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Dublin V Kerry NFL Final

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Replying To Knoxboya:  "Can I refer you to Darragh O Se's comments to the Irish Times last July ?
Along the lines of Kerry teams not caring how they got to Croke "the handier route the better" followed by the candid admission the system was "stacked against Ulster teams"."
Oh sure what team/player wouldn't want the handiest route possible to August/Sept???

I'm just pointing out a 9 week wait for Kerry is hardly any benefit to us! But plenty of teams also have to deal with it.
There's a fair few lads on our panel that need a lot of game time to get up to match fitness, Anthony Maher being a obvious example. Having 9 weeks of training ahead instead of 2-3 matches in that period is no help to Kerry and does nothing for the momentum we've gained from Sunday's win.

I've often said, and many Kerry fans would agree, that we would benefit a lot more from a structure that gave us 4-5 games from May - July going into a Q-final in Croker than we do now where we have 9 weeks until our first game, another month gap till a Munster final and another month gap until a date in Croke Park. Was even worse last year considering all 3 games until the All-Ireland Semi-final were little better than training sessions.

This Super 8 will probably benefit Kerry a huge amount in that regard.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 12/04/2017 13:15:38    1978783

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Oh sure what team/player wouldn't want the handiest route possible to August/Sept???

I'm just pointing out a 9 week wait for Kerry is hardly any benefit to us! But plenty of teams also have to deal with it.
There's a fair few lads on our panel that need a lot of game time to get up to match fitness, Anthony Maher being a obvious example. Having 9 weeks of training ahead instead of 2-3 matches in that period is no help to Kerry and does nothing for the momentum we've gained from Sunday's win.

I've often said, and many Kerry fans would agree, that we would benefit a lot more from a structure that gave us 4-5 games from May - July going into a Q-final in Croker than we do now where we have 9 weeks until our first game, another month gap till a Munster final and another month gap until a date in Croke Park. Was even worse last year considering all 3 games until the All-Ireland Semi-final were little better than training sessions.

This Super 8 will probably benefit Kerry a huge amount in that regard."
All available evidence points to the fact that Kerry benefit massively from the imbalanced provincial system, as ex-Kerry journalists have admitted to in recent years.

I agree that the Super 8 probably will end up benefiting Kerry; it doesn't fix the broken provincials.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 427 - 12/04/2017 13:59:10    1978802

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Oh sure what team/player wouldn't want the handiest route possible to August/Sept???

I'm just pointing out a 9 week wait for Kerry is hardly any benefit to us! But plenty of teams also have to deal with it.
There's a fair few lads on our panel that need a lot of game time to get up to match fitness, Anthony Maher being a obvious example. Having 9 weeks of training ahead instead of 2-3 matches in that period is no help to Kerry and does nothing for the momentum we've gained from Sunday's win.

I've often said, and many Kerry fans would agree, that we would benefit a lot more from a structure that gave us 4-5 games from May - July going into a Q-final in Croker than we do now where we have 9 weeks until our first game, another month gap till a Munster final and another month gap until a date in Croke Park. Was even worse last year considering all 3 games until the All-Ireland Semi-final were little better than training sessions.

This Super 8 will probably benefit Kerry a huge amount in that regard."
Coming from ulster think its more the fact tht games in ulster have always been tough same way as u hardly ever see a team win 2 ulsters in a row but id rather play as have a 9 week lay up nothing beats playing yes it can take its toll but with most teams having a 32 man squad then they should be able to keep it fresh

hoopman (Tyrone) - Posts: 105 - 12/04/2017 14:00:17    1978803

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Sound realdub username and jayp, il be honest I did for one second think we'd beat ye , what with our patchy form and missing so many players, at best I was hoping for a good performance and the young lads to do well, but by the 60th min I wanted the win by the 70th min I really wanted the win and by 73rd min I ready to kill someone at the 74th min relief and pride but by the time I hit the red cow I was back down to earth the buzz from winning the allireland would last weeks even months. Fair play to the dubs that stayed on for the lifting of the cup I doubt I'd have done the same.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 12/04/2017 14:29:45    1978814

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whatever way you look at it, Dublin have proved themselves to be the best team in the country (They finished top of the league). Kerry are the second best (finished second in the league). Donegal third and Monaghan fourth.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 12/04/2017 14:35:09    1978818

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Replying To s goldrick:  "whatever way you look at it, Dublin have proved themselves to be the best team in the country (They finished top of the league). Kerry are the second best (finished second in the league). Donegal third and Monaghan fourth."
No one's disputing Dublin are the best team at the mo, but Sunday and the League in general showed that maybe, just maybe, they are falling back a little and that we are closing the gap!

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 12/04/2017 14:40:57    1978823

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Sound realdub username and jayp, il be honest I did for one second think we'd beat ye , what with our patchy form and missing so many players, at best I was hoping for a good performance and the young lads to do well, but by the 60th min I wanted the win by the 70th min I really wanted the win and by 73rd min I ready to kill someone at the 74th min relief and pride but by the time I hit the red cow I was back down to earth the buzz from winning the allireland would last weeks even months. Fair play to the dubs that stayed on for the lifting of the cup I doubt I'd have done the same."
Listen, don't for one minute think I am trying to take anything away from Kerry, they showed real desire and it was a great experience for your young players to come to croker and beat the so called 'invincible' Dubs, so well done on that.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 12/04/2017 14:53:38    1978826

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Replying To TheHermit:  "No one's disputing Dublin are the best team at the mo, but Sunday and the League in general showed that maybe, just maybe, they are falling back a little and that we are closing the gap!"
I concur, I think the gap is closing, as natural as evolution :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 12/04/2017 14:57:04    1978829

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Replying To realdub:  "Listen, don't for one minute think I am trying to take anything away from Kerry, they showed real desire and it was a great experience for your young players to come to croker and beat the so called 'invincible' Dubs, so well done on that."
Exactly yer the best team in the country and are rightly favourites for the all Ireland, but Sunday will give us great hope for the future.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 12/04/2017 15:20:08    1978832

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Sunday looked more like throwing a stray cat out the door ;D

Only messing, Dublin weren't themselves for large parts so we won't be patting ourselves on the back to hard at all.

Then again Kerry weren't great for most of the first half so we have plenty of improving to do too."
Your not wrong mate, was a very uncharacteristic performance, how much of it was organic or how much was Kerry being very good and not allowing us to play? I'm still trying to work out. Kerry were very good, better then I thought to be honest and no doubt will only get stronger.

Kerry or Dublin we are always strong, we both always expect to win, when we don't we have to use the loss as a vehicle for self improvement and motivation. Great challenge ahead and one that will be telling for this Dublin team.

Its our turn in the "must do better" corner at them moment. but sure we probably have many more decades of it ahead full of wins and loss's.

Having said all that im predicting a Tyrone and Mayo A.I Final. :)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/04/2017 16:37:21    1978862

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Your not wrong mate, was a very uncharacteristic performance, how much of it was organic or how much was Kerry being very good and not allowing us to play? I'm still trying to work out. Kerry were very good, better then I thought to be honest and no doubt will only get stronger.

Kerry or Dublin we are always strong, we both always expect to win, when we don't we have to use the loss as a vehicle for self improvement and motivation. Great challenge ahead and one that will be telling for this Dublin team.

Its our turn in the "must do better" corner at them moment. but sure we probably have many more decades of it ahead full of wins and loss's.

Having said all that im predicting a Tyrone and Mayo A.I Final. :)"
Stranger things have happened! However if Tyrone's performance in Killarney is any indication of their potential they won't get past the first qualifier round and I'd say any Tyrone supporter that was down at it would be saying the same thing.

As for Dublin's performance being down to an off day or Kerry's own display, well I think it was yourself that posted after the match that you thought the Kerry defense was vulnerable throughout. I'd have to disagree. While I thought from half forward on we were poor enough for most of the first half, I thought our backs were pretty comfortable throughout the game. 2/3 of the Dublin FF was taken off and that tells its own story, Kilkenny was well shackled as well come the second half and Rock was reduced to little threat from open play.

The only exception was the goal, which I thought was against the run of play and also a very weak one to give away. There was 4-5 Kerry defenders around the goal and Kealy came out too quick, it was very soft. If it had cost us the game the lads would have been lambasted and rightly so!

No, I think we are evolving a very mean defense. Morely is unreal for someone so inexperienced. He just looks so natural and comfortable on the ball, every game he's getting better. Griffin is learning and improving every match and while many would see him as a perfect centre back, he's doing the job at FB at the moment. Again for someone with only a handful of senior games Ronan Shanahan is already looking like the real deal and we all know Paul Murphy's class. When you consider they Young and Enright were not available and Brian O'B and the likes of Jason Foley will have a good chance of inclusion from the U-21s, our backs are looking very good. If we can learn to tackle a bit better and stop giving away so many soft frees, I think we will have a very formidable unit come the heat of the Championship.

So there's cause for optimism in the Kingdom looking towards summer though personally I'd say we need JOD to be back, injury free and in his 2014 form if we are to have any serious ambitions of Sam. We probably need a couple more of our forwards to step up to the mark too as viable starting or impact options.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 12/04/2017 20:07:24    1978910

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Stranger things have happened! However if Tyrone's performance in Killarney is any indication of their potential they won't get past the first qualifier round and I'd say any Tyrone supporter that was down at it would be saying the same thing.

As for Dublin's performance being down to an off day or Kerry's own display, well I think it was yourself that posted after the match that you thought the Kerry defense was vulnerable throughout. I'd have to disagree. While I thought from half forward on we were poor enough for most of the first half, I thought our backs were pretty comfortable throughout the game. 2/3 of the Dublin FF was taken off and that tells its own story, Kilkenny was well shackled as well come the second half and Rock was reduced to little threat from open play.

The only exception was the goal, which I thought was against the run of play and also a very weak one to give away. There was 4-5 Kerry defenders around the goal and Kealy came out too quick, it was very soft. If it had cost us the game the lads would have been lambasted and rightly so!

No, I think we are evolving a very mean defense. Morely is unreal for someone so inexperienced. He just looks so natural and comfortable on the ball, every game he's getting better. Griffin is learning and improving every match and while many would see him as a perfect centre back, he's doing the job at FB at the moment. Again for someone with only a handful of senior games Ronan Shanahan is already looking like the real deal and we all know Paul Murphy's class. When you consider they Young and Enright were not available and Brian O'B and the likes of Jason Foley will have a good chance of inclusion from the U-21s, our backs are looking very good. If we can learn to tackle a bit better and stop giving away so many soft frees, I think we will have a very formidable unit come the heat of the Championship.

So there's cause for optimism in the Kingdom looking towards summer though personally I'd say we need JOD to be back, injury free and in his 2014 form if we are to have any serious ambitions of Sam. We probably need a couple more of our forwards to step up to the mark too as viable starting or impact options."
Have to say mate, I would disagree on the defence, you will have seen them more individually then me but really felt the defence could be got at. The first half wasn't problematic from a scoring perspective from a Dublin point of view. The game was lost in the third quater at that stage Kerry had started the high press so the solidity or lack of scoring came from Dublins inability to get the ball from Defense and attack. Something I haven't seen in years is a team going a defender to forward with Dublin. The team never noted the space in behind the high press and continued with its running game out of defence but ran into the high press and never hit the space behind, I think there is joy there. In the last quater we hit full pelt and I imagine we outscored you by quiet a bit in that period, that said Kerry tacked on some very good scores in that period.

On reflection I think Galvin judged the game poorly, or rather Fitz's tactics were sublime. I don't think anyone expected Kerry to play anything but men behind the ball containmet football, but to come out and attack, high press Dublin were at sea and didn't have the game plan for it. Of course your lads were great and executed it to a tee. But I think our forward play and recycling strategy in our game plan which you must have noticed being at the game was set up for a blanket defence as opposed to an open direct game. Strangely I think Dublin pre 2014 without Cian at Sweeper system would have won the day well.

Loads for Jim to ponder but Fitz tactics were brilliant. He has different tactics for each quater.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/04/2017 21:16:04    1978926

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Have to say mate, I would disagree on the defence, you will have seen them more individually then me but really felt the defence could be got at. The first half wasn't problematic from a scoring perspective from a Dublin point of view. The game was lost in the third quater at that stage Kerry had started the high press so the solidity or lack of scoring came from Dublins inability to get the ball from Defense and attack. Something I haven't seen in years is a team going a defender to forward with Dublin. The team never noted the space in behind the high press and continued with its running game out of defence but ran into the high press and never hit the space behind, I think there is joy there. In the last quater we hit full pelt and I imagine we outscored you by quiet a bit in that period, that said Kerry tacked on some very good scores in that period.

On reflection I think Galvin judged the game poorly, or rather Fitz's tactics were sublime. I don't think anyone expected Kerry to play anything but men behind the ball containmet football, but to come out and attack, high press Dublin were at sea and didn't have the game plan for it. Of course your lads were great and executed it to a tee. But I think our forward play and recycling strategy in our game plan which you must have noticed being at the game was set up for a blanket defence as opposed to an open direct game. Strangely I think Dublin pre 2014 without Cian at Sweeper system would have won the day well.

Loads for Jim to ponder but Fitz tactics were brilliant. He has different tactics for each quater."
Tactics were spot on in '13 and '16 as well. The squad had limitations when compared with the 00's. We haven't turned that corner yet. It's simply nice to win the league from time to time. We have a responsibility to do so. The 4 of Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone and Monaghan might need to start making a push before the 4 of Galway, Kildare, Meath and Cork look to push them out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7865 - 12/04/2017 21:56:00    1978941

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Tactics were spot on in '13 and '16 as well. The squad had limitations when compared with the 00's. We haven't turned that corner yet. It's simply nice to win the league from time to time. We have a responsibility to do so. The 4 of Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone and Monaghan might need to start making a push before the 4 of Galway, Kildare, Meath and Cork look to push them out."
Kildare and Meath are you serious? They've enough on their hands trying to figure out who draws the short straw to play Dubs in Leinster final!

IrishGael3 (USA) - Posts: 1092 - 13/04/2017 11:33:01    1979026

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Have to say mate, I would disagree on the defence, you will have seen them more individually then me but really felt the defence could be got at. The first half wasn't problematic from a scoring perspective from a Dublin point of view. The game was lost in the third quater at that stage Kerry had started the high press so the solidity or lack of scoring came from Dublins inability to get the ball from Defense and attack. Something I haven't seen in years is a team going a defender to forward with Dublin. The team never noted the space in behind the high press and continued with its running game out of defence but ran into the high press and never hit the space behind, I think there is joy there. In the last quater we hit full pelt and I imagine we outscored you by quiet a bit in that period, that said Kerry tacked on some very good scores in that period.

On reflection I think Galvin judged the game poorly, or rather Fitz's tactics were sublime. I don't think anyone expected Kerry to play anything but men behind the ball containmet football, but to come out and attack, high press Dublin were at sea and didn't have the game plan for it. Of course your lads were great and executed it to a tee. But I think our forward play and recycling strategy in our game plan which you must have noticed being at the game was set up for a blanket defence as opposed to an open direct game. Strangely I think Dublin pre 2014 without Cian at Sweeper system would have won the day well.

Loads for Jim to ponder but Fitz tactics were brilliant. He has different tactics for each quater."
Well I still think we are getting far more solid at the back compared to the last two years and I still think our backs had the upper hand. Whatever the final scoreline said, much like 2013 it was deceptive. Kerry were 4-5 points the better team.

Still I take your point too and the quality of ball going into the Dublin forwards was pretty poor for a lot of the game.

Like I said plenty of potential for both sides to improve, the question is who will have improved most if and when they next meet.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 13/04/2017 13:34:02    1979079

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Kerry should be favourites for Sam now after Sunday,
Dublin could be viewed as a team in decline considering their performance drop-off since 2015 and might not make it past the Q/F this year but nevertheless Gavin will go down, in Dublin circles at least, as one of the great managers with 3 All-Ireland titles in 6 years, including a back-to-back.
The "Yerra" merchants from the Kingdom have nowhere to hide now as we head into another boring (for the rest of us) period of Kerry dominance at all levels.

dubdec99 (Dublin) - Posts: 180 - 13/04/2017 15:00:36    1979113

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Replying To dubdec99:  "Kerry should be favourites for Sam now after Sunday,
Dublin could be viewed as a team in decline considering their performance drop-off since 2015 and might not make it past the Q/F this year but nevertheless Gavin will go down, in Dublin circles at least, as one of the great managers with 3 All-Ireland titles in 6 years, including a back-to-back.
The "Yerra" merchants from the Kingdom have nowhere to hide now as we head into another boring (for the rest of us) period of Kerry dominance at all levels."
A noble effort but Dublin will never master the yerra yeah.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 13/04/2017 15:40:43    1979133

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Well I still think we are getting far more solid at the back compared to the last two years and I still think our backs had the upper hand. Whatever the final scoreline said, much like 2013 it was deceptive. Kerry were 4-5 points the better team.

Still I take your point too and the quality of ball going into the Dublin forwards was pretty poor for a lot of the game.

Like I said plenty of potential for both sides to improve, the question is who will have improved most if and when they next meet."
Definitely not saying they aren't good players, rather I felt we under-tested them and the real defensive work was being done from the front. Its interesting you said you felt your half forward line was poor, I thought they did some work off the ball in marking space and men and were critical to the high press.

Its an interesting one alright, if Dublin hadn't had a flurry of scores in the last quarter I don't think 4-5 point win was unreasonable given performances as a reflection of the game, but I thought we won the first and second quarter as well, we typically switched off on 32 mins as well as we usually do, but I thought at that point it would be a functional win for us. For me you dominated in the third quarter, Dublin were just lost, didn't have the game plan or a response to the high press and didn't notice the 1:1 on situation between defenders and forwards beyond the press.

Dublin historically target the last quarter and the strong finish, empty the bench etc. Its fascinating that Fitz played his hand in the third quarter , his approach in that quarter was inspired, He also emptied the bench himself in the last to hang on and strategize for the win. Dublin always recycle the ball to break down the blanket and that was their game plan on Sunday - I think it was evident in their forward play, when being more direct was required. Gavin in my opinion got the whole game completely wrong. Future battles will be fascinating.

On reflection Fitz won the day, which is funny itself as I know many in the Kingdom had lost faith in him.

As you say loads to reflect and improve on and loads of head room, should be nothing if not an entertaining summer.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 13/04/2017 15:49:30    1979139

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Definitely not saying they aren't good players, rather I felt we under-tested them and the real defensive work was being done from the front. Its interesting you said you felt your half forward line was poor, I thought they did some work off the ball in marking space and men and were critical to the high press.

Its an interesting one alright, if Dublin hadn't had a flurry of scores in the last quarter I don't think 4-5 point win was unreasonable given performances as a reflection of the game, but I thought we won the first and second quarter as well, we typically switched off on 32 mins as well as we usually do, but I thought at that point it would be a functional win for us. For me you dominated in the third quarter, Dublin were just lost, didn't have the game plan or a response to the high press and didn't notice the 1:1 on situation between defenders and forwards beyond the press.

Dublin historically target the last quarter and the strong finish, empty the bench etc. Its fascinating that Fitz played his hand in the third quarter , his approach in that quarter was inspired, He also emptied the bench himself in the last to hang on and strategize for the win. Dublin always recycle the ball to break down the blanket and that was their game plan on Sunday - I think it was evident in their forward play, when being more direct was required. Gavin in my opinion got the whole game completely wrong. Future battles will be fascinating.

On reflection Fitz won the day, which is funny itself as I know many in the Kingdom had lost faith in him.

As you say loads to reflect and improve on and loads of head room, should be nothing if not an entertaining summer."
Well username I didn't mean that our half forwards were poor. I meant our entire forward unit was struggling a little for the first 20-25 minutes but once they got into the game the half forwards and Mike Geaney in particular, were very impressive.

Yes Fitzy won the side-line battle alright. I guess a disadvantage of being successful is that you give your opponents plenty of opportunities to study you. People are saying he might have played his winning hand already, but then again for Gavin its one thing figuring out what the opposition will do, its another countering it.

As regards the pressure he might have been under in Kerry, well we are animals!!! The League has never been a huge priority but that still doesn't mean bad performances a la Cavan, Monaghan, Mayo are tolerated. There probably is a decent section of the Kerry support who are exacerbated by him, the rest of us still respect him hugely but were concerned about where exactly we were going and what our game plan was for the past 18 months.

But I'm optimistic that last Sunday was a turning point for both this squad and its management and, as I said, we are looking towards the summer with a spring in our step now. It might still be a year or two before we get Sam back but we are on the right path.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 13/04/2017 19:49:45    1979207

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