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Replying To Ratoath Royal: "The Louth Leinster final is 10 years ago this year. It has zero impact on what's happening today. And if Louth won, they would have won. It's bizarre that people seem to forget that Sludden hardly gave Meath anything for around 73 minutes of that game. Even Louth's goal came (albeit indirectly) from a terrible decision given against us. After Louth's goal, he gave them 4 or 5 soft, simple frees to put the game beyond doubt. Louth missed every single one of them. And, you forget that had Louth tried to play football and not spent the last 5 minutes wasting time again and again, we wouldn't have had the chance at the end. To try to make it seem like our current woes stem (even a little bit) from one moment in one game 10 years ago is, quite frankly, bizarre from a Meath fan.
You say that the rot started when Boylan left but it had begun a good while before that. 2002 - 2005 (i.e. the last 4 years of Boylan's reign) were arguably as bad as recently. We lost to Fermanagh two years in a row, lost to Dublin by 8 points, lost to Laois, lost to Cavan and needed a last minute point to bring Leitrim to extra time. The county board neglected underage throughout the 1990s and early 2000s and just seemed to think that the success would continue regardless.
People seem to forget that we weren't a "traditionally successful" county for the vast majority of the GAA's history. Our first Leinster title in the 20th century wasn't until 1939. Our first All Ireland wasn't until 1949. We didn't win Leinster between the years of 1971 - 1986 and in the two years before Boylan came on the scene, we lost to Wexford and Longford respectively in our first games in Leinster." I take on board your points. Great post. However I disagree on that 2010 Leinster final; I agree in that Sludden hadn't a good game. It was an erratic, narky game and Louth had chances to push on that they didnt take. I agree they soiled themselves in the last few minutes and it devolved into a shambles from them. Meath on the day got nothing and didnt play well, I accept those as facts. However the rest of your points on that particular games seems irrelevant. The rest of the country doesent care about that stuff... they care that Joe Sheridan fell over the goal line a minute over the stated injury time and threw the ball into the net and Sludden and his unpires bottled the call denying a very spirited Louth team on the day the win or at least a chance to save a penalty. They remember the babylonian scenes on the pitch when he blew the full time whistle. The story of the year was extinguished in a split second and Meath came out of that affair looking very sour and even secretly gleeful at the occasion. I agree with you as a fan that the game was a mess and Louth didn't win it when it was all on a plate for them but it doesen't stand the test of time to take that angle. To the rest of Ireland we were the villains, its that simple. And if I was to be honest I dont think we've ever looked at ourselves in the mirror in this county and tackled that issue properly ever since.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 11/05/2020 11:34:46
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Replying To Ratoath Royal: "The Louth Leinster final is 10 years ago this year. It has zero impact on what's happening today. And if Louth won, they would have won. It's bizarre that people seem to forget that Sludden hardly gave Meath anything for around 73 minutes of that game. Even Louth's goal came (albeit indirectly) from a terrible decision given against us. After Louth's goal, he gave them 4 or 5 soft, simple frees to put the game beyond doubt. Louth missed every single one of them. And, you forget that had Louth tried to play football and not spent the last 5 minutes wasting time again and again, we wouldn't have had the chance at the end. To try to make it seem like our current woes stem (even a little bit) from one moment in one game 10 years ago is, quite frankly, bizarre from a Meath fan.
You say that the rot started when Boylan left but it had begun a good while before that. 2002 - 2005 (i.e. the last 4 years of Boylan's reign) were arguably as bad as recently. We lost to Fermanagh two years in a row, lost to Dublin by 8 points, lost to Laois, lost to Cavan and needed a last minute point to bring Leitrim to extra time. The county board neglected underage throughout the 1990s and early 2000s and just seemed to think that the success would continue regardless.
People seem to forget that we weren't a "traditionally successful" county for the vast majority of the GAA's history. Our first Leinster title in the 20th century wasn't until 1939. Our first All Ireland wasn't until 1949. We didn't win Leinster between the years of 1971 - 1986 and in the two years before Boylan came on the scene, we lost to Wexford and Longford respectively in our first games in Leinster." As to your last point about not being a traditionally strong football county. For most of the period between 1939 and 2001 we were a strong Garlic football county and at times very strong. In those 63 seasons period we won 19 Leinster's and 7 All Ireland's and lost 8 other All Ireland finals.
It's not as if we had one flash in the pan team, we have had many great teams produced over a long period of time. If we are not a traditional strong football county there are very few counties who can be considered a traditional county.
Considering the tradition built up in over 60 years prior to 2001 and the growth in population since 2001 our drop off since then is remarkable.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 11/05/2020 12:56:32
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Getting hammered by Galway in 2001 was the beginning of the end. We never came back from that tbh
Meath10 (Meath) - Posts: 183 - 11/05/2020 13:02:13
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Replying To Young_gael: "I take on board your points. Great post. However I disagree on that 2010 Leinster final; I agree in that Sludden hadn't a good game. It was an erratic, narky game and Louth had chances to push on that they didnt take. I agree they soiled themselves in the last few minutes and it devolved into a shambles from them. Meath on the day got nothing and didnt play well, I accept those as facts. However the rest of your points on that particular games seems irrelevant. The rest of the country doesent care about that stuff... they care that Joe Sheridan fell over the goal line a minute over the stated injury time and threw the ball into the net and Sludden and his unpires bottled the call denying a very spirited Louth team on the day the win or at least a chance to save a penalty. They remember the babylonian scenes on the pitch when he blew the full time whistle. The story of the year was extinguished in a split second and Meath came out of that affair looking very sour and even secretly gleeful at the occasion. I agree with you as a fan that the game was a mess and Louth didn't win it when it was all on a plate for them but it doesen't stand the test of time to take that angle. To the rest of Ireland we were the villains, its that simple. And if I was to be honest I dont think we've ever looked at ourselves in the mirror in this county and tackled that issue properly ever since." What was there to tackle? We got a score that shouldn't have been allowed thanks to a poor refereeing decision. The disgraceful scenes that happened on the pitch afterwards had nothing to do with us so I've no idea why you're including that.
We've been on the receiving end of some horrific decisions over the years that have likely affected the results of games.
2005, Ciaran Whelan clocked Crawford at the throw in, got a yellow card.
2007 Dublin drawn game: Dublin's goal allowed despite it being a square ball, Geraghty's goal disallowed despite there being nothing wrong with it.
2007 Cork game: Noel O'Leary punches Graham Geraghty in the first half. Gets a yellow card.
2009 Dublin game (seeing a trend here): Ger Brennan not sent off despite committing numerous offences and the referee admitting afterwards that he mistakenly failed to add on enough injury time (if I remember correctly, there should have been another 5 minutes added on due to a serious injury).
2011 Kildare game: Farrell sent off and, incredibly, had the red card upheld despite literally doing nothing. Geraghty had a perfectly good goal chalked off too.
2018 Tyrone game: Last minute of extra time, blatant free within scoring range not given.
Did we piss and moan and demand replays? No. Did we go on the pitch and attack the referee or opposition players? No. We got on with life.
And who cares what the rest of the country thinks? Everyone hated Meath long before that happened. That just gave them another excuse. Even with the whole Christy Ring final debacle a few years back which Meath had nothing to do with, you had people come out of the woodwork claiming that Meath were trying to cheat (despite the fact that the Meath management actively tried to correct the referee's error at the time). People will hate Meath regardless. Nothing we do will change that.
Ratoath Royal (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 11/05/2020 13:18:24
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Replying To bdbuddah: "As to your last point about not being a traditionally strong football county. For most of the period between 1939 and 2001 we were a strong Garlic football county and at times very strong. In those 63 seasons period we won 19 Leinster's and 7 All Ireland's and lost 8 other All Ireland finals.
It's not as if we had one flash in the pan team, we have had many great teams produced over a long period of time. If we are not a traditional strong football county there are very few counties who can be considered a traditional county.
Considering the tradition built up in over 60 years prior to 2001 and the growth in population since 2001 our drop off since then is remarkable." I agree with the principle of what Ratoath Royal is saying, our first All-Ireland being in 1949 for example. We were slow starters. You're correct though, 100%. Correct me if Im wrong but Meath have 21 Leinster titles, far ahead of the third ranking team. They've 7 All Irelands and many more runners-up medals. Centenary Cup etc. The only viable rival in Leinster for Dublin bar none for generations.
There's only so far back one can go into history before your analysis looks ridiculous but going back as far as the 40s and 50s seems ok to me. I think too many of us Royals are too tightly strung in our appreciation of the past and our place in it. The reality is we are staring into a possibility of having little place in the future. Imagine waking up in 20/30 years and finding yourself stuck in that paradigm where our last all Ireland medal winners are being wheeled onto croke park on wheelchairs and us 50/80 year olds are still lamenting the good old days, now 60 years in the past. It would be funny if not eerily possible.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 11/05/2020 13:19:53
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Replying To Ratoath Royal: "What was there to tackle? We got a score that shouldn't have been allowed thanks to a poor refereeing decision. The disgraceful scenes that happened on the pitch afterwards had nothing to do with us so I've no idea why you're including that.
We've been on the receiving end of some horrific decisions over the years that have likely affected the results of games.
2005, Ciaran Whelan clocked Crawford at the throw in, got a yellow card.
2007 Dublin drawn game: Dublin's goal allowed despite it being a square ball, Geraghty's goal disallowed despite there being nothing wrong with it.
2007 Cork game: Noel O'Leary punches Graham Geraghty in the first half. Gets a yellow card.
2009 Dublin game (seeing a trend here): Ger Brennan not sent off despite committing numerous offences and the referee admitting afterwards that he mistakenly failed to add on enough injury time (if I remember correctly, there should have been another 5 minutes added on due to a serious injury).
2011 Kildare game: Farrell sent off and, incredibly, had the red card upheld despite literally doing nothing. Geraghty had a perfectly good goal chalked off too.
2018 Tyrone game: Last minute of extra time, blatant free within scoring range not given.
Did we piss and moan and demand replays? No. Did we go on the pitch and attack the referee or opposition players? No. We got on with life.
And who cares what the rest of the country thinks? Everyone hated Meath long before that happened. That just gave them another excuse. Even with the whole Christy Ring final debacle a few years back which Meath had nothing to do with, you had people come out of the woodwork claiming that Meath were trying to cheat (despite the fact that the Meath management actively tried to correct the referee's error at the time). People will hate Meath regardless. Nothing we do will change that." I have to take exception with your posts above. Its a good debate and I do not agree with your points so ill outline my argument below.
1/ The Leinster final of 2010 was an exceptional occasion and an exceptional set of circumstances that far outranks any of the matches you are mentioning and I have nothing else to add about that game. Those games will be forgotten in the fullness of time. 2010 wont ever.
2/ You are missing my point. I wasn't trying to trigger a series of rebuttals and a chat relating to referees because by-and-large football referees are poor and regularly have poor games and they really aren't worth discussing.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 11/05/2020 13:30:10
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Replying To Young_gael: "I agree with the principle of what Ratoath Royal is saying, our first All-Ireland being in 1949 for example. We were slow starters. You're correct though, 100%. Correct me if Im wrong but Meath have 21 Leinster titles, far ahead of the third ranking team. They've 7 All Irelands and many more runners-up medals. Centenary Cup etc. The only viable rival in Leinster for Dublin bar none for generations.
There's only so far back one can go into history before your analysis looks ridiculous but going back as far as the 40s and 50s seems ok to me. I think too many of us Royals are too tightly strung in our appreciation of the past and our place in it. The reality is we are staring into a possibility of having little place in the future. Imagine waking up in 20/30 years and finding yourself stuck in that paradigm where our last all Ireland medal winners are being wheeled onto croke park on wheelchairs and us 50/80 year olds are still lamenting the good old days, now 60 years in the past. It would be funny if not eerily possible." The previous post said as we didn't win our first Leinster in the 20'th century until 1939 so we shouldn't necessarily consider ourselves as a traditionally successful country.
The point I was making was 1939 to 2001 is a huge period of time to win a lot with a number of teams and means we are a traditional successful football county.
If we are counting the 63 season period from1939 to 2001 we won 19 Leinster's (the 2 others we won fall outside this time frame).
In sport attitude is important. Having a tradition and supporters expecting success should be used to push players to perform well.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 11/05/2020 14:25:10
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lads, good debate imo & a good starting to point for some sort of way forward. If we don't know how we got here, well getting out of the mess just becomes that bit more difficulty. and to me its not going to be just one thing. Getting it "right" for a County, where it achieves success is complex, and has many elements to it , so by all means we should debate these things as opposed to who was best player playing when....so , crisis of identity.....yea for sure...Look at Dublin under gavin...as opposed to Dublin under Pillar Caffrey?....did they carry themselves differently , even before they had achieved immortality...look how their Identity changed through Gilroy. Now on 2010...what I do remember clearly was a lack of Leadership.....if I am right one county Board official (actually one of the most senior ones ) in response to a replay request...suggested that it would have to be discussed with the players? Pushing them clearly under the buss....so Leadership, as another poster has alluded to , is another factor....what else?. ...in fighting?...personal grudge matches...settled through one side or another managing to get "their " appointment at some level...be it minor, senior or 21(20) …..what else...is their true cohesion between County squads at all levels.....is there any sort of Master Plan, with a comprehensive database of players ….id say plenty of people will say that there is...but just by putting a label on something doesn't mean its fit for purpose...the final point is...how much do we care anymore.....so passion...as a county., acknowledging the fact that success has alluded us..where is our passion for the game.... that comes back to connection with comes all the way back to identity...loads more...someone lese can pull it al together
Flathouse1 (Dublin) - Posts: 3 - 11/05/2020 16:22:02
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Good debate going on here. On our fall from the highs
Where did it all start? Who knows? We can point to boylans last 4 years not been great. The introduction of the back door didn't do us any good apart from 07, 09 and last year. We never really took advantage of the second chance and seen it as something dirty.
I don't personally think what happened in 10 on the field of play had any impact , with the absence of biggy and Stoney there is no link left to that team , however I do believe the delegates made a huge error in getting rid of eob, that for me was unforgivable and did huge damage to some of the best players we produced since 99. We then replaced him with banty, a good manager in his own county but was never really wanted in Meath , getting relegated to div 3 didn't help. Afterwards we probably needed a strong management of renowned standing, a Colm orurke , Gerry mcentee, even a return of Sean boylan to bring stability to a team not performing to their potential, we went with micko (shocking nice fella) who got rid of big game players , like juicy O'Connor, cian ward , Sheridan, Farrell etc, to be replaced by young inexperienced fast players , but as ward himself said lads can run 100mtrs in 10 seconds but couldn't put the ball over the bar. And that's not disrespectful to them, but they perhaps needed to be gradually brought in instead of thrown in.
IMO I think we have the right man now, I'll be honest I don't think we will get back to where we all want to be under Andy but we will be closer to it by the time he decides to go , I think we have a bit of steel to the team now, that we have been lacking. We need to get cuter though, and play the ref a bit more like dubs Donegal, Tyrone , Mayo and Kerry do.
Anyway that's my thoughts on it.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 11/05/2020 17:32:33
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Interesting chat here, in relation to 2015 I think we were mentally very fragile, the hammering by Dublin the year previous done a lot of damage as in the two years previous we had been competitive with them (a 7 point defeat in 2013 coming out of Division 3 was competitive in my view). Despite a great start and playing some brilliant stuff in the first half of that game once they started clawing us back, aided by some iffy calls on and off the pitch, you could actually see the confidence drain out of the players in front of you leading to panic and mis placed passes and wrong decisions, it was truly a very difficult day but remarkably in the following game v Tyrone in Omagh we could have come away with a shock win which was remarkable in the circumstances. In terms of everything overall since 2001 I often point to 2007, we won Division 2 beating Roscommon in the final yet due to more tinkering with the league we never saw Division 1, if that team had been allowed to play in the top tier I think it could have benefitted them greatly and brought them on, we could and I think should have beaten the Dubs in the first game in 2007 and had two major calls go against us, wrongly, if we had won that day I would have fancied a Leinster, 2008 and that Wexford game is a scar on my heart that hasn't healed, the team was shot after that and look what Wexford done that year in reaching the last four, I firmly believe that should have been us. As mentioned the worse thing to come from 2010 was the shameful treatment of Eamon O'Brien, used as cannon fodder against the county board, any potential progress was stymied for years after that call I believe. We must remember too as a county we have generally underachieved in terms of titles won, the '86 to '92 team should have won another All Ireland, same with the '96 to '02 team, we played in 6 Leinster finals in a row from '94 to '99 and won 2 of them. Even going back the team of the mid to late 60's had another All Ireland in them you would feel and in the early to mid 70's we had a very talented team who were unfortunate on more than one occasion against the Dubs. We fell away after the '54 win where another All Ireland could have been attained after '49 so realistically I always felt we should have another 4-5 All Ireland's to our name and a few more Leinster's too but could have should have etc etc. We have a team at present that I think is top 8 material, if it arises that we will have Division 1 football again next year, albeit by default, that could be the kind of break we have been searching for and needing the past few years, the positive effects of that should not be underestimated and I think players would see such an occurrence as a fantastic second chance and make them work all the harder to prove their worth, it could be a real turning point. Additionally this awful situation could realistically lead to some sort of levelling of standards, albeit temporarily, but what we see when football does resume, and I don't think inter county will be seen until 2021, could be very different. As always glass half full lads, we need positivity now more than ever and we need football and hurling in some shape, the summer is rudderless without it.
Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 11/05/2020 23:09:01
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Replying To Richieq: "Interesting chat here, in relation to 2015 I think we were mentally very fragile, the hammering by Dublin the year previous done a lot of damage as in the two years previous we had been competitive with them (a 7 point defeat in 2013 coming out of Division 3 was competitive in my view). Despite a great start and playing some brilliant stuff in the first half of that game once they started clawing us back, aided by some iffy calls on and off the pitch, you could actually see the confidence drain out of the players in front of you leading to panic and mis placed passes and wrong decisions, it was truly a very difficult day but remarkably in the following game v Tyrone in Omagh we could have come away with a shock win which was remarkable in the circumstances. In terms of everything overall since 2001 I often point to 2007, we won Division 2 beating Roscommon in the final yet due to more tinkering with the league we never saw Division 1, if that team had been allowed to play in the top tier I think it could have benefitted them greatly and brought them on, we could and I think should have beaten the Dubs in the first game in 2007 and had two major calls go against us, wrongly, if we had won that day I would have fancied a Leinster, 2008 and that Wexford game is a scar on my heart that hasn't healed, the team was shot after that and look what Wexford done that year in reaching the last four, I firmly believe that should have been us. As mentioned the worse thing to come from 2010 was the shameful treatment of Eamon O'Brien, used as cannon fodder against the county board, any potential progress was stymied for years after that call I believe. We must remember too as a county we have generally underachieved in terms of titles won, the '86 to '92 team should have won another All Ireland, same with the '96 to '02 team, we played in 6 Leinster finals in a row from '94 to '99 and won 2 of them. Even going back the team of the mid to late 60's had another All Ireland in them you would feel and in the early to mid 70's we had a very talented team who were unfortunate on more than one occasion against the Dubs. We fell away after the '54 win where another All Ireland could have been attained after '49 so realistically I always felt we should have another 4-5 All Ireland's to our name and a few more Leinster's too but could have should have etc etc. We have a team at present that I think is top 8 material, if it arises that we will have Division 1 football again next year, albeit by default, that could be the kind of break we have been searching for and needing the past few years, the positive effects of that should not be underestimated and I think players would see such an occurrence as a fantastic second chance and make them work all the harder to prove their worth, it could be a real turning point. Additionally this awful situation could realistically lead to some sort of levelling of standards, albeit temporarily, but what we see when football does resume, and I don't think inter county will be seen until 2021, could be very different. As always glass half full lads, we need positivity now more than ever and we need football and hurling in some shape, the summer is rudderless without it." Accurate and excellent post.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 12/05/2020 12:50:15
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Replying To Young_gael: "I have to take exception with your posts above. Its a good debate and I do not agree with your points so ill outline my argument below.
1/ The Leinster final of 2010 was an exceptional occasion and an exceptional set of circumstances that far outranks any of the matches you are mentioning and I have nothing else to add about that game. Those games will be forgotten in the fullness of time. 2010 wont ever.
2/ You are missing my point. I wasn't trying to trigger a series of rebuttals and a chat relating to referees because by-and-large football referees are poor and regularly have poor games and they really aren't worth discussing." It is a good debate and I apologise if I've come across as a bit cantankerous (combination of lockdown and the 2010 final being my trigger :) ) I agree that it was an exceptional set of circumstances, but it is still my view that had the roles been reversed and it was, lets say, Paddy Keenan who bundled the ball over the line to win the game, there would have been nowhere near the same uproar and, chances are, anyone from Meath who would have suggested a replay would have been laughed at. And, again, the reason that the examples I gave were largely forgotten was, in my view, because they went against Meath.
At the time I would have actually been willing for a replay to happen had I not seen and read about the scenes that occurred after the game. I saw animals among the Louth support (among them, adult men) hurling abuse at every Meath fan in their vicinity, including families with young children. Then you had Mark Ward and Sean Boylan (not to mention the referee) being physically attacked. All this basically hardened my stance against offering the replay.
Back to the topic, I'd agree with Richie regarding the treatment of Eamonn O'Brien set us back years. We had someone who had quietly gotten us to an All Ireland semi final and a Leinster title (yes!) in his first two years and he was unceremoniously dumped because the clubs wanted to make a point to the county board. Banty's reign was a disaster, culminating in relegation to division 3 by getting hockeyed by Louth in our backyard. MOD's reign seemed to be going somewhere until the hammering by Dublin in 2014. It couldn't recover after that.
Ratoath Royal (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 12/05/2020 14:30:39
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Re: Flathouse, Richie, Royaldunne,
Good input lads, a lot of questions raised and many are very important. I would agree in principle with Flathouse that hunger and interest are probably an issue at least worth talking about, Id never question any individuals but it does have to be asked. The game has undeniably evolved and changed and Meath, both on the pitch and off the pitch do seem lost in constant transition as regard squad and management. Until McEntee took on the job this situation was even muddier. The dismissal of a lot of squad regulars in the early 2010s, The numbers opting out yearly, the disposability of so many managers over a relatively short period, the questions legitimately raised about fitness in the earlier and mid-2010s, the mental fragility we became tied with... the lack of leadership on-field, the apparent lack of drive on field, these are all by-products of a seep effect in a slowly declining system. The questions have to be asked. Could be very real issues or just a series of bad coincidences.
Who really knows? Maybe its a 50/50 situation. The age-old silent blight of Meath GAA was selection; for too long Boylan stuck with tried and tested players, successful, tough, but to the detriment of the youngsters who were there in his final years. It is a widely known secret that players from certain areas simply dont get picked. Players who played Junior/Intermediate all their careers dont get picked, players who arent related to this fella or that fella, or who arent suited for a clique dont get picked. Again, a seep effect on morale and hunger in these areas continues to this day. There are two Meath's, maybe even three Meath's. An average lad from a showcase club around Ashbourne or Dunshaughlin has a better chance of making it then a very good player from around Oldcastle or Drumconrath or Ballivor.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 12/05/2020 15:16:11
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Replying To Ratoath Royal: "It is a good debate and I apologise if I've come across as a bit cantankerous (combination of lockdown and the 2010 final being my trigger :) ) I agree that it was an exceptional set of circumstances, but it is still my view that had the roles been reversed and it was, lets say, Paddy Keenan who bundled the ball over the line to win the game, there would have been nowhere near the same uproar and, chances are, anyone from Meath who would have suggested a replay would have been laughed at. And, again, the reason that the examples I gave were largely forgotten was, in my view, because they went against Meath.
At the time I would have actually been willing for a replay to happen had I not seen and read about the scenes that occurred after the game. I saw animals among the Louth support (among them, adult men) hurling abuse at every Meath fan in their vicinity, including families with young children. Then you had Mark Ward and Sean Boylan (not to mention the referee) being physically attacked. All this basically hardened my stance against offering the replay.
Back to the topic, I'd agree with Richie regarding the treatment of Eamonn O'Brien set us back years. We had someone who had quietly gotten us to an All Ireland semi final and a Leinster title (yes!) in his first two years and he was unceremoniously dumped because the clubs wanted to make a point to the county board. Banty's reign was a disaster, culminating in relegation to division 3 by getting hockeyed by Louth in our backyard. MOD's reign seemed to be going somewhere until the hammering by Dublin in 2014. It couldn't recover after that." Exactly, as you say a semi final in 2009 via a great qualifier run which included beating Mayo in a quarter final. In 2010 take what ultimately happened in the final out of it for a second, we beat Dublin in the championship for the first time in 9 years, we qualified for a Leinster Final did the first time in 9 years, two real significant monkeys off our back at that time but yet he suffered a humiliating exit and consequently the team suffered, to this day I hope those that were a part of that horrendous exercise hang their heads in shame.
That 2014 Leinster Final was a seminal moment, it did essentially destroy O'Dowd's reign and made the Meath/Dublin rivalry irrelevant to most onlookers, even those from within both counties.
Further to the 2010 saga I remember well Paddy Keegan being quoted that if the shoe was on the other foot he didn't think Louth would offer a replay and I can assure you they wouldn't of and neither would any other county in that position. The GAA shamefully left that call to Meath and we proceeded to accept the hand pass and play lateral for two days before kicking it away instead of kicking it out of the ground the minute we got it, there were a lot of moral compasses about that time who took joy in demanding Meath give a replay without looking at the bigger picture, certain sections of Louth support acted disgracefully towards officials, Meath players and supporters and some of their players done the same and were doing it even before the final whistle sounded. Of course that is swept under the carpet, forgotten about and never resurfaces all that is spoken about is big bad Meath and their lack of sportsmanship, most of the ones who talk like that don't even know the meaning of the word sportsmanship.
Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 12/05/2020 16:19:32
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Lads im just reading all these debates and fair play there good.
My understanding from them correct me if wrong.is managers, good ones are of major shortage in meath.
Now if im reading this right nothing has changdd over the years.and im just thinking if andy left tmw we would have nobody in most your minds to take over from him.up to his standard that is.
Now thats a trend over the years if im correct of either not educating coaches by the co board.
Or just putting in a coach that was just in the right plaxce or knew someone.or brought in for his access to major sponsorship.
Living on a wing and a prayer never works for any walk of life.
We have more population now than ever but cant seem to intergrate these people into the meath way is what im reading here.
Bernard flynn has questioned where has our meathness gone even about his own club.
But i look at walterstown and lad from there tells me they get very hard to get players from johnstown those big built up areas.question there is why so.
At the end of the day my outlook on meath team is if you get chance to play.a real honest chance not just lip service you dont make it count.move over next man up.
But to be perfectly honest listening to our manager talking bout players only from dublin side of meath does not fill me with hope.
Traditionally meath has had a scattering of player's from all over when they were successful.im not knocking these clubs.just what man in charge seems to b thinking.
Borderroyal (Meath) - Posts: 488 - 12/05/2020 20:39:07
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We are getting into it now Lads. I wouldn't discount Manager's as part of the problem/solution but I suppose my original post was for us to start looking at just the level above that , which is to go back to the role of leadership....and fundamentally, this is where we could start re-examining the past to help us move forward. there is a book "the Fish Rots form the head"....now it may look a bit over the top for what we are talking about, but its basic principle is straightforward, which is that change can be effected at any level of the process or Team, but if the Top is off kilter...then you are doomed to failure at the lower levels . So strong leadership is where we need to start thinking about....and to me that doesn't start with our Senior Team Manager., it is with our Exec and our County Board (PS...it applies to each Club as much) ….and if we look at the EOB disaster in 2010, the Banty appointment, and then onto MIcko….was there was a total lack of vision and leadership from those who are tasked to run the affairs of our game... now, if , say the County Board were getting these decisions wrong.... then how many other bad decisions were made be that at development squad level , in hurling/camogie development, integration of the of Ladies game, sponsorship, Pitch & facility development......why would bad decisions , stop at just the Senior football Management appointment?
I would suggest that , despite a lot of great individual work by coaches & officials , that really our lack of success was & will hinge upon a strong Team of people at the Centre....until we address that problem, we are , im afraid , destined for continuing with a degree of success , but it being infrequent & dependent upon individuals performing as opposed to the system as a whole. ….For what its worth , I think Andy, brings strong leadership, I may not agree with everything he does or says, but I do get a strong sense that he is clear on his vision ….but the key point is, until such time as we see the Appointment of the Manager of the Senior Football Team as being an important role , but that the Crucial Roles are above him , at County Board level....then id worry that we are going no where long term.
Flathouse1 (Dublin) - Posts: 3 - 13/05/2020 10:34:40
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Who is in charge of sponsorship deals for county teams?? We have had some bizarre ones where the deals just didn't seem that generous
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 13/05/2020 17:18:56
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Replying To Flathouse1: "We are getting into it now Lads. I wouldn't discount Manager's as part of the problem/solution but I suppose my original post was for us to start looking at just the level above that , which is to go back to the role of leadership....and fundamentally, this is where we could start re-examining the past to help us move forward. there is a book "the Fish Rots form the head"....now it may look a bit over the top for what we are talking about, but its basic principle is straightforward, which is that change can be effected at any level of the process or Team, but if the Top is off kilter...then you are doomed to failure at the lower levels . So strong leadership is where we need to start thinking about....and to me that doesn't start with our Senior Team Manager., it is with our Exec and our County Board (PS...it applies to each Club as much) ….and if we look at the EOB disaster in 2010, the Banty appointment, and then onto MIcko….was there was a total lack of vision and leadership from those who are tasked to run the affairs of our game... now, if , say the County Board were getting these decisions wrong.... then how many other bad decisions were made be that at development squad level , in hurling/camogie development, integration of the of Ladies game, sponsorship, Pitch & facility development......why would bad decisions , stop at just the Senior football Management appointment?
I would suggest that , despite a lot of great individual work by coaches & officials , that really our lack of success was & will hinge upon a strong Team of people at the Centre....until we address that problem, we are , im afraid , destined for continuing with a degree of success , but it being infrequent & dependent upon individuals performing as opposed to the system as a whole. ….For what its worth , I think Andy, brings strong leadership, I may not agree with everything he does or says, but I do get a strong sense that he is clear on his vision ….but the key point is, until such time as we see the Appointment of the Manager of the Senior Football Team as being an important role , but that the Crucial Roles are above him , at County Board level....then id worry that we are going no where long term." I think we could go on and on about these issues for a long time Flathouse. Absolutely you're raising a big issue there with the naming of the county board, obviously I haven't touched on it in any of my posts but I personally find other topics as more relevant. I could point out various incidents going back over to the turn of the millennium onward whereby senior officials made bizarre calls and decisions seemingly handicapping various teams, and management; from senior to an All-Ireland junior winning team, to underage teams. There certainly was a particular mentality prevailing which I cant possibly imagine gelled well with young players and officials. We're talking dinosaurs here. There is spilt milk in club circles linking some of this history to the selection question I talked about yesterday. Certain places aren't as cliquey as others, some individuals have a shady input on big decisions well beyond their ability or capability, and certain appointments have been very closely linked with jobs for the boys.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 589 - 13/05/2020 17:41:25
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Trying to pin point where the decline started is next to impossible, however it is very enjoyable to read so many well reasoned arguments (and not a dirty stroke in sight).
Without doubt the treatment of EOB was inexcuseable and todate I still do not understand the reasoning behind decision.
The loss in 2015 was a hard lesson and one we did not learn from, Westmeaths second half tactic (signs were there in first half) became the template to beat Meath over next few years-direct running at our backs, what was always our strength was now a major weakness. It took four years to rectify.
The 2010 Final, justified or not, is the stick that will be used to beat us for years to come, is it the reason for the decline-of course not, but I feel it has played some small part. The CB over several years watched over the decline in all grades and seemed incapable of putting the structures in place to keep up with modern football. Strength and Conditioning and fitness were major issues (work still needed in this area if we hope to compete for 70min+).
While we dithered, Dublin got their act together and a once great rivalry disappeared. Their dominance left many lads wondering if it was worth putting their lives on hold to play county football? How many decided not to bother?
In fairness injury has played a major part, we were not producing the talent that overcomes the loss of so many (midfielders especially) O Rourke, Gillespie, Meade. Add Kevin O Reilly, Seamus Kenny, David Bray sure I am missing some in that period, very difficult for any inexperienced manager to cope with.
Injury came back to haunt us again last season, a return to Div One demanded a near fully fit panel for Meath to survive.
Hard to believe the season should have started last week, a minor inconvience considering what frontline workers and all affected are going through, but its absence leaves a big void.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2151 - 13/05/2020 20:50:04
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Replying To seadog54: "Trying to pin point where the decline started is next to impossible, however it is very enjoyable to read so many well reasoned arguments (and not a dirty stroke in sight).
Without doubt the treatment of EOB was inexcuseable and todate I still do not understand the reasoning behind decision.
The loss in 2015 was a hard lesson and one we did not learn from, Westmeaths second half tactic (signs were there in first half) became the template to beat Meath over next few years-direct running at our backs, what was always our strength was now a major weakness. It took four years to rectify.
The 2010 Final, justified or not, is the stick that will be used to beat us for years to come, is it the reason for the decline-of course not, but I feel it has played some small part. The CB over several years watched over the decline in all grades and seemed incapable of putting the structures in place to keep up with modern football. Strength and Conditioning and fitness were major issues (work still needed in this area if we hope to compete for 70min+).
While we dithered, Dublin got their act together and a once great rivalry disappeared. Their dominance left many lads wondering if it was worth putting their lives on hold to play county football? How many decided not to bother?
In fairness injury has played a major part, we were not producing the talent that overcomes the loss of so many (midfielders especially) O Rourke, Gillespie, Meade. Add Kevin O Reilly, Seamus Kenny, David Bray sure I am missing some in that period, very difficult for any inexperienced manager to cope with.
Injury came back to haunt us again last season, a return to Div One demanded a near fully fit panel for Meath to survive.
Hard to believe the season should have started last week, a minor inconvience considering what frontline workers and all affected are going through, but its absence leaves a big void." All accurate points.
Just totally moving to another thing. What do people think on league outcomes? Will we be playing in division 1 next year ???
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 13/05/2020 21:22:27
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