National Forum

Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "The issue with that is from my original idea on this is that winning the province guaranteed you a seeding in the group of 6, and being in the final guaranteed you another seeding.
You'd need to use the previous years standing, not an armageddon given there are not a massive amount of games. In fact, if you were going badly in the round robin you could argue that you go all out to win Munster/Leinster to get a seed for the following year but then you could counter argue that results in dead rubber games possibly?
No perfect solution but something has to be better to promote the game and level the playing field."
Your solution is very good to be honest.

Below the top level tiers of 8, 8 and 7 would work too.

In football a solution of Provincials feeding into a 2 groups of 8 championship makes a lot of sense to me also.

It can work with the current calendar but both could also work with a calendar where club and county shared the summer more.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 24/05/2023 10:19:18    2481160

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Your solution is very good to be honest.

Below the top level tiers of 8, 8 and 7 would work too.

In football a solution of Provincials feeding into a 2 groups of 8 championship makes a lot of sense to me also.

It can work with the current calendar but both could also work with a calendar where club and county shared the summer more."
In hurling: 12, 8, 5, 5 and 5.
Football. Anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the league. The All-Ireland football championship would suit 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. The Tailteann being 2 groups of 6.
The league would have to change a bit to accommodate more championship. Again, anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the National Football League.
Division 1 - 2 groups of 6. Group winners into final. 6th placed teams relegated. 5th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 2 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final. 5th placed teams relegated. 4th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 3 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8050 - 24/05/2023 11:02:23    2481176

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Replying To legendzxix:  "In hurling: 12, 8, 5, 5 and 5.
Football. Anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the league. The All-Ireland football championship would suit 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. The Tailteann being 2 groups of 6.
The league would have to change a bit to accommodate more championship. Again, anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the National Football League.
Division 1 - 2 groups of 6. Group winners into final. 6th placed teams relegated. 5th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 2 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final. 5th placed teams relegated. 4th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 3 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final."
Think you're very wrong on this.

Not to derail a hurling thread but 4 groups of 5 is adding a lot of games that aren't going to really be cared about.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 24/05/2023 12:32:26    2481210

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By going 2 groups of 8 you are adding better games for all participants.

Championship qualification should be determined by championship performance.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 24/05/2023 12:33:58    2481211

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Replying To Whammo86:  "By going 2 groups of 8 you are adding better games for all participants.

Championship qualification should be determined by championship performance."
Getting back to hurling. The groups of 5 or 6 provides at least 2 home games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8050 - 24/05/2023 12:41:46    2481213

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Getting back to hurling. The groups of 5 or 6 provides at least 2 home games."
Yeah hurling should be 2 groups of 6 with the groups not being provincial based. I'd say I posted something to that effect years ago.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 24/05/2023 13:37:23    2481232

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Replying To legendzxix:  "In hurling: 12, 8, 5, 5 and 5.
Football. Anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the league. The All-Ireland football championship would suit 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. The Tailteann being 2 groups of 6.
The league would have to change a bit to accommodate more championship. Again, anyone would be reluctant to tamper with the National Football League.
Division 1 - 2 groups of 6. Group winners into final. 6th placed teams relegated. 5th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 2 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final. 5th placed teams relegated. 4th placed teams in relegation final.
Division 3 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and in Division 2 final. 2nd placed teams in promotion final."
I don't know, 5 tiers seems like overkill in hurling. 5 teams in the 3 bottom tiers feels too little to me.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 24/05/2023 17:30:51    2481345

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I think I'd have something like the following:

Bring back Division 1A for teams #1 through #6 and then bring back Division 1B for teams #7 through #12. 6th in 1A gets relegated and 1st in 1B gets promoted. The Semi-Finals involve the Top 3 from 1A and 1st from 1B.

Run the provincial championships as a knock-out, with 5 teams in Munster and 7 teams in Leinster.

Then have two groups of 6 as follows:

Group A

Munster Champions
Leinster Runners-Up
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

Group B

Leinster Champions
Munster Runners-Up
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

However, here comes the twist. A win would be worth 4 points and a draw would be worth 2 points. Why? Because I think the provincial champions should get a bonus of 6 points (Essentially 1.5 wins) and the provincial runners-up should get a bonus of 3 points (Essentially 0.75 wins). This should incentivise doing well in the provincial championships.

Every team plays two home games, two away games, and one neutral game. We could do like in the Super League in the UK and have a Croke Park round where six games are played at Croker across a weekend, maybe two triple-headers. Dublin would have to play their home games in Parnell Park.

6th from Group A plays 6th from Group B in a relegation playoff.

5th from both Group A and Group B are done for the year.

I'm going to borrow a bit from how they run the AFL and NRL playoffs in Australia next...

1st in A is at home to 2nd in B and 1st in B is at home to 2nd in A; the winners advance straight to the SFs, the losers go to the QFs.

3rd in A is at home to 4th in B and 3rd in B is at home to 4th in A; the winners advance to the QFs, the losers are done for the year.

The you have the two QFs, the two SFs, and the Final.

Think I'd probably end up scrapping the Walsh Cup and the Munster SHL, could then start the NHL in mid-January.

ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 314 - 24/05/2023 18:27:33    2481358

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Replying To ElGranSenor:  "I think I'd have something like the following:

Bring back Division 1A for teams #1 through #6 and then bring back Division 1B for teams #7 through #12. 6th in 1A gets relegated and 1st in 1B gets promoted. The Semi-Finals involve the Top 3 from 1A and 1st from 1B.

Run the provincial championships as a knock-out, with 5 teams in Munster and 7 teams in Leinster.

Then have two groups of 6 as follows:

Group A

Munster Champions
Leinster Runners-Up
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

Group B

Leinster Champions
Munster Runners-Up
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

However, here comes the twist. A win would be worth 4 points and a draw would be worth 2 points. Why? Because I think the provincial champions should get a bonus of 6 points (Essentially 1.5 wins) and the provincial runners-up should get a bonus of 3 points (Essentially 0.75 wins). This should incentivise doing well in the provincial championships.

Every team plays two home games, two away games, and one neutral game. We could do like in the Super League in the UK and have a Croke Park round where six games are played at Croker across a weekend, maybe two triple-headers. Dublin would have to play their home games in Parnell Park.

6th from Group A plays 6th from Group B in a relegation playoff.

5th from both Group A and Group B are done for the year.

I'm going to borrow a bit from how they run the AFL and NRL playoffs in Australia next...

1st in A is at home to 2nd in B and 1st in B is at home to 2nd in A; the winners advance straight to the SFs, the losers go to the QFs.

3rd in A is at home to 4th in B and 3rd in B is at home to 4th in A; the winners advance to the QFs, the losers are done for the year.

The you have the two QFs, the two SFs, and the Final.

Think I'd probably end up scrapping the Walsh Cup and the Munster SHL, could then start the NHL in mid-January."
League competition: 5 games
League S/F & Final: 2 games
Provincial competition: 3 games
Championship (League format): 5 games
Q/F, S/F, Final: 3 games:
Total: 18 games.

Essentially two league+knockout competitions, with one valued more than the other.

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 07/06/2023 16:52:05    2484800

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Replying To Donncha77:  "
Replying To ElGranSenor:  "I think I'd have something like the following:

Bring back Division 1A for teams #1 through #6 and then bring back Division 1B for teams #7 through #12. 6th in 1A gets relegated and 1st in 1B gets promoted. The Semi-Finals involve the Top 3 from 1A and 1st from 1B.

Run the provincial championships as a knock-out, with 5 teams in Munster and 7 teams in Leinster.

Then have two groups of 6 as follows:

Group A

Munster Champions
Leinster Runners-Up
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

Group B

Leinster Champions
Munster Runners-Up
Leinster Semi-Finalist
Munster Semi-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist
Leinster Quarter-Finalist

However, here comes the twist. A win would be worth 4 points and a draw would be worth 2 points. Why? Because I think the provincial champions should get a bonus of 6 points (Essentially 1.5 wins) and the provincial runners-up should get a bonus of 3 points (Essentially 0.75 wins). This should incentivise doing well in the provincial championships.

Every team plays two home games, two away games, and one neutral game. We could do like in the Super League in the UK and have a Croke Park round where six games are played at Croker across a weekend, maybe two triple-headers. Dublin would have to play their home games in Parnell Park.

6th from Group A plays 6th from Group B in a relegation playoff.

5th from both Group A and Group B are done for the year.

I'm going to borrow a bit from how they run the AFL and NRL playoffs in Australia next...

1st in A is at home to 2nd in B and 1st in B is at home to 2nd in A; the winners advance straight to the SFs, the losers go to the QFs.

3rd in A is at home to 4th in B and 3rd in B is at home to 4th in A; the winners advance to the QFs, the losers are done for the year.

The you have the two QFs, the two SFs, and the Final.

Think I'd probably end up scrapping the Walsh Cup and the Munster SHL, could then start the NHL in mid-January."
League competition: 5 games
League S/F & Final: 2 games
Provincial competition: 3 games
Championship (League format): 5 games
Q/F, S/F, Final: 3 games:
Total: 18 games.

Essentially two league+knockout competitions, with one valued more than the other."
I wonder could you combine the Provincials and All Ireland groups.

At the start of the championship half of each Province are in one 6 team group, half are in the other.

Every team plays the teams in their group with some of the match ups Provincial championship fixtures.

After the groups we'll have the Provincial finalists.

Every team plays 3 further fixtures against teams from the other group and making sure that the Provincial finals are played as part of those.

You've an 8 game schedule for all teams and they are ranked on one table.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4284 - 08/06/2023 12:24:56    2484912

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Carlow finished 4th in Division 2A and are McDonagh Cup winners. They utilised the league well for what they required.
Hurling has a good balance of 5 league games and 4 or 5 championship games. Kerry finished on the 13th of May but can have no complaints after 5 league games and 5 championship games. The players get back to playing with their clubs. The Kerry hurling final will probably be early in August.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8050 - 08/06/2023 20:04:06    2485023

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