise it undermines the great work that Antrim, Westmeath, Kildare, Meath etc are doing to close the gap. There has to be a carrot for those teams." Ok, you're pretty much backing up what I said.
Example from this year;
Division 1A
1. Tipperary - semi-finals v Kilkenny or Wexford.
2. Cork - semi-finals v Galway or Waterford.
3. Waterford - quarter-finals v Galway.
4. Kilkenny - quarter-finals v Wexford.
5. Clare - relegated to 1B.
6. Dublin - relegated to 1B.
Division 1B
1. Wexford - promoted to 1A and quarter-finals v Kilkenny.
2. Galway - promoted to 1A and quarter-finals v Waterford.
3. Limerick
4. Offaly
5. Kerry
6. Laois - relegated to 2A.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 08/04/2017 17:36:52
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Replying To legendzxix: "Ok, you're pretty much backing up what I said.
Example from this year;
Division 1A
1. Tipperary - semi-finals v Kilkenny or Wexford.
2. Cork - semi-finals v Galway or Waterford.
3. Waterford - quarter-finals v Galway.
4. Kilkenny - quarter-finals v Wexford.
5. Clare - relegated to 1B.
6. Dublin - relegated to 1B.
Division 1B
1. Wexford - promoted to 1A and quarter-finals v Kilkenny.
2. Galway - promoted to 1A and quarter-finals v Waterford.
3. Limerick
4. Offaly
5. Kerry
6. Laois - relegated to 2A." Sorry I had a miss-key in my earlier post.
My suggestion is slightly different to your reply. One up from Division 1b (Wexford) and a relegation play-off between the bottom two in division 1b.
The other thing you could do is bottom team in division 1a and 1b go down but 5th and 6th placed teams play one less. I'm sure the 5th placed teams would be happy with that, especially when Galway went down instead of Cork last year.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 10/04/2017 03:23:43
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The issue with making an 8 team division 1 is that it leaves one team in division 2 who will win every match at a canter. Regardless of who was 3rd in 1b this year, and it was always going to be us because we loves it down there, it meant the 2018 division 2 league was over before it started and every year after that would be the same for whoever came down from division 1. It would only make sense to combine the 2 if you just merged all 12 in to an open draw. And yes some will say Laois, Kerry etc will get some hammerings but sure they get that as it is.
Leave the league as it is. As Moran said in the piece on the home page "it's only the league". It's meaningless in the bigger scheme of things. Unless positions in it having a bearing on championship seedings or whatever the league will always be a pre season tournament where teams just try out fellas and game plans etc. With such a gap between league and championship for most teams they play 3 or 4 challenges in between anyway. And at times they are of more benefit than any league match. A challenge match played in May made up of 2 full teams on a decent pitch is better preparation for the championship than 2 half teams playing in wind and rain in February.
mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 12/04/2017 12:30:17
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Division 1 has two groups of 6. 1A is ranked higher than 1B. I have highlighted a fair balanced format within current structures already.
2 teams switching between 1A and 1B will invigorate both groups. Giving 1A twice as many places in the league knockout stage is also very fair.
Small steps in the right direction are all that are required.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 12/04/2017 18:03:35
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Replying To legendzxix: "Division 1 has two groups of 6. 1A is ranked higher than 1B. I have highlighted a fair balanced format within current structures already.
2 teams switching between 1A and 1B will invigorate both groups. Giving 1A twice as many places in the league knockout stage is also very fair.
Small steps in the right direction are all that are required." Are you saying relegate two from division 1a? I think that would be one two many.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 13/04/2017 03:39:13
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Replying To legendzxix: "Division 1 has two groups of 6. 1A is ranked higher than 1B. I have highlighted a fair balanced format within current structures already.
2 teams switching between 1A and 1B will invigorate both groups. Giving 1A twice as many places in the league knockout stage is also very fair.
Small steps in the right direction are all that are required." Just thinking. The problem is actually that Division 2a winners weren't getting automatically promoted to Division 1b. Kerry will have benefited hugely from playing Clare and Galway once and Limerick, Wexford, Offaly and Laois twice over the last two league seasons proper and Laois again in a relegation match. That exposure will make them better.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 13/04/2017 03:42:51
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "Yeah, but Clare won 1b, and were promoted to 1a for this years league. I was referring to the scenario that would arise if Limerick or Galway won the league outright this year, but would still be in 1b next year (which is what would happen under the current structure). I'm not saying its right or wrong, but if it happened, I imagine it would cause some discussion." I have no doubt your team will prempt any such discussion by beating whoever they meet from here on inand I mean that in a cordial as having wathched last years Final I can see no team coming near ye when the chips are down.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4338 - 13/04/2017 03:56:33
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