Cavan Forum

Continuous Failure

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I'd like to get your honest opinion on the answer to the below question.


What, in your view, is the prime cause of Cavan's continuous failure to win an Ulster title in the past half century? (1997 being the sole exception).

Mine is that our club scene is very low in quality.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 30/11/2019 17:05:08    2252306

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Different reasons. The size and Conditioning of players coming into the Senior team would be obvious one. Donegal U20s hammered Cavan in 2017. Jason McGee was midfield. It was like Seniors v Minors. I don't think you can blame Clubs for that.
Even when Cavan were winning the 4 in a row u21, beating Donegal twice, the Donegal players looked more conditioned and more ready for Senior. The likes of McBrearty and Ciaran Thompson.

The Club scene could be better too. I think Kingscourt played 10 games when they won the Championship in 2017,between replays and group games. And got hammered by Kilcoo.
In the North, Down, Tyrone they play straight knockout in the championship so there can be no complacency.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2031 - 30/11/2019 18:46:39    2252334

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A mix of the opening post and the first response IMO.

I think the number of clubs needs to be reduced, even if it's only for league.
Look at Corlough, Maghera, etc. How is a talented player going to be ready to make it on the county panel playing in a team that's taking a hammering week in week out!?

In terms of the conditioning of players, I do agree we always look smaller than the Donegals and Tyrones of this world. But we've had big physical teams in the past who won nothing either.

I think we've lacked a top top manager for some time now. I do think Terry Hyland did a good job in bringing players through but when he stepped aside, we made a huge mistake giving Mattie the job. We lost 2 years and the best years of a lot of our best players.

We've seen with Mickey that he can get the best out of teams. His achievements with Mullineachta are outstanding! He got us to an Ulster final despite every pundit tipping Monaghan to beat us, and then Armagh on both occasions.

I didn't think there was much more he could've done right for the Donegal game - we're just behing them in our development as a team (see 2 years lost point again).
I think the lads let him down in that Tyrone game. I understand some literally made their summer holiday plans the day the draw was made - that's shocking if true!

It'll be interesting to see how we do in Division 2. There's not much between the sides. I'd fancy our chances against each team and we should be aiming for promotion, but a couple of bad results and we're quickly looking the other way!

If we were to get promoted again, for the 3rd time in 5 years, under 3 different managers, then I think it gives us a platform to move forward from.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3824 - 01/12/2019 16:23:37    2252498

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Reading wonderful stuff like this from ''supporters'' and we wonder why players won't commit. We've one of the smallest populations in the country and have consistently spent the last six years in either Division 1 or 2, playing at a decent level of football. I'll take that over what we had in the latter part of the noughties and the start of this decade.
Whenever I think we've hit a low ebb, I cast my mind back to 2012 when we couldn't beat Offaly, the worst intercountry team I'd seen in a long time, at home and hung onto Division 3 status by a thread.

BreffniGuide (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 01/12/2019 21:00:39    2252553

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What exactly was wrong with what was said above? Mcveety said it himself the conditioning was beind the likes of Tyrone and Donegal

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2031 - 01/12/2019 23:43:52    2252590

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "Reading wonderful stuff like this from ''supporters'' and we wonder why players won't commit. We've one of the smallest populations in the country and have consistently spent the last six years in either Division 1 or 2, playing at a decent level of football. I'll take that over what we had in the latter part of the noughties and the start of this decade.
Whenever I think we've hit a low ebb, I cast my mind back to 2012 when we couldn't beat Offaly, the worst intercountry team I'd seen in a long time, at home and hung onto Division 3 status by a thread."
at the end of the day...the league is meaningless. Never see anyone commenting or lamenting that we haven't won a National League in 70 odd years. It's all about the championship so not much point using the fact that cavan have yo-yo'd from div 2 to div 1 a few times as a measure of success.

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1418 - 02/12/2019 09:51:32    2252612

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Replying To BreffniGuide:  "Reading wonderful stuff like this from ''supporters'' and we wonder why players won't commit. We've one of the smallest populations in the country and have consistently spent the last six years in either Division 1 or 2, playing at a decent level of football. I'll take that over what we had in the latter part of the noughties and the start of this decade.
Whenever I think we've hit a low ebb, I cast my mind back to 2012 when we couldn't beat Offaly, the worst intercountry team I'd seen in a long time, at home and hung onto Division 3 status by a thread."
You're strongly implying that everything is grand, and we should be content with merely bouncing between divisions one and two. Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, aren't particularly big counties population wise either. Additionally, Monaghan and Roscommon are both smaller than we are, so the population argument doesn't stack up (unless it's Dublin).

I don't see how a solitary provincial title in fifty years is in any way acceptable for a county that is fanatical about Gaelic football, with little or no competition from other sports.

This malaise is a half a century old, and shows no signs of abating, its time to ask hard questions.

There's not one sector of Gaelic football in the county that you'd say is in good condition, be it the schools, the underage, the clubs or the county team.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 02/12/2019 13:41:46    2252689

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Big problem is that it is no longer a past time or a hobby. It has become professional in all aspects except pay.

Rumour has it that the Cavan team are training 6 times a week. To be honest, that's a huge ask from anyone. Lads have family, work and study commitments which come before football.

I know Dublin etc etc etc but they can make training in a short bus train dart bike or car ride. Not many of them making long commutes to work etc.

The game has moved on in terms of training but not everyone can commit. Respect their choice and put up with whats left and support them.

Lads on here still whinging about Givney and Keating. They're long gone. Thank them and all the rest for their efforts and lets see whats coming through, from those that are interested in training.

County football is not for everyone.

StirringIt (Cavan) - Posts: 374 - 02/12/2019 14:03:19    2252696

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Replying To StirringIt:  "Big problem is that it is no longer a past time or a hobby. It has become professional in all aspects except pay.

Rumour has it that the Cavan team are training 6 times a week. To be honest, that's a huge ask from anyone. Lads have family, work and study commitments which come before football.

I know Dublin etc etc etc but they can make training in a short bus train dart bike or car ride. Not many of them making long commutes to work etc.

The game has moved on in terms of training but not everyone can commit. Respect their choice and put up with whats left and support them.

Lads on here still whinging about Givney and Keating. They're long gone. Thank them and all the rest for their efforts and lets see whats coming through, from those that are interested in training.

County football is not for everyone."
County football is for everyone...its the endless, mindless training and additional stuff that doesn't suit everyone. There are club footballers in cavan that year in, year out impress and excel even when marking/being marked by county trained players. Until you forget about hard training every day, you wont get the best footballers in a county jersey. There are certain footballers that don't need to train 7 days a week to still be good enough to play county.

wishfulthinkin (Cavan) - Posts: 1418 - 02/12/2019 14:34:10    2252710

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Replying To StirringIt:  "Big problem is that it is no longer a past time or a hobby. It has become professional in all aspects except pay.

Rumour has it that the Cavan team are training 6 times a week. To be honest, that's a huge ask from anyone. Lads have family, work and study commitments which come before football.

I know Dublin etc etc etc but they can make training in a short bus train dart bike or car ride. Not many of them making long commutes to work etc.

The game has moved on in terms of training but not everyone can commit. Respect their choice and put up with whats left and support them.

Lads on here still whinging about Givney and Keating. They're long gone. Thank them and all the rest for their efforts and lets see whats coming through, from those that are interested in training.

County football is not for everyone."
That's not the topic of this thread. I wanted the discussion to focus on why Cavan are so success starved, all counties face the same problems you listed above.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 02/12/2019 15:47:49    2252728

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-the county is too obsessed with football
-ironically lack of other sports as competition is part of the problem (ie athletics and soccer would be extremely beneficial to our footballer's development) we have very raw footballers in the county at the minute
-there are expectations that titles will flow anytime because ''we are Cavan'' it's our tradition, (1947, 5 all Irelands, blah blah blah) I'd call it arrogance.
-deep down though our lads know they're not good enough and that's where the fold in important games comes from every year (the, if we don't try they can't say we're not good enough paradox)
I genuinely don't think Cavan as a county wants to make the changes culturally in order to bring us to the next level. so get used to yoyoing and get used to a lack of silverware. because unless the county as a whole change their attitude this topic will still be spoken about in 20 years

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 390 - 04/12/2019 12:38:40    2253160

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Replying To theweanling:  "-the county is too obsessed with football
-ironically lack of other sports as competition is part of the problem (ie athletics and soccer would be extremely beneficial to our footballer's development) we have very raw footballers in the county at the minute
-there are expectations that titles will flow anytime because ''we are Cavan'' it's our tradition, (1947, 5 all Irelands, blah blah blah) I'd call it arrogance.
-deep down though our lads know they're not good enough and that's where the fold in important games comes from every year (the, if we don't try they can't say we're not good enough paradox)
I genuinely don't think Cavan as a county wants to make the changes culturally in order to bring us to the next level. so get used to yoyoing and get used to a lack of silverware. because unless the county as a whole change their attitude this topic will still be spoken about in 20 years"
Weanling - On your 2nd point, do you have any data to back this up? I think its good to get exposure to other sports but I think there is no evidence to back up that this is a major contributer to our problems.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 04/12/2019 13:10:39    2253173

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Replying To theweanling:  "-the county is too obsessed with football
-ironically lack of other sports as competition is part of the problem (ie athletics and soccer would be extremely beneficial to our footballer's development) we have very raw footballers in the county at the minute
-there are expectations that titles will flow anytime because ''we are Cavan'' it's our tradition, (1947, 5 all Irelands, blah blah blah) I'd call it arrogance.
-deep down though our lads know they're not good enough and that's where the fold in important games comes from every year (the, if we don't try they can't say we're not good enough paradox)
I genuinely don't think Cavan as a county wants to make the changes culturally in order to bring us to the next level. so get used to yoyoing and get used to a lack of silverware. because unless the county as a whole change their attitude this topic will still be spoken about in 20 years"
BOOM! I've been posting on this forum for what must be almost a decade now, and finally, someone calls it exactly as it is.

Cavan simply don't want to do what is needed to win. Happy to field a team, happy if we win, no harm if we lose.

And that, is the story of our malaise in a nutshell. And you're absolutely correct, there is no evidence to suggest this poor attitude will ever change.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 04/12/2019 14:03:24    2253183

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I don't think you can pin it to one thing that has lead to a lack of success. There are definitely things that can't be changed such as the population of the county, but I think it's conceivable that a change in a few aspects in how we approach the game that could help improve the overall standard.
I agree that integrating a few other sports would certainly help, I'd be a big advocate for basketball in particular as it has a number of benefits, handling, learning to play in limited space and decision making.
Athletics definitely also has a place, but I still think it's much easier to turn a footballer into an athlete than the other way around.
I also agree that having fewer clubs would help improve the quality within teams and improve opposition which can only be a good thing.
I don't think the effort point is valid because lads are doing serious training. However, I would suggest that based on the lack of "quality" for the lack of a better word coming through, that there is a fundamental problem with the juvenile system within clubs and potentially with the development squads. It has been a while now since I've had experience being part of any setup, but from what I've experienced and seen there is a lack of constructive criticism provided and worked on with young lads. If they are winning they are fantastic, and if they are losing its an all out disaster, but very little direct instruction is given to a player on where they can improve from my experience, other than they need to do better. If you want to improve the standard of player coming through I think it's important to coach lads specifically on different areas of their game that could be improved even if they are dominating underage club football. I appreciate that's a bit of a rant, and I think people who take time to train young lads and lassies are a great asset to every club, but I think you have to tackle a quality issue from a young age if you want the overall quality of club and county football to improve. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks as they say

BigEZ (Cavan) - Posts: 8 - 04/12/2019 14:54:42    2253205

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Replying To BigEZ:  "I don't think you can pin it to one thing that has lead to a lack of success. There are definitely things that can't be changed such as the population of the county, but I think it's conceivable that a change in a few aspects in how we approach the game that could help improve the overall standard.
I agree that integrating a few other sports would certainly help, I'd be a big advocate for basketball in particular as it has a number of benefits, handling, learning to play in limited space and decision making.
Athletics definitely also has a place, but I still think it's much easier to turn a footballer into an athlete than the other way around.
I also agree that having fewer clubs would help improve the quality within teams and improve opposition which can only be a good thing.
I don't think the effort point is valid because lads are doing serious training. However, I would suggest that based on the lack of "quality" for the lack of a better word coming through, that there is a fundamental problem with the juvenile system within clubs and potentially with the development squads. It has been a while now since I've had experience being part of any setup, but from what I've experienced and seen there is a lack of constructive criticism provided and worked on with young lads. If they are winning they are fantastic, and if they are losing its an all out disaster, but very little direct instruction is given to a player on where they can improve from my experience, other than they need to do better. If you want to improve the standard of player coming through I think it's important to coach lads specifically on different areas of their game that could be improved even if they are dominating underage club football. I appreciate that's a bit of a rant, and I think people who take time to train young lads and lassies are a great asset to every club, but I think you have to tackle a quality issue from a young age if you want the overall quality of club and county football to improve. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks as they say"
That's a good post. I see you're a new poster, welcome aboard.

It seems to me that there is a losers mentality in the players, we've seen countless examples of them giving up when faced with a better team, and it's very very rare for Cavan to win a game they're expected to lose. Monaghan have consistently beaten teams against the odds for the past few years, I just wonder what is wrong with our lads that they can't do the same. I think you touched on it with the lack of quality coaching, I commend the volunteers efforts, but there's something wrong somewhere. Time to identify it. Nobody wants another 50 years of this.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1022 - 04/12/2019 15:12:40    2253207

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Replying To Ned_Stormcrow:  "That's a good post. I see you're a new poster, welcome aboard.

It seems to me that there is a losers mentality in the players, we've seen countless examples of them giving up when faced with a better team, and it's very very rare for Cavan to win a game they're expected to lose. Monaghan have consistently beaten teams against the odds for the past few years, I just wonder what is wrong with our lads that they can't do the same. I think you touched on it with the lack of quality coaching, I commend the volunteers efforts, but there's something wrong somewhere. Time to identify it. Nobody wants another 50 years of this."
We've seen them giving up too when faced with the training required, some wont even go in.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 04/12/2019 16:57:55    2253218

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Why is it that you all want to demolish our traditional clubs , what improvement would that bring??

Tommy1234 (Cavan) - Posts: 6 - 04/12/2019 17:56:59    2253223

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Replying To Ned_Stormcrow:  "That's a good post. I see you're a new poster, welcome aboard.

It seems to me that there is a losers mentality in the players, we've seen countless examples of them giving up when faced with a better team, and it's very very rare for Cavan to win a game they're expected to lose. Monaghan have consistently beaten teams against the odds for the past few years, I just wonder what is wrong with our lads that they can't do the same. I think you touched on it with the lack of quality coaching, I commend the volunteers efforts, but there's something wrong somewhere. Time to identify it. Nobody wants another 50 years of this."
I think the difference in Cavan and Monaghan over the last few years is that they had a marquee forward in Conor McManus to get them over the line as well as a strong overall team. Cavan have been lacking that, Seanie Johnston was the last top class scoring forward that we produced but when he was at his prime the rest of the team weren't at the same level as they are today and then of course he went to play for Kildare. I had high hopes for C.Reilly as he looks like a natural scorer but I heard yesterday he might not be playing this year.

BigEZ (Cavan) - Posts: 8 - 04/12/2019 18:00:23    2253224

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Replying To fredflint:  "We've seen them giving up too when faced with the training required, some wont even go in."
I don't think you can say that now. Football should always be put second to the more important stuff in life, like an education or doing something you won't get the opportunity to do again. You always seem to just want to blame someone, or criticise lads that have been putting in a lot of work. You hardly think they won the Ulster under 21 championships sitting on their arses.

BigEZ (Cavan) - Posts: 8 - 04/12/2019 18:05:05    2253226

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Replying To BigEZ:  "I don't think you can say that now. Football should always be put second to the more important stuff in life, like an education or doing something you won't get the opportunity to do again. You always seem to just want to blame someone, or criticise lads that have been putting in a lot of work. You hardly think they won the Ulster under 21 championships sitting on their arses."
If you read back through years of posts you'll find I have been one of the biggest defenders of our players while others attacked them. When a lad is giving his all I'll have no complaints. However I now believe the players are getting too easy a ride. If you want to win you have to be willing to do at least what the other counties are doing. We clearly arent, we can do party buses and glorious defeats but we dont do the hard yards for whatever reason it seems not. You have to earn Ulster's and they are hard earned.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1298 - 04/12/2019 18:24:41    2253229

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