Cavan Forum

Pauric Duffys round robin proposals

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This is how Duffy gets away with it - democracy in Meath GAA which, I'm sure, is replicated throughout the country??? Duffy admitted on Newstalk that he was asked to speak to nine counties' delegates before the vote. If he converted all these with 'sweeteners' (taking each county at around 3% of the overall vote) this would provide 27% of the vote pushing it up from 49% in favour to 76%. Even losing 4 of these counties would have defeated the proposal.

A few weeks ago Paraic Duffy came to Dunganny to talk to Meath club delegates about the Super 8 proposals. That night the club delegates voted in favour of backing the proposal. Surely the proper process should have been for delegates to bring what Paraic presented to them back to their clubs and for each club to discuss the proposal and send their delegate back to another meeting mandated as how to vote. Not for club delegates to vote using their personal opinion based on the presentation given by the Director General. If this happened in one county, how many other counties and delegates carried out their business in a similar manner? Also that night Mr. Duffy promised delegates that Croke Park would financially support the redevelopment of Pairc Tailteann. A nice sweetener to throw in…

Joe Brolly had a good article in the Sindo yesterday where he outlined the lack of strategy and vision in the GAA top level - they don't know where they're going in 5 to 10 years time which leads to them scrabbling around in the short-term for revenue and making squalid deals with Sky etc. allowing Sky to get more and more entwined with the GAA until they start dictating like the Premier League. Duffy, Farrell etc are good administrators but no strategists.

Everything is driven by revenue as they haven't planned for the future. Duffy has been in charge for 9 years now and is still tinkering at the edges rather than doing something that will make the GAA better and stronger.

At a local level then any dissent is blocked to get the result the administrators need. Is this what we want to see?

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 06/03/2017 09:04:59    1964346

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for the first time in the history of the all-Ireland championships there will be games when it doesn't matter if you get beaten or not.
What genius devised this.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 30/03/2017 18:31:50    1973278

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Replying To s goldrick:  "for the first time in the history of the all-Ireland championships there will be games when it doesn't matter if you get beaten or not.
What genius devised this."
Yep. If your season is over it's very disrespectful to expect you to travel possibly the length of the country to fulfill some fixture for a team eyeing up an AI semi. All the players will want to do is forget the season, concentrate on their clubs but they cannot do that till some obligation to Sky Sports is met first.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/03/2017 18:57:55    1973289

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Yep. If your season is over it's very disrespectful to expect you to travel possibly the length of the country to fulfill some fixture for a team eyeing up an AI semi. All the players will want to do is forget the season, concentrate on their clubs but they cannot do that till some obligation to Sky Sports is met first."
I know it's awful, never happens in any other sport and shouldn't be allowed in the sacred AI series. You know, the series where the provincials are holding us back.
Here's some fixtures from the next 48 hours. I sincerely hope that a thread will be started in the name of counties below.
Leitrim v Waterford
Carlow v Wexford
Westmeath v London
Limerick v Wicklow

Long ould trek from Dungarvan to Carrick-on-Shannon and from London to Mullingar. But sure it's only the league and only Division 4.
Could we get Brolly in on this?

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 31/03/2017 09:59:20    1973446

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That's the League, where you have divisions, relegations and promotions to content with along with preparation for Championship. Playing Championship games when you're already out of the Championship and season over is completely different. But you already know this.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/03/2017 11:31:41    1973482

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Replying To Skelling:  "I know it's awful, never happens in any other sport and shouldn't be allowed in the sacred AI series. You know, the series where the provincials are holding us back.
Here's some fixtures from the next 48 hours. I sincerely hope that a thread will be started in the name of counties below.
Leitrim v Waterford
Carlow v Wexford
Westmeath v London
Limerick v Wicklow

Long ould trek from Dungarvan to Carrick-on-Shannon and from London to Mullingar. But sure it's only the league and only Division 4.
Could we get Brolly in on this?"
I think you misunderstand the concept of a league skellig. these fixtures are planned well in advance you know how many games you are playing and who you are playing against. you know that it's a table and you try to finish as high as possible or try to give new players a run out or build up experience or prepare for championship etc etc. The championship is supposed to be the holy grail , where every game counts, where it's do or die.
the qualifiers did away with that a little bit but still there was never a game where it was meaningless to both teams or even to one team.
There could also be a scenario with this new format whereby a team loses 3 times but still makes an all-Ireland semi-final.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 31/03/2017 12:51:23    1973520

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Also Skellig to say the provincials are holding us back is a bit of a mouthful. Local rivalry is the heartbeat of the GAA and derbies always carry a bite. The provincials draw the best crowds compared to qualifier rounds. I don't understand how people can be so dismissive of them, be completely against moving counties to even up the regions, but are huge advocates for an open draw. Be careful what you wish for.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/03/2017 14:22:03    1973560

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "That's the League, where you have divisions, relegations and promotions to content with along with preparation for Championship. Playing Championship games when you're already out of the Championship and season over is completely different. But you already know this."
You're right, I do know this.
However, the net effect is the same. In the big bad Super 8 scenario described above, there is one game of the competition left with nothing to be played for.
In all of the league games I listed, there is one game left for all of those eight teams and nothing left to play for.

sgoldrick, anyone that enters the All-Ireland series in 2018 knows that upon reaching the last eight, they'll enter a group of four teams in which they'll play everyone once. If they finish in the top two of that group they'll proceed to the next stage. That sounds very familiar to me. Almost sounds like the league.

By the way, I acknowledge the potential for dead rubbers and how it is very much undesirable. My main point in all this is that there are any amount of proposals to restructure the championship, but all have their drawbacks depending on who you ask. And therein lies the problem. There are so many stakeholders with different interests that it seems impossible to find the perfect solution, nevermind one that will pass at congress.

So why don't we all let the Super 8 fail (and it will as people are just hoping for some dead rubbers to get their teeth into) and in three years there'll be all sorts of unions, GPA, CPA and ICA who can have their wishes in place and we'll do it all again.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 31/03/2017 14:33:06    1973567

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Also Skellig to say the provincials are holding us back is a bit of a mouthful. Local rivalry is the heartbeat of the GAA and derbies always carry a bite. The provincials draw the best crowds compared to qualifier rounds. I don't understand how people can be so dismissive of them, be completely against moving counties to even up the regions, but are huge advocates for an open draw. Be careful what you wish for."
That comment was tongue in cheek. It was to highlight the fact that a lot of people think the provincials should be scrapped. I don't.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 31/03/2017 14:49:18    1973573

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Replying To Skelling:  "You're right, I do know this.
However, the net effect is the same. In the big bad Super 8 scenario described above, there is one game of the competition left with nothing to be played for.
In all of the league games I listed, there is one game left for all of those eight teams and nothing left to play for.

sgoldrick, anyone that enters the All-Ireland series in 2018 knows that upon reaching the last eight, they'll enter a group of four teams in which they'll play everyone once. If they finish in the top two of that group they'll proceed to the next stage. That sounds very familiar to me. Almost sounds like the league.

By the way, I acknowledge the potential for dead rubbers and how it is very much undesirable. My main point in all this is that there are any amount of proposals to restructure the championship, but all have their drawbacks depending on who you ask. And therein lies the problem. There are so many stakeholders with different interests that it seems impossible to find the perfect solution, nevermind one that will pass at congress.

So why don't we all let the Super 8 fail (and it will as people are just hoping for some dead rubbers to get their teeth into) and in three years there'll be all sorts of unions, GPA, CPA and ICA who can have their wishes in place and we'll do it all again."
Net effect is not the same Skelling. One is League, the other is Championship. I doubt too many players will be walking away from the panels of those teams you've listed this weekend. The Super 8 scenario could have mass walkouts and who could blame the players if their year is over. Are players then going to be sanctioned because of legal obligations to Sky Sports? This is an amateur organisation lets not forget and players are not commodities.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/03/2017 15:10:21    1973588

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Net effect is not the same Skelling. One is League, the other is Championship. I doubt too many players will be walking away from the panels of those teams you've listed this weekend. The Super 8 scenario could have mass walkouts and who could blame the players if their year is over. Are players then going to be sanctioned because of legal obligations to Sky Sports? This is an amateur organisation lets not forget and players are not commodities."
That's a very dramatic post. Mass walkouts because they have to play one dead rubber game against a Top 8 team? Players sanctioned?

Any player, or group of players that constitutes a "mass walkout" would probably be better served taking the opportunity to play a top team rather than throwing their toys from the pram. But sure if they walk, let them walk.

I can't see how anyone could be sanctioned if they did walk. As you say, it's voluntary so I'm not sure why you would even bring that up?

Any why is Sky being brought into this? Why not mention RTE? Sky and Duffy are the panto villains of our time. Nearly as bad as the mass defence and black card.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 31/03/2017 15:36:37    1973601

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also Skellig, I take your point about dead rubbers in the league but to have them in the championship too is a bit much. It just doesn't seem right in a supposed knockout competition.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 31/03/2017 15:51:54    1973610

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Replying To s goldrick:  "also Skellig, I take your point about dead rubbers in the league but to have them in the championship too is a bit much. It just doesn't seem right in a supposed knockout competition."
Well it hasn't been knockout for sixteen years but I take your point.

Like I said, the Super 8 I can take or leave. I'm just a bit sick of the lack of balance in the discussion. It's all about how bad it is rather than acknowledging the good and also acknowledging that there in no perfect solution.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 31/03/2017 16:13:51    1973620

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Replying To Skelling:  "That's a very dramatic post. Mass walkouts because they have to play one dead rubber game against a Top 8 team? Players sanctioned?

Any player, or group of players that constitutes a "mass walkout" would probably be better served taking the opportunity to play a top team rather than throwing their toys from the pram. But sure if they walk, let them walk.

I can't see how anyone could be sanctioned if they did walk. As you say, it's voluntary so I'm not sure why you would even bring that up?

Any why is Sky being brought into this? Why not mention RTE? Sky and Duffy are the panto villains of our time. Nearly as bad as the mass defence and black card."
How's it dramatic? A lot of players currently leave county panels as soon as they're knocked out of championship proper. And that's with the backdoor still to play. Why would they hang around for another game if the season is over? They will be down from having lost their games and the only football in their mind would be club or in the US. The manager will not be bothered too much either (unlike above)- and that's not to say he'll still be in the job anyway. But it's a fixture that the county have to fulfill. I'm sure giving a walkover will be frowned on, possibly a big fine i.e sanctions. The pressure will then be put on players to play even though they don't want to.
The reason for the Super 8 is primarily revenue driven and having a neat little package of "high profile games" to sell Sky. Any they will want all obligations filled. Whatever benefits there are (and I have acknowledged them) could be obtained in other ways. You say you can take or leave the Super 8 but you don't want to hear tell of any negatives said about it. Anybody who points them out is a panto crank. Doesn't sound too impartial to me.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/03/2017 17:04:25    1973638

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Replying To Skelling:  "That's a very dramatic post. Mass walkouts because they have to play one dead rubber game against a Top 8 team? Players sanctioned?

Any player, or group of players that constitutes a "mass walkout" would probably be better served taking the opportunity to play a top team rather than throwing their toys from the pram. But sure if they walk, let them walk.

I can't see how anyone could be sanctioned if they did walk. As you say, it's voluntary so I'm not sure why you would even bring that up?

Any why is Sky being brought into this? Why not mention RTE? Sky and Duffy are the panto villains of our time. Nearly as bad as the mass defence and black card."
How's it dramatic? A lot of players currently leave county panels as soon as they're knocked out of championship proper. And that's with the backdoor still to play. Why would they hang around for another game if the season is over? They will be down from having lost their games and the only football in their mind would be club or in the US. The manager will not be bothered too much either (unlike above)- and that's not to say he'll still be in the job anyway. But it's a fixture that the county have to fulfill. I'm sure giving a walkover will be frowned on, possibly a big fine i.e sanctions. The pressure will then be put on players to play even though they don't want to.
The reason for the Super 8 is primarily revenue driven and having a neat little package of "high profile games" to sell Sky. Any they will want all obligations filled. Whatever benefits there are (and I have acknowledged them) could be obtained in other ways. You say you can take or leave the Super 8 but you don't want to hear tell of any negatives said about it. Anybody who points them out is a panto crank. Doesn't sound too impartial to me.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/03/2017 17:05:43    1973639

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If an intercounty player walks away from a fixture against at Top 8 eight side in the middle of the summer then I think his manager will have learned a lot from it.
I didn't say anyone that points out the negatives to anything are a crank. I said that the overwhelming majority of discussion about the Super 8 is purely negative. I've rarely seen a post on this forum that mentions the other two elements to the change in the championship. They always try to find and focus on the negatives. Most suggestions of what should be done instead stand no chance of ever passing congress.
Fire ahead with them though.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 01/04/2017 17:35:33    1973865

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Replying To Skelling:  "If an intercounty player walks away from a fixture against at Top 8 eight side in the middle of the summer then I think his manager will have learned a lot from it.
I didn't say anyone that points out the negatives to anything are a crank. I said that the overwhelming majority of discussion about the Super 8 is purely negative. I've rarely seen a post on this forum that mentions the other two elements to the change in the championship. They always try to find and focus on the negatives. Most suggestions of what should be done instead stand no chance of ever passing congress.
Fire ahead with them though."
Maybe the reason for negative discussion is that most people feel this change is negative and that they were unfairly represented by their County delegates. My view is that while the Provincials in current format exist there is no level playing field - when a County from Ulster may need to win 4 (probably tough) games to get to the same point as a County from Connacht or Munster who have won two (probably less taxing) games.

Take 2015 Ulster Championship - Donegal beat Tyrone, Armagh and Derry to reach the Ulster Final, then lost to Monaghan. Mayo beat Galway to reach the same point in the AI series before beating Sligo. Donegal then beat Galway to reach the QF against Mayo before losing. So Donegal played 5 games to Mayo's 2 to reach the same point. Had they won Ulster they would still have had to win 4 games to get to the same point as Mayo, having won 2. Tyrone, similarly, played 5 games to get to the QF. It worked out better for Tyrone as they reached the SF but they did have easier games through the qualifiers.

This may become even tougher on Ulster counties if they have to play an additional 2 (tough) games in the 'Super 8' format to reach a AI Semi-Final. What levels of fitness or size of squads will be required?

With regard to getting through Congress - the 'Super 8' proposal got through Congress with 76% of the vote although the vast majority of GAA members did not support the proposal (as can be seen with the negative discussions & with the GPA & CPA ballots) so if the same tactics were used any motion can get through Congress.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 03/04/2017 15:36:30    1974870

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Replying To Skelling:  "If an intercounty player walks away from a fixture against at Top 8 eight side in the middle of the summer then I think his manager will have learned a lot from it.
I didn't say anyone that points out the negatives to anything are a crank. I said that the overwhelming majority of discussion about the Super 8 is purely negative. I've rarely seen a post on this forum that mentions the other two elements to the change in the championship. They always try to find and focus on the negatives. Most suggestions of what should be done instead stand no chance of ever passing congress.
Fire ahead with them though."
Ok Skelling, point out the positives of the Super 8 in your opinion and I will give my take on them.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 03/04/2017 16:05:43    1974890

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opa01, that's a valid outlook. But if you're Padraic Duffy and you've been left in no doubt that the intercounty players at all all levels want to retain the provincials, would you then go and do exactly the opposite of what they want and try to get rid of them? Could you imagine the uproar?

Yes, we've heard how it's not democracy and all that. We've also heard how the GPA made a mess of consulting their members on it. I've also heard from a few club chairmen and secretaries that there was no appetite to even discuss at their club meetings and there definitely was no interest from any club players. So we need to spoon-feed these various stakeholders?

Hardtimes, I think I've already pointed out the intended merits of the system, plus they're in the much unread proposal document but I'll put them up again:
The championship is enhance to the general public with eight additional games between the countries best teams.
It will be tougher for the likes of Kerry and Dublin to win the All-Ireland as they will play tougher games than they do currently.
Provincial champions now get a second chance, when before they were the only teams that didn't
Teams coming through the back door will be guaranteed a home game against a top side.
Home-venue first for the back-door teams reduces the likelihood of dead rubber
MORE MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY, which of course we all know is a bad thing as the association runs itself.

Like I said, I was in favour of the FULL proposal. The Super 8 bit is less relevant but there you have it.

Now, could you tell me what harm it does, compared to the current structure. And don't tell me about what wasn't done. Just focus on how/if it's made things worse.

Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 04/04/2017 11:36:44    1975318

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Replying To Skelling:  "opa01, that's a valid outlook. But if you're Padraic Duffy and you've been left in no doubt that the intercounty players at all all levels want to retain the provincials, would you then go and do exactly the opposite of what they want and try to get rid of them? Could you imagine the uproar?

Yes, we've heard how it's not democracy and all that. We've also heard how the GPA made a mess of consulting their members on it. I've also heard from a few club chairmen and secretaries that there was no appetite to even discuss at their club meetings and there definitely was no interest from any club players. So we need to spoon-feed these various stakeholders?

Hardtimes, I think I've already pointed out the intended merits of the system, plus they're in the much unread proposal document but I'll put them up again:
The championship is enhance to the general public with eight additional games between the countries best teams.
It will be tougher for the likes of Kerry and Dublin to win the All-Ireland as they will play tougher games than they do currently.
Provincial champions now get a second chance, when before they were the only teams that didn't
Teams coming through the back door will be guaranteed a home game against a top side.
Home-venue first for the back-door teams reduces the likelihood of dead rubber
MORE MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY, which of course we all know is a bad thing as the association runs itself.

Like I said, I was in favour of the FULL proposal. The Super 8 bit is less relevant but there you have it.

Now, could you tell me what harm it does, compared to the current structure. And don't tell me about what wasn't done. Just focus on how/if it's made things worse."
Skelling.
It's debatable whether it's enhancing the Championship with 8 extra games. Country's best teams is a bit of a stretch. There's 3 teams, 5 at a stretch with serious AI ambitions. The rest make up the numbers. What harm will it do? Time will tell I suppose. You might be right, I might be right but my hunch is it will increase the gap further between the top and rest.
Tougher for the top teams to win the AI? I have to totally disagree. If anything it's playing into their hands and completely ruling out any chance of a wild card pulling off a shock. Dublin 2014 springs to mind. Whatever chance you have of beating a top team once, you won't do it twice. What's the harm? Again depends on your point of view but to me it's elitist and cementing the top teams' stranglehold on major silverware. Teams don't come from nowhere too often but whatever chance there was of a fairy tale season for a small county is now gone.
Giving provincial winners a second chance is fair. But setting up a Super 8 is a very round about way of doing it and could have easily been achieved without introducing a group stage. For me the 6 day turnaround for the provincial losers against a team on a roll is a bigger problem.
Backdoor teams getting a home game against a top team? No harm at all. Although I don't ever remember this being a major gripe.
Home venue reducing the likelihood of dead rubbers? I cannot see how there won't be dead rubber games but time will tell.
Money? Sure great. I wonder how much a soul goes for on the open market these days seeing as it's everything.
The condensing of the Championship and removal of replays was a good move. But then they undid some of this by introducing the Super 8 thus extending it again. As someone else pointed out the Super 8 is getting a lot of criticism because there are many potential negatives. Some of the major advantages of the new format are nothing to do with the Super 8 so that separation should be noted. But sure we'll see how it pans out. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 04/04/2017 21:17:37    1975746

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