Meath Forum

Pairc Tailteann

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


I think looking at what has happened with the cost overruns in the Pairc Uí Chaoimh project, we should be looking to scale back this to 2 stands with terrace either ends.
I am shocked at the costs involved to even get it to planning stage. I think we got bad value for money so far (€580,000 for planning and tendering and the chairman claims this is €20,000 less than expected), I would love to know who came up with the figure of €600,000.
I am very worried that if we are this extravagant even before we start the development what is going to happen down the line.
We don't need 4 stands and crippling debts going forward.

madmeath (Meath) - Posts: 44 - 14/12/2018 23:52:28    2154328

Link

Replying To madmeath:  "I think looking at what has happened with the cost overruns in the Pairc Uí Chaoimh project, we should be looking to scale back this to 2 stands with terrace either ends.
I am shocked at the costs involved to even get it to planning stage. I think we got bad value for money so far (€580,000 for planning and tendering and the chairman claims this is €20,000 less than expected), I would love to know who came up with the figure of €600,000.
I am very worried that if we are this extravagant even before we start the development what is going to happen down the line.
We don't need 4 stands and crippling debts going forward."
Planning development etc are always going to fluctuate, building materials, Labour etc will go up and down. I'm happy with the proposed development . Tbh building terraces etc is not that much less money than building a stand. So the idea that we will save a fortune on just building two seated areas is a folly . There is a huge difference between puc and pt, 1 was built with rwc in mind and was a extensive development within a short time scale, whereas pt is over a longer duration in a phased development. No need to worry it won't break the bank. Also we really can't continue to ask players management but above all patrons to attend what has become not only a not fit for purpose stadium but dangerous with it too. We must act and quickly, or else it will be closed down. And with all the history associated with it that would be a shame.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17267 - 15/12/2018 09:50:11    2154338

Link

Pairs Ui Chaoimh is a real wake up call. We were extremely extravagant with our planning budget so is there any reason to believe that we will fare any better with the development phase? I don't think so especially as at this stage (5/6 months before the wrecking ball moves in) we don't know where we are starting or what we are going to do. Ballymagash comes to mind. This 'build it sh.. and they will come' is of yesteryear and calling a county committee to inform delegates as decisions are made is the hallmark of uncertainty and shows a clear lack of vision. There is something not right about this. Do they think we are fools, finance has to be raised and don't try and tell us that any bank will entertain this 'back of the cigarette box' project management, somebody knows what is to take place and it is time for an honest broker to emerge.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 787 - 15/12/2018 11:25:57    2154343

Link

Replying To MillerX:  "Pairs Ui Chaoimh is a real wake up call. We were extremely extravagant with our planning budget so is there any reason to believe that we will fare any better with the development phase? I don't think so especially as at this stage (5/6 months before the wrecking ball moves in) we don't know where we are starting or what we are going to do. Ballymagash comes to mind. This 'build it sh.. and they will come' is of yesteryear and calling a county committee to inform delegates as decisions are made is the hallmark of uncertainty and shows a clear lack of vision. There is something not right about this. Do they think we are fools, finance has to be raised and don't try and tell us that any bank will entertain this 'back of the cigarette box' project management, somebody knows what is to take place and it is time for an honest broker to emerge."
One word. Bullsh1t.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17267 - 15/12/2018 13:00:32    2154348

Link

There is no comparison with PUC and PT, the old PUC was already an extensive stadium that had an original capacity of 50'000 when built. When demolition began serious issues were discovered with the concrete strengtht of structures that had been planned to stay in place and be refurbished, this is certainly some of the reason for the overruns which do need explaining and I have no doubt will be seeing as public money was involved. The plan for PT is in my view excellent and has been fully supported by the clubs of the county who gave permission for the development to proceed, an awful lot more would probably be known if the Government weren't waiting until April to announce funding, that funding will determine whether a full stand or 2/3 of a stand will be built first, that will also play into the decision of what side of the ground development will begin so I don't think there is any attempt of smoke and daggers here, whenthe contractor is appointed and funding is known then all will be much clearer, until then all we should do is support the development and buy and encourage the sale of the house draw tickets and make the burden as less as possible.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3601 - 15/12/2018 13:33:43    2154350

Link

Unfortunately the issues raised are of concern even though some may be happy to bury their head in the sand. The Cork development which went over budget by over 50% from initial may not help our grant situation from central funds even though it should not effect any Provincial contribution. Of course one could argue that no two developments are the same, however if the development is not properly costed / managed efficiently then overruns can spiral. As a country we do have a history of mis-managing large developments when bureaucracy steps in (sometimes called H & S) and I would not like to be depending on the expertise in CP . Country Broadband is a good example.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2224 - 15/12/2018 16:32:30    2154360

Link

Replying To royaldunne:  "One word. Bullsh1t."
Just wait and see, sorting out Cork is bound to have a knock on effect on ALL other projects that were intended to be financed from Croke Park. And not knowing what exactly you intend doing in 5 months time does not help.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 787 - 15/12/2018 16:44:32    2154361

Link

Royal Dunne. You appear to know something the rest of us don't. You are happy with the way the planning and tendering process has gone. Nobody knows how it has gone as we have not seen the final plans yet. As for the tendering process. How can anybody tended for something if the CB don't know what they're building. Or when it's starting. We all know building costs are rocketing so the € 16 million is just a figure pulled out of the air. There are far more questions than answers at the moment that's the problem. I have no faith in the CB to deliver anything at the moment. The house draw is a fiasco. Now the CB are blaming the club's for not selling enough tickets. So already they are washing their hands of it.

latouche25 (Meath) - Posts: 328 - 15/12/2018 19:19:03    2154368

Link

Replying To latouche25:  "Royal Dunne. You appear to know something the rest of us don't. You are happy with the way the planning and tendering process has gone. Nobody knows how it has gone as we have not seen the final plans yet. As for the tendering process. How can anybody tended for something if the CB don't know what they're building. Or when it's starting. We all know building costs are rocketing so the € 16 million is just a figure pulled out of the air. There are far more questions than answers at the moment that's the problem. I have no faith in the CB to deliver anything at the moment. The house draw is a fiasco. Now the CB are blaming the club's for not selling enough tickets. So already they are washing their hands of it."
I agree, the details coming out from the CB have been far from satisfactory.

Barney123 (Meath) - Posts: 676 - 15/12/2018 19:43:44    2154371

Link

Replying To latouche25:  "Royal Dunne. You appear to know something the rest of us don't. You are happy with the way the planning and tendering process has gone. Nobody knows how it has gone as we have not seen the final plans yet. As for the tendering process. How can anybody tended for something if the CB don't know what they're building. Or when it's starting. We all know building costs are rocketing so the € 16 million is just a figure pulled out of the air. There are far more questions than answers at the moment that's the problem. I have no faith in the CB to deliver anything at the moment. The house draw is a fiasco. Now the CB are blaming the club's for not selling enough tickets. So already they are washing their hands of it."
That's factually incorrect, the County Board admitted there wasn't enough run in time from the launch to the first draw and it put too much pressure on some clubs, the decision to postpone the first draw was in response to that and sales have been very good since, particularly online sales, do t see how the word "fiasco" can be used to describe the draw. I would agree that more information could be forthcoming but at the end of the day we are now in the verge of work starting, something that seemed a long long way off a few short years ago, a lot has been done in recent times and I was glad to see time allowed to plan the project right, a piecemeal disjointed redevelopment would have been no benefit and hard to achieve funding for.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3601 - 15/12/2018 22:05:02    2154377

Link

Replying To Richieq:  "That's factually incorrect, the County Board admitted there wasn't enough run in time from the launch to the first draw and it put too much pressure on some clubs, the decision to postpone the first draw was in response to that and sales have been very good since, particularly online sales, do t see how the word "fiasco" can be used to describe the draw. I would agree that more information could be forthcoming but at the end of the day we are now in the verge of work starting, something that seemed a long long way off a few short years ago, a lot has been done in recent times and I was glad to see time allowed to plan the project right, a piecemeal disjointed redevelopment would have been no benefit and hard to achieve funding for."
Got there before me. Well said.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17267 - 16/12/2018 00:36:42    2154388

Link

You obviously believe everything the CB say. What are the figures from online sales. Nobody knows. Just a line from the CB. What I do know is nobody spends money in the first quarter of the year so where are pur sales going to be in April. Of course it's the club's fault or so the CB will say. This 3 house draw was not a club idea but a CB idea.We still have no answer to how they lost €14k on a fund raiser to London. They were in a massive hole on the trip to New York until one man wrote a very large cheque. This is why there is deep mistrust of the CB.

latouche25 (Meath) - Posts: 328 - 16/12/2018 19:16:29    2154424

Link

Replying To latouche25:  "You obviously believe everything the CB say. What are the figures from online sales. Nobody knows. Just a line from the CB. What I do know is nobody spends money in the first quarter of the year so where are pur sales going to be in April. Of course it's the club's fault or so the CB will say. This 3 house draw was not a club idea but a CB idea.We still have no answer to how they lost €14k on a fund raiser to London. They were in a massive hole on the trip to New York until one man wrote a very large cheque. This is why there is deep mistrust of the CB."
Yeah, I didn't think the explanation about the London trip was good enough. Surely a detailed explanation was needed on that.

Barney123 (Meath) - Posts: 676 - 16/12/2018 19:38:29    2154428

Link

Replying To latouche25:  "You obviously believe everything the CB say. What are the figures from online sales. Nobody knows. Just a line from the CB. What I do know is nobody spends money in the first quarter of the year so where are pur sales going to be in April. Of course it's the club's fault or so the CB will say. This 3 house draw was not a club idea but a CB idea.We still have no answer to how they lost €14k on a fund raiser to London. They were in a massive hole on the trip to New York until one man wrote a very large cheque. This is why there is deep mistrust of the CB."
Mistrust?? They why was the chairman re-elected on a landslide, why did everyone else get re-elected? Many officers were unopposed at convention!! Then again this has happened before, do the griping outside of the meeting room. It seems no matter what sort of positive steps are attempted in the county we have to put a negative spin on it, we are not Cork, Pairc Tailteann is not Pairc Ui Chaoimh and we are not developing corporate facilities or a 45'000 capacity stadium, we aren't going to meet problems with demolishing structures we hadn't planned to demolish as we aren't saving any part of PT and we don't have a Frank Murphy so reacting to the PUC overspend in this way is somewhat silly in my opinion

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3601 - 16/12/2018 20:18:11    2154433

Link

How can you loose €14k when you are trying to raise money ????
Must have been some junket for the lads ?

gardentree (Meath) - Posts: 194 - 17/12/2018 13:45:27    2154504

Link

Replying To gardentree:  "How can you loose €14k when you are trying to raise money ????
Must have been some junket for the lads ?"
That does deserve a more detailed response, it's not as if we have €14'000's to throw about

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3601 - 17/12/2018 14:13:26    2154509

Link

Maybe you didn't notice but the stand is covered in aspestus. How much do you think that will cost to remove. Do you know € 1 million €2 million. Nobody knows. As for how much has been spent so far. The first time anyone heard of €900k was at the convention last week.

latouche25 (Meath) - Posts: 328 - 17/12/2018 14:32:36    2154512

Link

Replying To latouche25:  "Maybe you didn't notice but the stand is covered in aspestus. How much do you think that will cost to remove. Do you know € 1 million €2 million. Nobody knows. As for how much has been spent so far. The first time anyone heard of €900k was at the convention last week."
The asbestos sheets on the stand in Navan are not hazardous in their present condition. The dangerous asbestos is the material that was previously used as insulation which was a loose fibrous material. The sheets on the stand in Pairc Tailtean are made of asbestos cement and are stable. However it is dangerous to start chopping then up with an angle grinder or to drop them from the top of the stand on to a hard surface when some asbestos fibres could be released. Once taken down carefully there is a cost involved in safe disposal. Can't see it amounting to millions though.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 787 - 17/12/2018 16:27:33    2154529

Link

Replying To MillerX:  "The asbestos sheets on the stand in Navan are not hazardous in their present condition. The dangerous asbestos is the material that was previously used as insulation which was a loose fibrous material. The sheets on the stand in Pairc Tailtean are made of asbestos cement and are stable. However it is dangerous to start chopping then up with an angle grinder or to drop them from the top of the stand on to a hard surface when some asbestos fibres could be released. Once taken down carefully there is a cost involved in safe disposal. Can't see it amounting to millions though."
I actually have a relation who works in this business and has intentions of tendering for this particular aspect in pt. I asked him roughly how much. I'm obviously not gonna say what he said on a public forum but I'll tell you this it's not millions. Now it's not cheep as this can only be done by a few reputable (of which he is one) contractors in this country , it is then shipped to Scotland/Germany for safe disposal.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17267 - 17/12/2018 22:06:52    2154560

Link

Replying To royaldunne:  "I actually have a relation who works in this business and has intentions of tendering for this particular aspect in pt. I asked him roughly how much. I'm obviously not gonna say what he said on a public forum but I'll tell you this it's not millions. Now it's not cheep as this can only be done by a few reputable (of which he is one) contractors in this country , it is then shipped to Scotland/Germany for safe disposal."
I remember working beside Croke Park in '99 when the old Hogan was being taken down, a hell of a lot more asbestos sheets on that roof but it was taken down sheet by sheet and wrapped in plastic in bundles of 25 sheets and shipped to Dublin Port to be buried in the polders in Holland, roof was stripped in less than a fortnight, and a well connected farmer in Limerick bought the a-frame steel supports for a fine array of sheds on his lands!! Removing the asbestos sheets in Navan would be done in days and whilst specialist companies are needed as well as inspectors on site it certainly would not come near a 7 figure sum to dispose of a roof of that size, a pity mind you they didn't replace the entire roof when the gable ends were replaced in the 90's and they could just raze through it when the time comes.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3601 - 18/12/2018 00:18:49    2154573

Link