Cavan Forum

Retirement And Drop Outs

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Replying To theweanling:  "it's very disappointing to see the drop off this year, when all panel members are counted we could be looking at well into the double digits of the squad from last year gone. being realistic if cavan were to stay up this year it would be a massive achievement. but look, whos there is there and who isn't, isn't!!! ironically enough now that the likes of mackey, clarke, mc veety, moynagh are gone other lads could flourish. this is their time to show resilience and leadership, the shackles are off and they're all in the deep end. it could be one of our most rewarding years in a long time."
That's a fair point.

I'd like to see Oisin Kiernan at centre back. He played well last year, considering the start he had to the year. Played at CB for Castlerahan for a lot of the year too.

I think Niall Murray can be asked to take on some more responsibility from open play. Maybe move him to centre forward.

I wonder will Mickey have someone earmarked for full forward with the inside mark now in play. Would Gearoid be too big a loss at midfield? Have we any other serious ball winners?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3821 - 13/01/2020 23:00:10    2259586

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Replying To theweanling:  "it's very disappointing to see the drop off this year, when all panel members are counted we could be looking at well into the double digits of the squad from last year gone. being realistic if cavan were to stay up this year it would be a massive achievement. but look, whos there is there and who isn't, isn't!!! ironically enough now that the likes of mackey, clarke, mc veety, moynagh are gone other lads could flourish. this is their time to show resilience and leadership, the shackles are off and they're all in the deep end. it could be one of our most rewarding years in a long time."
Nope.

Rest assured, this is not going to be a good year for Cavan. We'll finish mid table in division two and lose comprehensively to Monaghan in Ulster.

And that's the way it's going to play out for 2020 I'm afraid.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 14/01/2020 09:45:45    2259626

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Replying To fredflint:  "
Replying To The Quiet Man:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]Over the years I have spoken to many county players outside of Cavan. My main question was how do you manage to keep on top of your game year on year. Their replies were different but many said they train 7 night's or day's a week yes 7 nights or day's a week. 3 with their county two with their clubs and two in their own time. Thats commitment.

Be honest how many will the Cavan lads train. I know over the years management have handed out training programs to lads to do work in their own time how many have done it I ask. I used to watch some of these lads come in over the years to the Gym in Breiffni in fairness.
.
Respect is a word you see on kits and hear all the time who has got that RESPECT yes who.

My opinion is that we depend on manual coaching to produce quality this is not the way it should be for manuals can say what they like but have they ever seen the real thing. Go back before the manual coaches and remember the quality that was on display year on year.

You mention about one person you could rely on over the last 15 years this is not the case truth to be told.

Off all the players playing on the panel today and over the last 15 years how many play in their club position. I have seen lads that wanted to play for the county and were ignored, are these players not better than the ones that are on the panel for different reasons ???

When we get a new management I hope they allow them to manage in their own way without interference. I hope the new management will clear out the full back room staff and start a fresh. New broom and all that.

People talking about a five year plan well I for one don't agree with it. If you don't see improvement after two years it's time to move on.
I will say this and I don't care what the likes of fred the flint and others have to say. Cavan are where they are today because they had no faith in some of the previous managers. You inherit a style of play and it's hard to reverse it in 18 months."]Sean - you are having a dig at me there yet you have agreed pretty much 100% with my last post."]I am not having a dig at you but the fact you seem to confront me all the time I expected you would do the same again.
There is a chance to make Cavan a better team and now is the time to start. I know there are lads out there that will bust a gut for the jersey these are the lads to work with and develop them as a unit. I believe given the chance I could get lads together with the right attitude and the will to give it their all BUT there must be a reward for them after 5 years 10 years ect. Over the years I watch grown men leave Breffni with tears in their eyes these are lads that we needed but did not fit certain peoples criteria.

I would love to sit down with a half dozen a dozen even more and have a constructive discussion between and draw up a plan of action.

Even if we were al Club Breiffni m,embers it would be even better.

I don't say I have all the answers but collectively we might be able to make a change.

I have been in Breiffni over 40 years and I have seen things to understand where many things are wrong.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4533 - 16/01/2020 21:06:15    2260325

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The situation in the county setup is on a knife edge. It seems one of our most (the most) pivotal defenders in the group had to be asked back after leaving over training workload and organization. Whatever about fellas opting out to go travelling etc., this man was fully available and ready to go for the coming season. It would have been totally damning for the leadership had he not relented and gone back. Hopefully all this is part of a sorting out period but you'd have to wonder. Worrying times.

The remaining group look exposed for depth and will need huge support in the first round of the league. We have to make that happen and leave the judgments to one side.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 455 - 17/01/2020 17:10:53    2260489

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The negativity on here is still going week after week. You have lads saying, for example, we got rid of too many managers over time and then a paragraph later talking about new management! We're still talking about the lads that have left. Did anyone ever think that perhaps there had to be a change in attitude in the panel? Players who have left have spoken about this.
What we need is a committed bunch of players willing to put in hard graft and it looks like we have that so let's get behind them. As someone else said, we need 20 Martin Reillys and let's hope we have them.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 17/01/2020 22:30:44    2260539

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The negativity on here is still going week after week. You have lads saying, for example, we got rid of too many managers over time and then a paragraph later talking about new management! We're still talking about the lads that have left. Did anyone ever think that perhaps there had to be a change in attitude in the panel? Players who have left have spoken about this.
What we need is a committed bunch of players willing to put in hard graft and it looks like we have that so let's get behind them. As someone else said, we need 20 Martin Reillys and let's hope we have them.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 17/01/2020 22:30:54    2260540

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "The negativity on here is still going week after week. You have lads saying, for example, we got rid of too many managers over time and then a paragraph later talking about new management! We're still talking about the lads that have left. Did anyone ever think that perhaps there had to be a change in attitude in the panel? Players who have left have spoken about this.
What we need is a committed bunch of players willing to put in hard graft and it looks like we have that so let's get behind them. As someone else said, we need 20 Martin Reillys and let's hope we have them."
20 players who pass the ball laterally and backwards?? oh gawd...

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1411 - 18/01/2020 01:11:22    2260551

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Replying To wishfulthinkin:  "20 players who pass the ball laterally and backwards?? oh gawd..."
If that's a dig at Martin Reilly then you have lost all credibility as a poster on here. Martin Reilly is an absolute gem, both in terms of football ability, leadership and attitude.

benbulbenhead (Sligo) - Posts: 52 - 18/01/2020 10:04:08    2260560

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "The negativity on here is still going week after week. You have lads saying, for example, we got rid of too many managers over time and then a paragraph later talking about new management! We're still talking about the lads that have left. Did anyone ever think that perhaps there had to be a change in attitude in the panel? Players who have left have spoken about this.
What we need is a committed bunch of players willing to put in hard graft and it looks like we have that so let's get behind them. As someone else said, we need 20 Martin Reillys and let's hope we have them."
Yeah, the negativity is a real mystery.

I mean, one Ulster title in 50 years, relegation from division 1 twice in 3 years, two thrashings at the hands of Donegal and Tyrone in 2019, a handful of our best players walking off the panel in 2020, clubs that go out in the first round of Ulster more often than not.

I have no idea why people can't just be happy with all this, sure Cavan football is in absolutely wonderful condition with a very bright future ahead, it's not like other sports are making any inroads at all.

Up Cavan. Up mediocrity.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 18/01/2020 14:41:05    2260592

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Yeah, the negativity is a real mystery.

I mean, one Ulster title in 50 years, relegation from division 1 twice in 3 years, two thrashings at the hands of Donegal and Tyrone in 2019, a handful of our best players walking off the panel in 2020, clubs that go out in the first round of Ulster more often than not.

I have no idea why people can't just be happy with all this, sure Cavan football is in absolutely wonderful condition with a very bright future ahead, it's not like other sports are making any inroads at all.

Up Cavan. Up mediocrity."
Good man yourself - did you ever hear the glass is sometimes half full and not half empty? Go back eight years to 2012, Cavan were playing Offaly in a Division 3 game at home and losing. You talk about mediocrity - that was mediocrity.
We may not have had success but we've come a long way from that. We've made our way into the top ten counties in Ireland which is a lot further up than we were a decade ago. Progress takes time.
A good few counties would kill to even get a run of one season in Division 1 and have the likes of Kerry and Dublin coming to their home pitch.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 19/01/2020 18:31:26    2260847

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Replying To fredflint:  "I understood he wasnt panel at all this year, I was actually wondering why he came out with this announcement yesterday."
Hmmmm. Fredflint/wishfulthinking ???

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5280 - 20/01/2020 06:52:45    2260986

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Replying To tom84:  "The club scene is not why players are dropping out its the commitment they have to give. It's too much. They trained 26 days in November and another 3 days of meetings. That's not on for an amateur sport. We are not getting the best players into the county because it's madness the training they have to do.
Changing the club scene might help no -guarantee but if players are burned out by time they hit 27 28 29 when they should be at their peak it won't matter."
yes but is this not the case for every county. Why do Monaghan not haemorrage players like we do, what about Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, ?

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5280 - 20/01/2020 07:01:35    2260987

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "
Replying To fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]To be fair , I think Martin Reilly has been a consistently good player for us over the years.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5280 - 20/01/2020 07:13:30    2260988

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "Good man yourself - did you ever hear the glass is sometimes half full and not half empty? Go back eight years to 2012, Cavan were playing Offaly in a Division 3 game at home and losing. You talk about mediocrity - that was mediocrity.
We may not have had success but we've come a long way from that. We've made our way into the top ten counties in Ireland which is a lot further up than we were a decade ago. Progress takes time.
A good few counties would kill to even get a run of one season in Division 1 and have the likes of Kerry and Dublin coming to their home pitch."
Agreed, We have made progress from those dark days when Ofally saved our bacon by beating Tipp which saved us from relegation to Div 4( We couldn't even save ourselves by beating Antrim). I the past few years we have yo-yo'd between Div 1 and 2 pretty much like Roscommon but we haven't won a provincial title unlike our western counterparts. Perhaps the provincial structure has something to do with it too. However this does not answer the question of why we seem to have a disproportionate number of dropouts from our senior panel every year compared to similar counties.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5280 - 20/01/2020 07:26:56    2260991

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Replying To s goldrick:  "Agreed, We have made progress from those dark days when Ofally saved our bacon by beating Tipp which saved us from relegation to Div 4( We couldn't even save ourselves by beating Antrim). I the past few years we have yo-yo'd between Div 1 and 2 pretty much like Roscommon but we haven't won a provincial title unlike our western counterparts. Perhaps the provincial structure has something to do with it too. However this does not answer the question of why we seem to have a disproportionate number of dropouts from our senior panel every year compared to similar counties."
Monaghan have won Ulster titles though, we haven't. And let's not forget Monaghan were a few years banging on the door before they got success. Monaghan beat Armagh in the first round in 2004 and had decent success in the League then until they won their first Ulster in 2013.
In relation to Roscommon, they've generally only had one of the top 4/5 teams in the country in their province, we have always had two - Armagh/Tyrone in the noughties, Donegal/Tyrone since 2010.
Instant success is very rare. A team need to be making finals and knocking on the door for a few years.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 22/01/2020 20:49:36    2261659

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After all the analysis and comments, question is, can we survive in division with so many quality defections and retirement?

Virginia (Cavan) - Posts: 93 - 22/01/2020 22:24:14    2261674

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Replying To Virginia:  "After all the analysis and comments, question is, can we survive in division with so many quality defections and retirement?"
I think we will.

Should be beating Laois and Clare, they've suffered bigger losses than us IMO.

Then I'd fancy us to take something from Fermanagh and Westmeath games, or at least 1 of those.

I'd put Armagh, Roscommon and Kildare on a stronger footing than us at this point but it's hard to gauge where teams are at based on pre season games. We'll get a clearer picture after the weekend.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3821 - 23/01/2020 08:34:40    2261707

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Replying To Virginia:  "After all the analysis and comments, question is, can we survive in division with so many quality defections and retirement?"
We can still field a backline of:

Galligan
K. Brady - Faulkner - McLoughlin
Smith - O. Kiernan - C. Brady

There's nothing wrong with that IMO.

Then a forward line of:

Murray - McKiernan - Reilly
C. Smith - Madden - Connolly

Plenty of options at midfield too.

I saw a lot of Division 2 football last year. Its markedly below Division 1 level. Armagh will improve and Kildare should have been promoted last year but besides Armagh, Kildare and Roscommon, I would expect Cavan to be capable of beating all the other teams.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 24/01/2020 19:13:41    2261987

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