Cavan Forum

Next steps?

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Sean o Rinn the CB need to help the clubs out first and maybe they might get help in return.
How many championship games last year were fixed for 8pm on a Sunday night. ?
I remember one instance where kingscourt were playing at 8pm on a Sunday night . School next day. It's a long trip home to Kingscourt at 10pm for anyone with kids.
Little consideration must be given in the timing of these fixtures.
I believe when the CB help and respect clubs well clubs will help and respect the CB.
At the moment it doesn't work either way ."
Sean o Rinn the CB need to help the clubs out first and maybe they might get help in return.
How many championship games last year were fixed for 8pm on a Sunday night. ?
I remember one instance where kingscourt were playing at 8pm on a Sunday night . School next day. It's a long trip home to Kingscourt at 10pm for anyone with kids.
Little consideration must be given in the timing of these fixtures.
I believe when the CB help and respect clubs well clubs will help and respect the CB.
At the moment it doesn't work either way .

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts:127 - 12/07/2017 15:43:33 2015666
I understand what you are saying and many more have been saying it for a few years but only the clubs can solve this I believe. I have nothing to do with fixtures CCC my roll is just having the pitch ready.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4488 - 12/07/2017 16:30:52    2015693

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Replying To IamADragon:  "Next steps? - Acceptance is the first step towards recovery, we need to accept that we aren't very good at football and we haven't been very good for some time now."
We have plenty of good footballers. We have better footballers than Monaghan IMO!

But they have established themselves as a top 6 team while we are impossible to gauge because we're so inconsistent.

They have 1 top top player in McManus and they have built their team around him . They're compact, physical, risk averse, and favour athletes over natural footballers. They realise where their strength lies and the play to that strength - unashamedly so!

We don't have a mcmanus. So we need to identify where our strengths lie and set up accordingly. The way we set up against Kerry in Breffni wasn't far off - we invited them onto us, tackled well and dispossessed them, then moved the ball forward directly and quickly. The only part of our play I didn't like was the concession of their kickouts. But that's a small tweak to an otherwise successful system (and no other team has a midfielder like David Moran so I can understand why we sat back).

Mayo away is another good example. Those were by far our best performances of the year yet we abandoned that gameplan completely in the championship!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3587 - 12/07/2017 16:56:46    2015705

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Replying To cavanman47:  "We have plenty of good footballers. We have better footballers than Monaghan IMO!

But they have established themselves as a top 6 team while we are impossible to gauge because we're so inconsistent.

They have 1 top top player in McManus and they have built their team around him . They're compact, physical, risk averse, and favour athletes over natural footballers. They realise where their strength lies and the play to that strength - unashamedly so!

We don't have a mcmanus. So we need to identify where our strengths lie and set up accordingly. The way we set up against Kerry in Breffni wasn't far off - we invited them onto us, tackled well and dispossessed them, then moved the ball forward directly and quickly. The only part of our play I didn't like was the concession of their kickouts. But that's a small tweak to an otherwise successful system (and no other team has a midfielder like David Moran so I can understand why we sat back).

Mayo away is another good example. Those were by far our best performances of the year yet we abandoned that gameplan completely in the championship!"
Acceptance is indeed the first step to change. Believing we have players to match the likes of Monaghan is just more head-in-the-sand stuff from delusional Cavan supporters. They should not be the benchmark anyway, but a simple question for you. How many of our lads would be nailed on starters in their average enough team? I would give you Faulkner, McVeety and Killian Clarke at a push. Ask the question in reverse. You would have beggan, 2 wylies, 2 hughes, walsh, mcmanus, oconnell, mccarthy, and probably Carey too. And how many of all these would make Tyrone? None from Cavan, 2 from monaghan. Time to get real.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 427 - 12/07/2017 18:52:35    2015775

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Replying To MadgeKing:  "Acceptance is indeed the first step to change. Believing we have players to match the likes of Monaghan is just more head-in-the-sand stuff from delusional Cavan supporters. They should not be the benchmark anyway, but a simple question for you. How many of our lads would be nailed on starters in their average enough team? I would give you Faulkner, McVeety and Killian Clarke at a push. Ask the question in reverse. You would have beggan, 2 wylies, 2 hughes, walsh, mcmanus, oconnell, mccarthy, and probably Carey too. And how many of all these would make Tyrone? None from Cavan, 2 from monaghan. Time to get real."
He's been the difference every time we've played them in the championship since he broke into their senior team. The only difference! The rest of those players you named are good at the specific role given to them and play well as a unit. Wylie for example is good when well protected but was destroyed when down got quick ball in. i.e. individually he's a very average full back.

I agree they shouldn't be the benchmark, but I was giving an example of a team accepting where their strengths lie and playing to those strengths. We did it in the league and we beat Mayo and drew with Kerry. We did the opposite in the championship and look how that went.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3587 - 12/07/2017 20:08:51    2015792

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Replying To cavanman47:  "He's been the difference every time we've played them in the championship since he broke into their senior team. The only difference! The rest of those players you named are good at the specific role given to them and play well as a unit. Wylie for example is good when well protected but was destroyed when down got quick ball in. i.e. individually he's a very average full back.

I agree they shouldn't be the benchmark, but I was giving an example of a team accepting where their strengths lie and playing to those strengths. We did it in the league and we beat Mayo and drew with Kerry. We did the opposite in the championship and look how that went."
The question still stands. How many guaranteed starters?
Wylie would start at no.6 for Cavan by the way.

MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 427 - 12/07/2017 23:04:26    2015865

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Replying To MadgeKing:  "The question still stands. How many guaranteed starters?
Wylie would start at no.6 for Cavan by the way."
I'd start Killian Clarke at 6 for Cavan - you know, the man who marked Killian O'Connor out of it in Castlebar.
I don't think Wylie would displace him but look, you do - that's sport and opinions differ.

Considering Gearoid McKiernan makes the Ulster team (we're the 1 province who take the railway cup seriously) it's safe to say he's make the Monaghan team. And you can be sure Malachy O'Rourke would get the best out of him. Same goes for Faulkner, Mackey, Mcvitty, Martin Reilly, Moynagh, a fit Rory Dunne, and of course Givney if he was around.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3587 - 13/07/2017 07:52:46    2015901

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I'd start Killian Clarke at 6 for Cavan - you know, the man who marked Killian O'Connor out of it in Castlebar.
I don't think Wylie would displace him but look, you do - that's sport and opinions differ.

Considering Gearoid McKiernan makes the Ulster team (we're the 1 province who take the railway cup seriously) it's safe to say he's make the Monaghan team. And you can be sure Malachy O'Rourke would get the best out of him. Same goes for Faulkner, Mackey, Mcvitty, Martin Reilly, Moynagh, a fit Rory Dunne, and of course Givney if he was around."
All these players you mentioned are fine footballers but when have any of them stepped up when things were going against us in a tight game and got us over the line?
Take for example the Gaels in their prime , when things went wrong or they were under pressure , players like chesty, Collins , lyng , Johnston could step up and dig them out of a hole.
We don't have that at county level .our big experienced players don't perform when we need them most.
When the going gets tough we are found wanting like against Tipp.
Is easy for our players to tag on 1-4 when your 10 points up but not so easy to kick 2 when we're 2 down.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 948 - 13/07/2017 10:42:36    2015979

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "All these players you mentioned are fine footballers but when have any of them stepped up when things were going against us in a tight game and got us over the line?
Take for example the Gaels in their prime , when things went wrong or they were under pressure , players like chesty, Collins , lyng , Johnston could step up and dig them out of a hole.
We don't have that at county level .our big experienced players don't perform when we need them most.
When the going gets tough we are found wanting like against Tipp.
Is easy for our players to tag on 1-4 when your 10 points up but not so easy to kick 2 when we're 2 down."
The might have done that at the level of cavan. When they stepped up to ulster level I don't remember any of these Gaels players stepping up. A team of county footballers who couldn't get close to winning an ulster club.

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1229 - 13/07/2017 11:40:02    2016009

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Replying To cavanman47:  "I'd start Killian Clarke at 6 for Cavan - you know, the man who marked Killian O'Connor out of it in Castlebar.
I don't think Wylie would displace him but look, you do - that's sport and opinions differ.

Considering Gearoid McKiernan makes the Ulster team (we're the 1 province who take the railway cup seriously) it's safe to say he's make the Monaghan team. And you can be sure Malachy O'Rourke would get the best out of him. Same goes for Faulkner, Mackey, Mcvitty, Martin Reilly, Moynagh, a fit Rory Dunne, and of course Givney if he was around."
Possibly Gearoid (If he wasn't man marked), Killian, Mackey and Dara. That would be it.

theDagger1986 (Cavan) - Posts: 152 - 13/07/2017 11:48:49    2016019

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Replying To fredflint:  "The might have done that at the level of cavan. When they stepped up to ulster level I don't remember any of these Gaels players stepping up. A team of county footballers who couldn't get close to winning an ulster club."
Fredflint it's only an example.
Our big players haven't stepped up against Roscommon twice, Derry or Tipperary in qualifiers that mattered and none of them are world beaters are they?
It's ok getting beaten but at least let's be able to say sure didn't they give it everything.
Can we say that about our last 3 years in the qualifiers??

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 948 - 13/07/2017 12:22:49    2016042

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Fredflint it's only an example.
Our big players haven't stepped up against Roscommon twice, Derry or Tipperary in qualifiers that mattered and none of them are world beaters are they?
It's ok getting beaten but at least let's be able to say sure didn't they give it everything.
Can we say that about our last 3 years in the qualifiers??"
I fully agree, there is lots of ability in the squad look at all the games they destroyed teams in 1st half to then implode? Mentality problems?? Fitness?? I think Cavan need to move heaven and earth to get the best players in county on the panel, e.g. Barry reilly, Kevin tierney, David givney, Conor Bradley, ado cole jack Brady, Michael argue, Damian barkey

blueman1903 (Cavan) - Posts: 705 - 13/07/2017 12:59:12    2016063

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Replying To blueman1903:  "I fully agree, there is lots of ability in the squad look at all the games they destroyed teams in 1st half to then implode? Mentality problems?? Fitness?? I think Cavan need to move heaven and earth to get the best players in county on the panel, e.g. Barry reilly, Kevin tierney, David givney, Conor Bradley, ado cole jack Brady, Michael argue, Damian barkey"
Would love to see all of those on the panel.

BUT we need some older heads in too. Players who can see out a game, control the tempo, lift those around them when the team is flat.

Now surely the gaels and kingscourt have these kind of players?? I'm not quite sure if Ramos do (they're a young team). Flanagan was 1 I mentioned from Castlerahan. Cullivan at Lavey.
Is podge Reilly worth another look for this type of role?
We need someone to give us what Paul the Gunner used to bring off the bench in the last 15/20 mins.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3587 - 13/07/2017 13:55:23    2016090

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Would love to see all of those on the panel.

BUT we need some older heads in too. Players who can see out a game, control the tempo, lift those around them when the team is flat.

Now surely the gaels and kingscourt have these kind of players?? I'm not quite sure if Ramos do (they're a young team). Flanagan was 1 I mentioned from Castlerahan. Cullivan at Lavey.
Is podge Reilly worth another look for this type of role?
We need someone to give us what Paul the Gunner used to bring off the bench in the last 15/20 mins."
Myth no 1 - cavan are a young team. We are not. That cannot be held up as an excuse anymore.

What we need is a manager that can raise the efforts, morale of the team an empower them to do the right thing on the pitch - especially when a game is put up to them.

We can wait a year and see will Mattie be that man, I'd bet my weeks wages he won't be. Genuinely hope I'm wrong.

I think naming all these players that should be got back in is a red herring. Yes it will help us for sure to have Keating, Givney etc back but I don't believe that's the main issue

fredflint (Cavan) - Posts: 1229 - 13/07/2017 14:19:58    2016102

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This forum gets more comical as the weeks go on. Problem is that may Cavan supporters are either delusional or naive and living in the past.

Time to accept it...THE PLAYERS ARE SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We dont have the players in this County, and the standard during the upcoming championship will evidence that. But, its nothing new, the proof is, we've won nothing of meaning in the last 20 years. I see lads spouting nonsense that we have better players than Monaghan and Roscommon. For heaven sake lads, we haven't even better players than Tipperary. Yes, imagine that, imagine if someone said years ago that a County like Tipperary would beat a prominent footballing County like Cavan, you would have laughed at him.

Thats the reality though, and the other reality is that 3 weeks ago Feile was held in Cavan, and not one Cavan Club progressed to the winners section of the competition, yet teams from Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, all hurling Counties, all progressed.

But again, goes back to the grass roots, which is club football. The County Board do not care about clubs, they dont care about senior club players and they certainly dont care about junior and underage players. All they care about is money in my opinion.

The GAA as we know it is long gone. The entire social aspect, the fun aspect is gone, and you know what, supporters are fed up and staying away.
Whilst there are four divisions in Gaelic Football, there are two divides, the Counties like Dublin, Kerry & Tyrone that will make money for the GAA and then there's the Counties like Cavan & Tipperary who just make up the numbers. Yet the GAA will tell you that the Super 8 was set up for the good of the game...it was set up for the good of money, and sadly folks, the Cavan County Board are so naive, that they've bought into this thinking that Cavan actually mean something to the GAA!

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 440 - 13/07/2017 14:58:26    2016122

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "This forum gets more comical as the weeks go on. Problem is that may Cavan supporters are either delusional or naive and living in the past.

Time to accept it...THE PLAYERS ARE SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We dont have the players in this County, and the standard during the upcoming championship will evidence that. But, its nothing new, the proof is, we've won nothing of meaning in the last 20 years. I see lads spouting nonsense that we have better players than Monaghan and Roscommon. For heaven sake lads, we haven't even better players than Tipperary. Yes, imagine that, imagine if someone said years ago that a County like Tipperary would beat a prominent footballing County like Cavan, you would have laughed at him.

Thats the reality though, and the other reality is that 3 weeks ago Feile was held in Cavan, and not one Cavan Club progressed to the winners section of the competition, yet teams from Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, all hurling Counties, all progressed.

But again, goes back to the grass roots, which is club football. The County Board do not care about clubs, they dont care about senior club players and they certainly dont care about junior and underage players. All they care about is money in my opinion.

The GAA as we know it is long gone. The entire social aspect, the fun aspect is gone, and you know what, supporters are fed up and staying away.
Whilst there are four divisions in Gaelic Football, there are two divides, the Counties like Dublin, Kerry & Tyrone that will make money for the GAA and then there's the Counties like Cavan & Tipperary who just make up the numbers. Yet the GAA will tell you that the Super 8 was set up for the good of the game...it was set up for the good of money, and sadly folks, the Cavan County Board are so naive, that they've bought into this thinking that Cavan actually mean something to the GAA!"
Would agree with your assessment. Much of what you say is the harsh truth.

It's abundantly clear that those tasked with the welfare of Cavan GAA are indeed sorely deluded about the true state of football in the county. Just take a look at the poor standards on display over the next few weeks in the club championship. Following this will be the inevitable beatings doled out to our clubs in the Ulster club championships.

And the cycle of losing will continue. And we'll have this conversation next year. Like we've been having since the 1970's, bar a one season wonder in 1997.

We've even had one poster claim that we have better players than Monaghan. I mean, if this is the mindset of people in Cavan towards their county team, then God bless their innocence but that is truly a baffling and deluded observation. The evidence to disprove this myth is the fact that they've beaten us 3 times in 5 years in the championship. It doesn't get any clearer. Evidence based opinions are the only ones worth listening to, or indeed acting on, and the facts for Cavan football at a county and club level are nothing but depressing.

Tinkering around the edges, playing this fella here and that fella there is avoiding the real issue. This is not a matter of personnel. It's a systemic one.

There is a malaise in Cavan football that has to be addressed and that is the insistence that we plough ahead with too many clubs which is hurting the county teams success.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 342 - 13/07/2017 19:17:40    2016235

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Fredflint it's only an example.
Our big players haven't stepped up against Roscommon twice, Derry or Tipperary in qualifiers that mattered and none of them are world beaters are they?
It's ok getting beaten but at least let's be able to say sure didn't they give it everything.
Can we say that about our last 3 years in the qualifiers??"
to be fair against Roscommon and derry we played long periods with 14 men. This year we had no excuse and we were 6 up and coasting and still contrived to lose.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5233 - 13/07/2017 22:01:53    2016284

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I feel that many are confusing having very talented players with those players being good enough when it comes to performing when the pressure is on. Why ignore that we see our highly talented players fall apart when pressure is on, we see guys mishandle the ball constantly, be unable to toe to hand without losing control of the ball, we even see them have difficulty performing the basic skills, even something as simple as picking the ball up off the ground. Call it what you like, brain freeze, panic stations, losing their heads, but being unable to handle the pressure or the expectations of the Cavan GAA public, really does mean the players are not good enough, regardless of talent.
How often do we hear the soundbite that Cavan play better as the underdog, is this not an admission that our players find it hard to cope with expectations, pressure.
The the game v Tip, players looked great the first half, everything was going well, but as soon as Tip upped it in the second half, the Cavan players fell apart, wrong decisions, skill failures, even an element of panic.
1 Ulster title in 47 years, in a county that has a fan base that thinks we have a divine right to be winning All Ireland's, let alone Ulsters, puts massive pressure on players. The fact that the actual standard of football in the county is awful does not prepare players to cope with the pressure. They have no experience of coping with pressure to call upon to get them through when the big games come round.
Constantly we give debuts to 5 or 6 new players every championship, young guys not long out of minor, many of whom have not even played Senior Club football in Cavan. Now our Senior club football is poor, so how big a step up is it for a lad to go from Junior or Intermediate club football in Cavan, to actually playing Senior County in the Ulster Championship or in the qualifiers.

Back in the time that Cavan were kingpins of Ulster football, and won our All Ireland's, we had a rule where once a player was called up to the senior county team, if he was not with a Senior club, he moved to the nearest one, this meant that the better players were playing with and against the best players in the county, raising their standard and the overall standard.
By the way the movement of players to the senior clubs was not all one way, it was not unusual for young up and coming players at the senior clubs to go to junior clubs and play with them till they were good enough to get their place on their club's senior team.
Also if a junior club who had county players move to a senior club, went on to make it to senior, their county players would return to them.

For some reason this practice was stopped, and not only that, but player transfers are totally frowned upon by many in the GAA.

eduardo66 (Cavan) - Posts: 64 - 13/07/2017 22:47:38    2016302

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "This forum gets more comical as the weeks go on. Problem is that may Cavan supporters are either delusional or naive and living in the past.

Time to accept it...THE PLAYERS ARE SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH. We dont have the players in this County, and the standard during the upcoming championship will evidence that. But, its nothing new, the proof is, we've won nothing of meaning in the last 20 years. I see lads spouting nonsense that we have better players than Monaghan and Roscommon. For heaven sake lads, we haven't even better players than Tipperary. Yes, imagine that, imagine if someone said years ago that a County like Tipperary would beat a prominent footballing County like Cavan, you would have laughed at him.

Thats the reality though, and the other reality is that 3 weeks ago Feile was held in Cavan, and not one Cavan Club progressed to the winners section of the competition, yet teams from Clare, Tipperary, Waterford, all hurling Counties, all progressed.

But again, goes back to the grass roots, which is club football. The County Board do not care about clubs, they dont care about senior club players and they certainly dont care about junior and underage players. All they care about is money in my opinion.

The GAA as we know it is long gone. The entire social aspect, the fun aspect is gone, and you know what, supporters are fed up and staying away.
Whilst there are four divisions in Gaelic Football, there are two divides, the Counties like Dublin, Kerry & Tyrone that will make money for the GAA and then there's the Counties like Cavan & Tipperary who just make up the numbers. Yet the GAA will tell you that the Super 8 was set up for the good of the game...it was set up for the good of money, and sadly folks, the Cavan County Board are so naive, that they've bought into this thinking that Cavan actually mean something to the GAA!"
you could have just stopped after your first observation. " we don't have the players. the players are not good enough".

If that's the case then, why worry ? everything else is pointless. who are you giving out to, if the issue is that we don't have the players ?.
if we don't have the players then you can't blame the manager, you can't blame the county board, you can't blame central council or sky sports or the super-8. we will just have to make do and mend and wait till some time in the future when a better crop of players emerge.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5233 - 13/07/2017 23:15:43    2016309

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I think we have the players to be more competitive than we are. Midfield, in my opinion, has been a key area contributing to losing big games. Buchanan needs to be coached and improved and I think he can be there for many years. We need another good midfielder and we need to stick with a pairing. If we become competitive there then we will be in much better shape. In addition, moving Faulkner out to CHB is a no brainer in my opinion. Too many times this year we had teams running through the middle!

Reformation (Cavan) - Posts: 356 - 14/07/2017 09:25:33    2016384

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Cavanblueman is right though.
We are miles behind the top teams like Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone and going backwards from what i've see lately. Light years behind.
I thought we had great talent coming through over the last number of years with the U.21's but we then gave them over to people to develop who simply ruined them. Would you give a young racehorse to a garage mechanic to train and get ready for a big race?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 14/07/2017 11:27:49    2016444

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