ondforty great post, spot on. That cannot be argued. The supporters know the same subs that are going to come on every day. Wish we had a man who can see the problem and fix it before the other team knows there's a problem at all, like the late great Eamon Coleman (RIP)

cavan97 (Cavan) - Posts: 369 - 24/07/2014 10:26:17    1625126

ondforty
County: Cavan
Posts: 317

A wonderful insightful post that looks very intelligently at our recent problems. Also well said Royalblue2, you sum up a lot of our frustrations.
I come from a background of 100% support for Terry and his mentors. But our Championship performance this Summer has left me totally bewildered and saddened. I had become so optimistic for our future but that has been completely shattered.The shock coming out of Breffni Park after the Ros game was palpable. It really amazes me that some people can watch the Armagh, Roscommon and Westmeath debacles and can defend those displays. They were an absolute disgrace. Call it what it was and stop making excuses!! All we hear from these people is we were missing 7 or 8 regulars. Pure rubbish. What about Terrys ultimate aim of building a large squad after winning 4 U21 titles in a row. All I can say that the lads who travel with me to every game (and I mean every u21, League and championship game)will not be going back to watch our beloved Cavan under the same system / management. As the lads above said certain players have been totally ignored or not considered. Niall Smith has been always one of our shiniest lights but has fallen completely out of favour. (Maybe he refuses to play corner back) Lads like Declan Mc Kiernan Niall Mc Kiernan and even David Givney.Josh Hayes Cavans best player by a mile all year, dropped for the Armagh game.
I myself would have a lot of admiration for Terry but I think he has been overridden by our Senior coach and some mentors.

So my solution is to retain Terry and bring in a complete new BACKROOM team.Put the emphasis on scoring more than the opposition.
Start picking our most talented players. Lets start treasuring what we have gained over the last 5 yrs and these lads will repay us with silverware. We are capable of scoring more than a derisory 5 points in a match.
Lets get some pride back into Cavan football!!

Brownred (Cavan) - Posts: 229 - 24/07/2014 14:46:23    1625375

I agree about changing some of the backroom management but don't agree that missing 8 players is no excuse. Its a young team and if you take experiened players out, you suffer,. Thats obvious. Not all good u21's make good Senior players and some need time to develop for Senior football

Should lock the thread and review it year.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/07/2014 18:06:45    1625511

ondforty
County: Cavan
Posts: 317

Terrific post, an excellent summary of our problems and very reflective of the way Cavan fans are feeling - distraught. Even yet.

The style of football this management team has adopted, well its obvious where it came from. But they've taken a good idea and turned it on its head. We are now so defensive that we are actually poor defensively if you get me. We have gone full circle with the idea, brought the style to its limits to the extent that it is entirely counter-productive and futile as a tactic. But the blanket defence of Donegal or Monaghan is effective. Why?

In our system, as you correctly say, players are not encouraged to take on a man and beat him, one of the most fundamental aspects of Gaelic football, an important skill, and one that you simply cannot ignore if you want to have any sort of success. I am bewildered at how someone dreamed up a crazy strategy where they thought you could win games without taking on and beating your opposite number. If we think of it as an experiment, well it failed miserably.

And I still haven't got an answer from those supporting the management as to why they believe things will change next year. If they didn't change after the Kerry game in 2013, they never will.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 24/07/2014 18:25:22    1625519

What answer do you want Ned, The co board are reviewing with the management how they can change the style for next year, did you not read that bit? We overachievd last year so suddenly changing it wasn't needed as such although it probaly should have happened. A attack minded coach along with Donnelly not sure if they could work together or could Donnelly change the defensive system to offense,

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/07/2014 18:49:48    1625528

FoolsGold
County: Cavan
Posts: 915

1625528
What answer do you want Ned, The co board are reviewing with the management how they can change the style for next year, did you not read that bit? We overachievd last year so suddenly changing it wasn't needed as such although it probaly should have happened.


Now you're talking ;)


How is it the county board's remit to get involved in team tactics?

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 24/07/2014 19:48:03    1625566

Ask the Co board

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/07/2014 20:03:11    1625573

Read that wrong, wasn't suggesting the co board should have got involved last year - the management should have changed the style, last yeqr was Donnellys first with Senior panel so they were only getting the hang of the defensive system and probaly wanted to continue for another year - before changing the style

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/07/2014 20:19:56    1625579

Looking back over years of Ulster Championships I think that the short-passing ultra-defensive game doesn't come natural to Cavan teams - or maybe Monaghan teams either. I believe it cost Monaghan the match last week. When the passing wasn't working out they hoofed it in to McManus who had 2-3 backs surrounding him. The rest of the forwards were out in the middle of the field. They didn't seem comfortable playing it laterally. We did the exact same against Roscommon, hoofing it to Jack Brady who was isolated with 3 Roscommon defenders. Whenever Monaghan reverted to strong runs through the middle at pace they looked dangerous - and if Finlay had been on target he would've left the Donegal blanket defence standing there every time.
There's a lesson in that for us. The late Eamon Coleman always said there's a time for holding up the ball and a time for playing it long - and winning teams seem to know which option to take most of the time. Playing it long is not the same as hoofing it in and hoping for the best. I think Kerry gave an exhibition of how it should be done against Cork this year. They had 12-13 men in their own half at times but you'd never think it because they broke with such speed that the Cork defence was constantly outnumbered. Armagh used the long ball very effectively last week too.

There's no pace or intensity in our game this year. I've seen club games this year that are way ahead of the county team in this regard, even at junior and intermediate level. The whole game plan is just far too complicated at present. I think lads are totally confused and I think they hate it as well judging by their body language. Any new coaching approach needs to address this right away otherwise we're going nowhere.

.

RoyalBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 198 - 24/07/2014 20:23:02    1625580

RoyalBlue2,

Good post. Good comparison with Kerry too. We should not confuse the blanket defence system with what Cavan play, I don't know what you could call it, someone should coin a phrase for it. We do play a blanket in the sense that we get 13 men behind the ball. So do Kerry at times. But thats as far as the similarities go. Cavan prefer to slow the game down to a snails pace and tire out the opposition. The thinking behind the lateral passing is that it will tire teams out, as they constantly have to chase the ball from one side of the pitch to the other, and if you do it long enough the opposing team will lose concentration/discipline for a split second and you may get an opening. It's the most predictable tactic in the book and easy to defend against.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 24/07/2014 20:49:51    1625593

Ned_Stormcrow
County: Cavan
Posts: 459

We should not confuse the blanket defence system with what Cavan play, I don't know what you could call it, someone should coin a phrase for it

I have one .... Sh*te !!!!!

StirringIt (Cavan) - Posts: 374 - 25/07/2014 12:01:00    1625760

Team that played Kerry last year in the All Ireland Querter final

Cavan: A O'Mara, T Corr, R Dunne, K Clarke, J McLoughlin, A Clarke, R Flanagan, D O'Reilly, D Givney (0-1), C Mackey (0-1), D McVeety, F Flanagan, M Reilly (0-1, '45), M Dunne (0-1), E Keating (0-2, 2f)
Subs: N McDermott (0-3, 2f) for R Flanagan, M Argue for Corr, J Brady for Dunne, J McEnroe for Givney, K Tierney for Keating

Most of those players were either injured or away for the championship. None started against Roscommon. I don't know how you think its pure nonsense that Cavan can miss those players Brownred and not have it as an excuse. Cavan doesn't have Dean Rock, Eoin O Gara to bring in.

Its a good job the Cork manager isn't from Cavan.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 25/07/2014 16:34:52    1625917

What a crock.
We've been feed all this bull about how strong the squad was.
When push came to shove we didn't have the squad.
End of story.

desagov (Cavan) - Posts: 208 - 25/07/2014 18:48:56    1625958

You will not beat any team of note with our slow defensive play. We are too easy to play against and stifle. Too slow in the build up, nobody able to break tackles. Playing the ball over and back and sometimes backwards allows the opposition loads of time to get back and stifle.

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/07/2014 10:50:04    1626045

FoolsGold: Fair play to you, you fight the good battle but sometimes we all have to accept when the writing is on the wall.
I have thought long and hard about what happened us this year. We got promotion which was our primary aim. I was at all the games and even though we seemed to have better footballers, better athletes, we still struggled to put poor teams away. I was happy to win games but in the back of mind I always feared if we came up against better and more organised teams would we beat them? And what happened???
I felt that we were making life so hard for ourselves by playing such a slow lateral type game. It was so unfair on our 2 inside forwards , Keating and Dunne who should have been getting quicker ball and also have some help up there with them. Yes the loss of Mackey was huge but we have to improvise and Mackey wont last forever. Killian Clarke left but Jason Mc Loughlin came in, so no real loss. What about our great long line of U21's?
But the Championship was a shock. I really dident expect that. It was as if we said to ourselves, we are not as good as other counties so we will play a containing game. What a dreadful policy. I have played and coached teams all my life and I always let the opposition worry about my team not us worrying about them.

I think people who are defending our dreadful recent run should think back on last years Q/F against Kerry.
1st half Kerry ran riot, we were scared to even cross the half way line. It was so embarrasing.
2nd half we make 3 or 4 changes , change our style and lo and behold we looked a better team than Kerry. A partly proud man leaving Croke Park.Even friends from Kerry could not believe it. Cavan people were castigated up here in Dublin for our dreadful 1st half effort.
After the match., Terry Hyland, and I applauded the man, said he got his tactics wrong in the 1st half.
At last I really thought that the 13 man defence and passing across the field had been banished for all time.
But sadly Terry has been overruled as I dont believe Terry is a negative man. In fact as long as I know him he was always very positive. A great team man and a man that has done so much for our recent underage development. So it saddens me to see his great legacy sullied.

So I think there should be a long period of reappraisal and if changes have to be meade then so be it.
Cavan football must come first !!!!

BreffniDub (None) - Posts: 377 - 26/07/2014 15:04:23    1626140

You are spot on Breffnidub....but every point u make was pointed out on this forum by myself over the last 12 months or so but nobody wanted to hear them at the time..!!! People got carried away with a couple of wins against poor opposition in last years back door but in truth we dont have enough quality players to get to the next level... As I said before 10 Ulster U-21's in a row are worthless if we are showing no progress at senior level...I would much rather we had good minors than U-21s...

Sean66 (Cavan) - Posts: 440 - 26/07/2014 15:27:40    1626143

lets get some real perspective here.
5 years ago Terry Hyland was asked to step into the role of Under 21 manager, now lets remember that at this grade Cavan hadn't won a single game in the previous 6 years. He assembled a backroom team designed to bring in the best people available, Anthony Forde, Ronan Carolan, Cairan Fitzpatrick, Adrian Harrison, the following year he added Joe McCarthy, and the year after that Peter Reilly.
The development of the under 21's was first and foremost to create teams that could and eventually would win, from these team the hope was always to progress players into the senior ranks that had a winning mentality and were individually talented.
the Senior team he inherited was plagued with player dissent, a losing mentality, and a squad that for the most part did not believe that they were capable of anything more then winning the odd match.

yes last year we had a great run in the championship, winning more games in the championship then we had done in the previous 4 seasons combined.

So here is the piece of perspective for you... measure the man on all that he has achieve in total and measure Cavan not on the difference from last year but rather from where they where when he took them over.

He started the ball rolling in the under 21's, changing the mentality of that set up, 3 finals in a row, 2 ulster championships recorded under his stewardship, That responsibility has been passed to Peter Reilly and Joe Mccarthy, who have now added 2 more ulster championships. He has won promotion to division 2 of the national league and brought a Cavan team to the Last 8 in the country.

The expression "throwing the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.

yes we didn't perform up to potential over the last few games, but Terry is the right man to bring them forward again.

notimpressed (UK) - Posts: 98 - 28/07/2014 10:51:41    1627061

Notimpressed, Take the positives and not the negatives can withstand a debate for so long. In performance terms We are going backwards. If we hadn't a lucky draw last year, we wouldn't have reached the last 8.

2012
Lost to Donegal, well beaten
We beat Fermanagh in the Championship, somehow turned it around from being 6-7 points down
Lost to Kildare, well beaten

2013
Beat Armagh, great result, couldn't finish Armagh off.
Beat Fermanagh, Couldn't finish Fermanagh off.
Lost by the minimum to Monaghan, more to do with Monaghans inability to score on the day
Beat Fermanagh, Fermanagh's indiscipline lost them that game
Beat Derry, Brilliant performance, best day out in a long long time. No blanket defence in sight
Beat London, couldn't put them away
Lost to Kerry, rabbit in headlights stuff, did themselves credit in the second half though

2014
Lost to Armagh, Well beaten all over the field.
Beat Westmeath, very lucky to scrape through in the end
Lost to Roscommon, Well beaten all over the field.

So this is our win record.
2012
Beat Fermanagh
2013
Beat Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry and London.
Armagh and Derry stand outs there
2014
Beat Westmeath

So out of 3 years of championship we have beaten Armagh and Derry of note
we cant really call the Derry game a great scalp after seeing what happened to them in the championship this year. As for the league, We couldn't put away ordinary teams like Fermanagh, Limerick, Offaly, and Wexford away. Just about getting past them. We then had a 10 minute spell against Sligo that won it for us and beat a weakened Roscommon side.

cavan97 (Cavan) - Posts: 369 - 28/07/2014 11:43:16    1627136

notimpressed is or was one of the names mentioned in his post.

Cavan97 very good reply.

I would be happy to keep Terry as he is but the back-room needs to be reshuffled big time as it's one dimensional and it will be even worse next year for every county can pick our starting 15+5.

mowbar (Cavan) - Posts: 452 - 28/07/2014 12:42:12    1627204

lets see what happens in the league next year. we will be up against stronger opposition than this year. let's see how we cope with that.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 28/07/2014 13:27:11    1627245