Cavan Forum

Retirement And Drop Outs

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Replying To tom84:  "The club scene is not why players are dropping out its the commitment they have to give. It's too much. They trained 26 days in November and another 3 days of meetings. That's not on for an amateur sport. We are not getting the best players into the county because it's madness the training they have to do.
Changing the club scene might help no -guarantee but if players are burned out by time they hit 27 28 29 when they should be at their peak it won't matter."
The players who have left obviously didn't train 26 days in November as they weren't there.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 11/01/2020 21:23:59    2258989

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Do Fermanagh say 0 Ulster tities so we won't commit? Saying 1 Ulster Title in 50 years is like Cavan have a devine right to win Ulster, because of the past. They dominated back in 40s and 50 when the 6 County teams weren't too strong. Then the school system changed in the North, and that followed into the county teams."
Never have I suggested that we have a divine right to win anything.

Fermanagh is not a valid comparison 45% of their already tiny population don't identify with GAA. Monaghan and Roscommon are valid comparisons.

If you attempt something 50 times and fail on 49 of those attempts, you need to change your approach drastically. The problem in Cavan is that we do the same thing over and over and over again and wonder why we never win anything.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 11/01/2020 21:26:35    2258990

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "The players who have left obviously didn't train 26 days in November as they weren't there."
I think a couple of them did.
Still madness

tom84 (Cavan) - Posts: 192 - 12/01/2020 00:09:05    2259018

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Monaghan beat Cavan in 13, 15,17 by 1 pt each time.
McManus was the difference each time. Monaghan are lucky to have a player like McManus.
The game in 2013 Cavan didn't have Gearoid McKiernan that year through injury. He would have made a difference. 2015, Givney and Keating opted out for the year. Again 2 big losses.

Players have been opting out regular since that. Hard to make progress when losing your best players. Monaghan don't have that problem.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2031 - 12/01/2020 03:51:11    2259029

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Never have I suggested that we have a divine right to win anything.

Fermanagh is not a valid comparison 45% of their already tiny population don't identify with GAA. Monaghan and Roscommon are valid comparisons.

If you attempt something 50 times and fail on 49 of those attempts, you need to change your approach drastically. The problem in Cavan is that we do the same thing over and over and over again and wonder why we never win anything."
Don't see Mayo players leaving the panel after attempting something 50 times and failing 50 times

JamsieMac (Cavan) - Posts: 425 - 12/01/2020 06:11:34    2259030

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Replying To JamsieMac:  "Don't see Mayo players leaving the panel after attempting something 50 times and failing 50 times"
Again, that's not a valid comparison.

Mayo routinely win provincial championships, and compete in AI finals.

Cavan never win anything and don't even compete for their province.

Weak argument.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 12/01/2020 09:50:26    2259041

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Monaghan beat Cavan in 13, 15,17 by 1 pt each time.
McManus was the difference each time. Monaghan are lucky to have a player like McManus.
The game in 2013 Cavan didn't have Gearoid McKiernan that year through injury. He would have made a difference. 2015, Givney and Keating opted out for the year. Again 2 big losses.

Players have been opting out regular since that. Hard to make progress when losing your best players. Monaghan don't have that problem."
Thats right, its all McManus fault.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 455 - 12/01/2020 10:38:25    2259043

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Monaghan beat Cavan in 13, 15,17 by 1 pt each time.
McManus was the difference each time. Monaghan are lucky to have a player like McManus.
The game in 2013 Cavan didn't have Gearoid McKiernan that year through injury. He would have made a difference. 2015, Givney and Keating opted out for the year. Again 2 big losses.

Players have been opting out regular since that. Hard to make progress when losing your best players. Monaghan don't have that problem."
Was McManus not playing this year when we beat them?

So there goes your argument.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 12/01/2020 11:26:31    2259051

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Good input MadgeKing.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2031 - 12/01/2020 11:27:22    2259052

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Monaghan beat Cavan in 13, 15,17 by 1 pt each time.
McManus was the difference each time. Monaghan are lucky to have a player like McManus.
The game in 2013 Cavan didn't have Gearoid McKiernan that year through injury. He would have made a difference. 2015, Givney and Keating opted out for the year. Again 2 big losses.

Players have been opting out regular since that. Hard to make progress when losing your best players. Monaghan don't have that problem."
For the record, they beat us by 3 in 2017 and were much the better team. Cavan almost snatched a goal at the death but deserved nothing from that game.

GallantJohnJoe (Cavan) - Posts: 307 - 12/01/2020 11:32:53    2259053

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "
Replying To fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 12/01/2020 11:57:59    2259057

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Replying To fredflint:  "
Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 12/01/2020 12:50:15    2259063

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Blaming the club doesn't make sense.
By all means I think the club scene should be revamped but it won't change the counties fortune's.
Because when a player plays well at club level he is called into the county. He then spends 6 to 8 months training and playing with and against players of a higher quality then he would at club level. So the fact that club level is not what it should be a player on a county panel spends more time away from their club than with it.
I believe the type of player we are bringing in is wrong. We have a lot of players who are very similar. We need more natural footballers. Who might not be as athletic or committed to the rigorous training schedule but we need to get a balance.
Also the development squads at underage needs upgrading. When you make an under 15 squad you get called in automatically at your last year for every age group after that. But if you don't get called in at u 15 it's very hard to get called in after that. A footballer at 15 has changed a good bit by the time he is 20

tom84 (Cavan) - Posts: 192 - 12/01/2020 14:33:45    2259081

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "
Replying To fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]Over the years I have spoken to many county players outside of Cavan. My main question was how do you manage to keep on top of your game year on year. Their replies were different but many said they train 7 night's or day's a week yes 7 nights or day's a week. 3 with their county two with their clubs and two in their own time. Thats commitment.

Be honest how many will the Cavan lads train. I know over the years management have handed out training programs to lads to do work in their own time how many have done it I ask. I used to watch some of these lads come in over the years to the Gym in Breiffni in fairness.
.
Respect is a word you see on kits and hear all the time who has got that RESPECT yes who.

My opinion is that we depend on manual coaching to produce quality this is not the way it should be for manuals can say what they like but have they ever seen the real thing. Go back before the manual coaches and remember the quality that was on display year on year.

You mention about one person you could rely on over the last 15 years this is not the case truth to be told.

Off all the players playing on the panel today and over the last 15 years how many play in their club position. I have seen lads that wanted to play for the county and were ignored, are these players not better than the ones that are on the panel for different reasons ???

When we get a new management I hope they allow them to manage in their own way without interference. I hope the new management will clear out the full back room staff and start a fresh. New broom and all that.

People talking about a five year plan well I for one don't agree with it. If you don't see improvement after two years it's time to move on.
I will say this and I don't care what the likes of fred the flint and others have to say. Cavan are where they are today because they had no faith in some of the previous managers. You inherit a style of play and it's hard to reverse it in 18 months.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4533 - 12/01/2020 15:02:40    2259093

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "
Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]Over the years I have spoken to many county players outside of Cavan. My main question was how do you manage to keep on top of your game year on year. Their replies were different but many said they train 7 night's or day's a week yes 7 nights or day's a week. 3 with their county two with their clubs and two in their own time. Thats commitment.

Be honest how many will the Cavan lads train. I know over the years management have handed out training programs to lads to do work in their own time how many have done it I ask. I used to watch some of these lads come in over the years to the Gym in Breiffni in fairness.
.
Respect is a word you see on kits and hear all the time who has got that RESPECT yes who.

My opinion is that we depend on manual coaching to produce quality this is not the way it should be for manuals can say what they like but have they ever seen the real thing. Go back before the manual coaches and remember the quality that was on display year on year.

You mention about one person you could rely on over the last 15 years this is not the case truth to be told.

Off all the players playing on the panel today and over the last 15 years how many play in their club position. I have seen lads that wanted to play for the county and were ignored, are these players not better than the ones that are on the panel for different reasons ???

When we get a new management I hope they allow them to manage in their own way without interference. I hope the new management will clear out the full back room staff and start a fresh. New broom and all that.

People talking about a five year plan well I for one don't agree with it. If you don't see improvement after two years it's time to move on.
I will say this and I don't care what the likes of fred the flint and others have to say. Cavan are where they are today because they had no faith in some of the previous managers. You inherit a style of play and it's hard to reverse it in 18 months."]That's a rambling and a half.

RHF (Cavan) - Posts: 600 - 12/01/2020 16:36:57    2259122

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "
Replying To fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]I am not disagreeing with you that the standard of players hasnt been there (although I do think there are a decent team there if you had full commitment from everyone - your givneys, keatings, mackeys etc are all still of playing age yet are not playing). You could certainly make a strong case that too many clubs and a weak club scene contributes to poorer standard of player. Not arguing with you there.

However, I dont think that is why lads wont play and walk away from the county team and I have already explained what I think is going on. Look at Martin Reilly and then look at fellas who join for 1 year and then feck off. Look at the difference in attitude. We need 20 fellas committed like Martin Reilly, how many do we we have? 5 or 6 maybe?

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 12/01/2020 20:22:57    2259208

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "
Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=Views:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "[quote=fredflint:  "[quote=Cavan_Shambles:  "In 2010, frustrated at the state of their club scene, the county board engaged former GAA President Peter Quinn to carry out a root and branch investigation of the Cavan championship.

His most important recommendation was that they reduce the number of senior clubs from 14 to nine.

The Cavan GAA community pondered this report awhile and after considering it in its entirety decided to increase the number of senior clubs to 17.


As a famed former US President once exclaimed in a debate to his rival, "It's the economy stupid", but to you Fredflint I say, "It's the club scene stupid"."
So players are leaving the county panel because of the club scene, explain that please."
Connect the dots.

Players are leaving because we are an also-ran team with no chance of winning Ulster. Why would they play for a county that has failed in 49 of it's previous 50 attempts?

The reason we're so bad is because of the standard of football in the county, particularly at senior level, it's absymal, and nowhere is that more evident than in the county champion's record in Ulster. In 2015 Kingscourt lost to kilcoo by 19 points. In 2019 Castlerahan lost to a team that was literally on the beer just hours before the game.

The reason the club scene is so lacking in quality is because we don't have the population to sustain the number of clubs in the county.

It ain't rocket science."]Did Cavan Gaels not make the final in 2017?"]They did indeed make the final (where they were comprehensively beaten).

Exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend."]Ok that's a theory. Where is your evidence thats whats happening, which players left and said that lack of prospect of winning was the reason they left?"]It's a postulation Fred.

The evidence is the players walking away in their droves.

My reasoning is based on past behaviour, which is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Cavan's past behaviour = 1 Ulster title in half a century.

I've given my theory. What is yours?

What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?"]The question we were debating wasn't "What do you believe is the causatory factor for the fact that Cavan have just one Ulster title in 50 years?" The question I asked you was why were players leaving. You said it was a poor club scene, leading to a poor county team, leading to lads leaving as they had no hope of winning.

I dont agree with that. We made an Ulster final this year, we have a manager who worked a miracle as a club manager. If we had everyone in their pulling together we could win Ulster in my opinion.

So why do we not have everyone in their pulling together - the commitment is too big people say. Partly but then every other county is doing the same lads, we are no different. In fact most others have been training at this level for years, that why so many of our players are so far behind in strength.

In my opinion we have a problem with player attitude. We have done good progress with development squads but what we dont have that the Tyrones and Monaghans have is this love of the county, desire to succeed to and utter pride in the jersey that they would never just hand it over to someone else without a fight. In my opinion, with some very notable exceptions, we have too many players that want to roll up and get the gear. Strut around town like they are special, but ask them to make sacrifices its no chance. The fact is in winning counties players make bigger sacrifices than what many Cavan players are willing to make. Our set up is no different than others. What we also have that should be an advantage is a deep heritage of football and of football success, we have failed miserably to leverage that and to make a connection with modern players that these great men from the past were born in their towns and townlands and they went and conquered Ireland numerous time. That is missing from Breffni Park and our development squads, if it was focused on more there would be more belief."]Your analysis is entirely focused on contemporary issues, and ignores the previous decades of underachievement. How do you account for the decline that set in after 1969 for example?

Look, would you not agree that after 50 years and just 1 title, that there may just be something seriously and inherently deficient in the way Gaelic Football is approached and administered in Cavan?

I mean, I agree entirely that there is an awful poor attitude among Gaelic Football people in Cavan, there is a loser's mentality there, absolutely no question about that, from players and fans alike, there is a "we're not worthy mentality", completely agree.

But the standard of player isn't there either. The only consistently good player we've produced that you could rely upon to make an impact in a game over the last 15 years was Cian Mackey. Whilst other players have ability, they don't have consistency. So there is a problem with the quality and standard of player we're producing, and where are players produced? With their clubs. There is no county scene without the club scene, the club is where the problems are manifesting themselves.

I just think it's time for a rethink, from top to bottom.

Because I firmly believe that a county like Cavan is now ripe for the picking for Irish rugby to make serious inroads. Whether we like it or not, rugby is growing massively in Ireland and has shaken off its "posh boy" image. It won't be long before the youth of Cavan have their heads turned by the prospect of playing a sport in which they're far more likely to have success. This is already happening in Kildare and Meath."]Over the years I have spoken to many county players outside of Cavan. My main question was how do you manage to keep on top of your game year on year. Their replies were different but many said they train 7 night's or day's a week yes 7 nights or day's a week. 3 with their county two with their clubs and two in their own time. Thats commitment.

Be honest how many will the Cavan lads train. I know over the years management have handed out training programs to lads to do work in their own time how many have done it I ask. I used to watch some of these lads come in over the years to the Gym in Breiffni in fairness.
.
Respect is a word you see on kits and hear all the time who has got that RESPECT yes who.

My opinion is that we depend on manual coaching to produce quality this is not the way it should be for manuals can say what they like but have they ever seen the real thing. Go back before the manual coaches and remember the quality that was on display year on year.

You mention about one person you could rely on over the last 15 years this is not the case truth to be told.

Off all the players playing on the panel today and over the last 15 years how many play in their club position. I have seen lads that wanted to play for the county and were ignored, are these players not better than the ones that are on the panel for different reasons ???

When we get a new management I hope they allow them to manage in their own way without interference. I hope the new management will clear out the full back room staff and start a fresh. New broom and all that.

People talking about a five year plan well I for one don't agree with it. If you don't see improvement after two years it's time to move on.
I will say this and I don't care what the likes of fred the flint and others have to say. Cavan are where they are today because they had no faith in some of the previous managers. You inherit a style of play and it's hard to reverse it in 18 months."]Sean - you are having a dig at me there yet you have agreed pretty much 100% with my last post.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 12/01/2020 20:24:24    2259209

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Regardless of what excuses the players make regarding leaving the panel ( travelling, tired etc, etc) , at some point we have to take a look at the management. Are they creating an enjoyable environment for the players to trive in? Are they being flexible around trainings and gym sessions? Are they willing to allow senior players are a longer break off during the winter to keep them fresh? Are they mindful of weekends off for players around Christmas and weddings in the off season? These are questions that have to be asked. Up on 7 lads have left left en masse and we are floundering. Cavan folk are fully behind the lads there at the minute but we need to make sure the best players want to and are willing to play for Cavan.

waynerooney11 (Cavan) - Posts: 130 - 13/01/2020 15:08:24    2259426

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it's very disappointing to see the drop off this year, when all panel members are counted we could be looking at well into the double digits of the squad from last year gone. being realistic if cavan were to stay up this year it would be a massive achievement. but look, whos there is there and who isn't, isn't!!! ironically enough now that the likes of mackey, clarke, mc veety, moynagh are gone other lads could flourish. this is their time to show resilience and leadership, the shackles are off and they're all in the deep end. it could be one of our most rewarding years in a long time.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 390 - 13/01/2020 17:00:58    2259461

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Replying To waynerooney11:  "Regardless of what excuses the players make regarding leaving the panel ( travelling, tired etc, etc) , at some point we have to take a look at the management. Are they creating an enjoyable environment for the players to trive in? Are they being flexible around trainings and gym sessions? Are they willing to allow senior players are a longer break off during the winter to keep them fresh? Are they mindful of weekends off for players around Christmas and weddings in the off season? These are questions that have to be asked. Up on 7 lads have left left en masse and we are floundering. Cavan folk are fully behind the lads there at the minute but we need to make sure the best players want to and are willing to play for Cavan."
So all the managers are to blame, how many managers have had lads walk. Cant be that all managers are wrong.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 13/01/2020 18:58:07    2259488

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