Cavan Forum

Cavan In The Qualifiers/ Super 8S

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "The last ten minutes of the u20 game saw Cavan close the gap to just two. Tyrone were there for the taking, and all we needed to do was show composure and deliver long balls into the square. The lads recognised that Tyrone were vulnerable to the long ball, and on several occasions our lads blasted the ball either wide, or played a bad pass, with time ticking away.

How is it the managers fault when a player can't kick a simple long ball? He can't kick it for them. Truth be told we're just not producing good enough footballers.

No manager would've won that Tyrone game because we have a mental block when it comes to playing stronger teams. We expect to lose, so we lose."
They shouldn't have to go for broke to close a massive gap. What was the plan on young canavan. Bit like Clifford in the AI semi, there was no plan for him either other than try 5 different players to man Mark him.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1230 - 08/07/2019 12:57:05    2207765

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Some serious questions raised after this latest defeat.

The Donegal scoreline did not reflect the game, to me that game was like a 10-point or 12-point defeat in reality. So two absolute hammerings in our two biggest games of the season.

So what exactly happened after the Armagh game?

And maybe an even more important question - what the hell happened after the Donegal game?

If the reports about a bus being rented to ferry players around pubs in Cavan are true, that really should raise serious questions about the mentality of the group.

Whatever about anything else, it speaks volumes about the attitude of the players. As an old neighbour said to me recently, it seems to be a case of "if we win that's great, and if we don't win that's alright too"

Not something we should be all signing up for in my view

declando (Cavan) - Posts: 38 - 08/07/2019 13:21:28    2207797

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Very poor show on Saturday . If Terry or Mattie we're involved I'd be calling for their heads.Got to question Graham's selection and tactics. Is he the right man for the job?
Worst performance I've seen from a Cavan team since the 70s.
Never been a fan of Killian Clarke because I could never see what he adds to the team. Still can't .
Brutal stuff can't find 1 positive ."
Terry was in charge for 5 years, what stage did you call for him to go?

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 440 - 08/07/2019 15:10:46    2207910

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "Terry was in charge for 5 years, what stage did you call for him to go?"
Every manager deserves 2 years at least. If there no improvement in 2 years yes it's time to go for any manager.
The performance is 1 thing but it's the attitude of the players I'd be concerned about. At least 2 players did their best to be red or black carded when things weren't going well. That's not acceptable.
Team selection was mind boggling this last 2 games. How could Fortune start ahead of S Murray on previous performances?
We played backs instead of forwards. Then took backs off and replaced them with forwards who played as backs. Where the sense in that?
Backs don't seem to know how to defend or tackle. Forwards still running up blind alleys getting turned over. That's going on this past 8 years.
No one seems to be learning.
As for commitment or pride in the jersey.. well that was non existent.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 969 - 08/07/2019 15:53:33    2207935

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I decided to wait a couple of days to let the dust settle on this one. leaving Clones was a mixture of emotions. I was a wee bit angry but mostly depressed. look its absolutely pointless talking about tactics, managers, party buses, named 15's, rows in the camp or whatever else you can think of because as a poster earlier said they were beaten as soon as Tyrone came out of the bowl. No doubting that if Cavan had got a handier draw we might be in the super 8's because Cavan would've perceived Laois or Clare as been 100% beatable. Tyrone on the other hand, they never believed. Cavan weren't there to fight. I honestly don't know if that's how they approached it or not but it was a performance filled with pure fear. As an old man said to me after the game ''lads calling for ball and them stuck to their men''. they didn't want the ball!!! Probably one of the most disappointing displays I've seen from Cavan and that list is, unfortunately, getting longer.
I will, however, stick to my guns in saying that there are players there good enough to play county. technically good players, no doubt in my mind. but there are massive mental issues to be overcome. fear, in many different capacities, being one of them. the problem was that no one wanted to take responsibility and no one wanted to help the next man on the pitch, in fact, it actually looked as though lads wanted to get off more so.
It's extremely disappointing but not one of them wanted to be ''carried off on their shield or ''die with their boots on whatever way you want to put it. I'm not sure anyone can put that attitude into the players to love their county that much that they'd fight to the bitter end no matter what the outcome.
I often think back to when Mc Guinness took over Donegal and the first thing he told them was to look outside, that there was a county full of people longing for a team to come along and give them something to be proud of. that's where we are at the moment and have been the last 50 years!!!!

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 371 - 08/07/2019 16:20:01    2207964

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Would just like it noted that Jack Brady & Martin Reilly togged out and played for their respective clubs in the league yesterday i.e. less that 24 hours after Tyrone hammering. This kind of commitment should be recognised & applauded. Fair play to them both.

ramor101 (Cavan) - Posts: 286 - 08/07/2019 16:21:38    2207965

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Lads, a few obvious things about game which already have been noted:

1) It was clear that Gramham has no managerial experience at this level, the team was operating at half pace compared to Tyrone. Again, at the half way point, the lateral passing begins and play slows away down. Tyrone could break at pace and had the quality to take the scores
2) The heart of the team is sound but 1/3 of the team is not up to the standard and there are no leaders. G Mc for example has the ability but not a leader. Mackey is guilty for slowing up the pace by lateral passing; however, was our best player in my view on Saturday
3) Most obvious point- we don't have the quality of McBrearty or McShane up front to get scores. Although McVeety is a class player, Tyrone could easily take him out of the game by doubling up on him. I am not sure if it is lack of vision or system played, but we never seem to make the right runs or find a man in the right location to take a shot. Running up bling alleys continuously.

I hope Gramhan can turn things around and find a few players for next year.

McGiolla (Cavan) - Posts: 41 - 08/07/2019 16:47:19    2207986

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Summary of Mickey's First Year imo:

Beating Monaghan and Armagh after the replay in good style makes the year a success overall as our c'ship non performances particularly in Ulster or against teams of that standard have been poor for 4/5/10 years.

The league was on the disappointing side of mediocre I thought. But then again, he did not have an ideal run in to it with the Mullinaghta situation so I will allow for that.

The Tyrone performance was as bad as I have seen even in the last 4-10 years. While the Donegal game was a 4 point hammering, at least we showed some endeavor and intensity but I suppose we wouldn't be the first team to not show up after a disappointing provincial final.

I wont be too critical though as MG can only work with what he has got, and now that he has the time, he needs to look closely at the club c'ship and underage structure to try to find more players for the panel that are up to scratch. Particularly ones with a bit of physical stature or that wont take long to be conditioned to have it, as in a good few cases we were just overpowered by Donegal and Tyrone, A few more lads with genuine uncoached pace like Stephen Murray would also be a good threat to add in if it was available. We have too many similar players operating right the way from the full back line right up to corner forward I feel, a few specialist threats need to found.

But maybe those kind of lads are not out there or wont commit. A lot of talk now again about the lads that are not getting in or going in but of the lads that I have seen playing for Cavan before, I think maybe David Givney & Conor Bradley are the only two that you could be sure would definitely make a big impact or offer something new. Givney more so because of his catching ability.

On the proper negative side (and I'm not calling for Mickey's head, I think he should get at least 2 more years regardless of what happens next year), I thought his gameplan and team selection was very naive particularly against Tyrone but also Donegal. The withdrawal of a forward against Donegal was not countered with any threat to make up for it, it was just bringing another man back. I think he should have went for it more in that game.

And then against Tyrone, I think he more or less persisted with the same planned that failed against Donegal and also Donegal had showed Tyrone how to show down our key men like McVeety, Martin Reilly, Mackey and Gearoid. I would have expected that Mickey would have known that we were facing the same setup and treatment of our key men against Tyrone and threw something different at Tyrone to keep us competitive. Like perhaps a full blanket defense to keep the game close and turn it into the worst game of football ever to be seen but at least a close one that we could be competitive in.

I'm not advocating going back to the blanket next year or anything like that, but I had higher expectations of what Mickey was bringing to the table, and I think lads didn't show up on the day as well, but with the game plan we went into the Tyrone game with, we were dead men walking.

But sure that's it for another year.. at least there was a few rips in extra Clones got out of it..

PatTheDandy (Cavan) - Posts: 173 - 08/07/2019 17:06:05    2207997

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I fell for it again, hook, line and sinker - I thought we had turned a corner but the old failings have come back to haunt us. I kind of agree with Mickey that we are not as bad as the showing on Saturday but we have a lot of catching up to do to bridge the gap to the top teams. I wasn't expecting a win, we have to remember that Tyrone team were in an all Ireland final last year, something we can only dream of but I was expecting a bit of fight from the team after the Ulster Final showing ... some of shooting was terrible ... the wides and missed frees at the end in particular were very poor.

I see references from other posters to the party bus and it was on the move yesterday again - now I don't begrudge the lads having a few beers but a party bus doing the rounds and the players visibly drunk is not the kind of message to send to the young lads (and ladies) wanting to become the next Cavan great.

After the Ulster final, the players were out in Cavan town kitted out with tops saying "Ulster Final 2019" - and unfortunately it struck a chord, I think that is the level of our ambition, we seemed happy to get there for the day out but we need to change the mentality and tops that say "Ulster Final winners 202x"! If they were making tops for Ulster final appearances for the Donegal lads they would have to re-open the fruit of the loom factory up there!

Hopefully we can re-group because div 2 next year will be no stroll in the park with a few ulster derbies, a half decent Clare team, our auld friends the rossies to name but a few just waiting to get a crack at us ...

sidelineview (Cavan) - Posts: 106 - 08/07/2019 17:09:10    2207999

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Replying To McGiolla:  "Lads, a few obvious things about game which already have been noted:

1) It was clear that Gramham has no managerial experience at this level, the team was operating at half pace compared to Tyrone. Again, at the half way point, the lateral passing begins and play slows away down. Tyrone could break at pace and had the quality to take the scores
2) The heart of the team is sound but 1/3 of the team is not up to the standard and there are no leaders. G Mc for example has the ability but not a leader. Mackey is guilty for slowing up the pace by lateral passing; however, was our best player in my view on Saturday
3) Most obvious point- we don't have the quality of McBrearty or McShane up front to get scores. Although McVeety is a class player, Tyrone could easily take him out of the game by doubling up on him. I am not sure if it is lack of vision or system played, but we never seem to make the right runs or find a man in the right location to take a shot. Running up bling alleys continuously.

I hope Gramhan can turn things around and find a few players for next year."
Every Cavan supporter was gutted walking up Fermanagh street last Saturday evening. Our worst fears about what could happen in this match had materialised into something of a nightmare. There is let's face it a shortage of quality players in the county. Success at underage while very important is no guarantee of future success at senior level. Many underage players will not make it at senior and others will drop out. Tyrone have being operating at the top level in senior football for many years. They have All Ireland titles in recent times and one of the best managers in the game. That's the kind of set up their younger players are brought into and you can't put a value on how that brings on young players. Mickey Graham has managed a club team to a Leinster title and great achievement that that is it's a big step up to facing a team with the experience and know how of Tyrone. The only way to try to beat Tyrone system is the long ball and I don't think we have forwards at the moment to play that system. Tyrone have done this to Cavan in games going back years and we can pass the ball over and back in our own half until the cows come home and Tyrone will watch and be happy. Also Tyrone were even pushing their full back line up into attack when they had possession drawing our forwardline up the field. So when Cavan did get possession their was no one available to kick to.

Kilnaleck Blue (Cavan) - Posts: 20 - 08/07/2019 17:42:25    2208023

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Replying To ramor101:  "Would just like it noted that Jack Brady & Martin Reilly togged out and played for their respective clubs in the league yesterday i.e. less that 24 hours after Tyrone hammering. This kind of commitment should be recognised & applauded. Fair play to them both."
That's very good to see.......but then again all off them should have been playing because they didnt use up too much energy the day before...!!!

Sean.66 (Cavan) - Posts: 293 - 08/07/2019 18:07:12    2208036

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Replying To ramor101:  "Would just like it noted that Jack Brady & Martin Reilly togged out and played for their respective clubs in the league yesterday i.e. less that 24 hours after Tyrone hammering. This kind of commitment should be recognised & applauded. Fair play to them both."
Fair play to the 2 lads who togged out for their clubs. Club being the most important part of the GAA

To the lad singling out Mackey for the lateral passing............every team does it when their is nothing on.....you hold on to the ball when Tyrone have 14/15 men back,.....you seen yourself anytime a 50/50 ball went in we lost it, due to their physical strength, not to mention numbers. Also, they were all at it, and he was always looking for a ball in to the FF line but it wasnt always on.

Mickey said at the start of the year that it will take a 18-24 months to get where we need to be.....On conditioning wea re well behind Tyrone so Andre Green will have a big job to do to get that right, but Im sure he will.

If you ignore Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal and Kerry, Im 100% sure that we can compete with and beat any other team in the country. Its not a bad starting point.

Mentality has to change though.....we were focused on Ulster Championship....when that was over we had no other goal....that has to change and Im sure Mickey will be looking at that too

Crash Bang Wallop (None) - Posts: 268 - 08/07/2019 18:21:51    2208044

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Replying To ramor101:  "Would just like it noted that Jack Brady & Martin Reilly togged out and played for their respective clubs in the league yesterday i.e. less that 24 hours after Tyrone hammering. This kind of commitment should be recognised & applauded. Fair play to them both."
Absolutely! Great dedication, two great lads. Sounded like a great game too.

patman92 (Cavan) - Posts: 49 - 08/07/2019 18:40:04    2208049

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It's not really a starting point. Any of the other teams outside top few, can beat each other. Cork are in Division 3 next year and would be capable of beating Cavan..

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 1831 - 08/07/2019 18:47:10    2208053

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I dont buy into the notion that getting to an Ulster Final means progress. Look, Fermangh were there last year and were hammered. Down were the same in 2017. Who even remembers? They are not counted among the contenders since. We got carried away after beating 2 mid range teams.
When it was time to step up a gear we were found wanting in all departments. That is the reality. Starting from anywhere else for 2019 is just kidding ourselves.
Faulkner can hold his head high, McVeety and maybe Moynagh too. Would Mickey Harte entertain any of the rest? You know the answer.
I am gutted today but self delusion is not the cure.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 427 - 08/07/2019 19:04:44    2208063

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A previous poster put it so succinctly with a very apt phrase.

Cavan footballers attidues over the past fifty years can be summed up as follows,

"if we win that's great, and if we lose, that's alright too".

It's an incredibly accurate phrase to describe the mentality that exists within Cavan football. It's all wrong, from the players, to the management, to the supporters, to the administration. We're all in this together, and we all need to reflect on how we can change.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 342 - 08/07/2019 21:10:04    2208160

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In the 19 years since the qualifier format was introduced, cavan have made the quarter finals of the all Ireland championship once. Once. And even then, we beat London to get there.

There is something seriously wrong with football in this county, that can't just be explained by blaming managers or complaining that a certain player or 2 have opted out.

GallantJohnJoe (Cavan) - Posts: 288 - 08/07/2019 21:32:35    2208177

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "A previous poster put it so succinctly with a very apt phrase.

Cavan footballers attidues over the past fifty years can be summed up as follows,

"if we win that's great, and if we lose, that's alright too".

It's an incredibly accurate phrase to describe the mentality that exists within Cavan football. It's all wrong, from the players, to the management, to the supporters, to the administration. We're all in this together, and we all need to reflect on how we can change."
great line .. A bit like Roy Keane when Ireland were at Euro 2012. Lets not just go along for the sing song every now and then. That man was a winner though I wouldn't pick out one winner inside that Cavan group. Perpetual Losers

blueskies (Cavan) - Posts: 126 - 08/07/2019 21:40:55    2208186

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Replying To MadgeKing:  "I dont buy into the notion that getting to an Ulster Final means progress. Look, Fermangh were there last year and were hammered. Down were the same in 2017. Who even remembers? They are not counted among the contenders since. We got carried away after beating 2 mid range teams.
When it was time to step up a gear we were found wanting in all departments. That is the reality. Starting from anywhere else for 2019 is just kidding ourselves.
Faulkner can hold his head high, McVeety and maybe Moynagh too. Would Mickey Harte entertain any of the rest? You know the answer.
I am gutted today but self delusion is not the cure."
Whatever about the huge disappointment at the level of Cavan's defeat last Saturday I do not like so called supporters running down our players. These lads have given up time and effort and even if they are not at the standard of many of Tyrone"s players they have made sacrifices to be on the panel. It was not lack of effort that was the problem Saturday it was tactically we were outfoxed and yes ability. Having to work far too hard to get scores.. If there are players in the County who can do any better let's have their names please?

Kilnaleck Blue (Cavan) - Posts: 20 - 08/07/2019 21:41:33    2208189

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Replying To patman92:  "Absolutely! Great dedication, two great lads. Sounded like a great game too."
yes. i think it was disgusting that Martin was taken off at half-time against Tyrone .

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5233 - 08/07/2019 22:45:48    2208238

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