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Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Kildare and Offaly are promoted to Division 1B and Laois win the McDonagh, Division 1B 2024 would have two McDonagh counties. That would be fair enough in that scenario."
Would a similar 6-div NFL/AIC - with 5,6,5 & 5,6,5 teams - work for football? - more trophies - 10 matches near own level - 5 team divisions play round robins and the 'neighbouring 6 teams' - 1 up/1 down?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2767 - 05/05/2023 18:37:13    2475984

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Jamie Wall has an interesting suggestion. See https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/03/16/ciaran-murphy-what-can-we-do-with-the-league-to-make-it-matter-again/

Two 'conferences' of seven teams (or perhaps six) each drawn up from scratch each year, with teams from both provinces evenly divided to ensure that each conference remains even and competitive, and to ensure that counties keep playing as many different teams as possible.

Teams (probable): Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Clare, Tipperary, Kerry, Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Dublin, Galway, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly.

Teams play each other home and away, starting in March. The top three teams in each group would qualify for the All-Ireland championship. The winners of the two conferences would qualify for the All-Ireland semi-finals, and the teams placed second and third would play All-Ireland quarter-finals. The all-Ireland final would be in late July.

The provincial championships are retained but quite separate, running in parallel the way the FA Cup runs throughout the Premier League season. The quarter-finals of the provincial championships would be played on the May bank holiday weekend, the semi-finals on the June bank holiday weekend, and the provincial finals at the start of July between the All-Ireland quarter- and semi-finals.

The bottom teams in each conference would play a relegation playoff, and one team would be promoted.

The rationale for 7 rather than 6 teams in each conference is to have sufficient competitive matches at the bottom end of each conference (with six teams, one team gets a whipping by all the others).

There would be three main trophies to compete for: Liam McCarthy Cup, Bob O'Keefe Cup (Leinster championship), and Munster Cup (i.e. there would be no League trophy), though perhaps the outright winner of each conference might be awarded a trophy.

The Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard, and Lory Meagher competitions (currently 6 teams in each) would be restructured into 3 competitions (7 teams in each). They'd also play home and away (March-July) and each competition would have a league-championship format. One team would be promoted and relegated each year.

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 12/05/2023 08:01:34    2477761

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Replying To Donncha77:  "Jamie Wall has an interesting suggestion. See https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/03/16/ciaran-murphy-what-can-we-do-with-the-league-to-make-it-matter-again/

Two 'conferences' of seven teams (or perhaps six) each drawn up from scratch each year, with teams from both provinces evenly divided to ensure that each conference remains even and competitive, and to ensure that counties keep playing as many different teams as possible.

Teams (probable): Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Clare, Tipperary, Kerry, Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Dublin, Galway, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly.

Teams play each other home and away, starting in March. The top three teams in each group would qualify for the All-Ireland championship. The winners of the two conferences would qualify for the All-Ireland semi-finals, and the teams placed second and third would play All-Ireland quarter-finals. The all-Ireland final would be in late July.

The provincial championships are retained but quite separate, running in parallel the way the FA Cup runs throughout the Premier League season. The quarter-finals of the provincial championships would be played on the May bank holiday weekend, the semi-finals on the June bank holiday weekend, and the provincial finals at the start of July between the All-Ireland quarter- and semi-finals.

The bottom teams in each conference would play a relegation playoff, and one team would be promoted.

The rationale for 7 rather than 6 teams in each conference is to have sufficient competitive matches at the bottom end of each conference (with six teams, one team gets a whipping by all the others).

There would be three main trophies to compete for: Liam McCarthy Cup, Bob O'Keefe Cup (Leinster championship), and Munster Cup (i.e. there would be no League trophy), though perhaps the outright winner of each conference might be awarded a trophy.

The Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard, and Lory Meagher competitions (currently 6 teams in each) would be restructured into 3 competitions (7 teams in each). They'd also play home and away (March-July) and each competition would have a league-championship format. One team would be promoted and relegated each year."
It makes a lot of sense to me, although home and away does seem like a lot of games to me, particularly with provincials also.

Reducing the lower tiers makes sense.

I think 12 teams with 8,8 and 7 below that would be better.

The 12 teams would play each other once. Top 6 to playoffs and it also deals with the whipping issues as the developing 3 teams get 2 fixtures against one another also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 12/05/2023 10:08:50    2477785

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It makes a lot of sense to me, although home and away does seem like a lot of games to me, particularly with provincials also.

Reducing the lower tiers makes sense.

I think 12 teams with 8,8 and 7 below that would be better.

The 12 teams would play each other once. Top 6 to playoffs and it also deals with the whipping issues as the developing 3 teams get 2 fixtures against one another also."
With 7 teams, playing home and away, the maximum number of games would be 18 and the minimum is 13:
Home and away (6x2): 12 games
All-Ireland quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games
Provincial quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

Currently, the maximum number of games is 15 and the minimum is 9.
League: 5 games
League semi-final and final: 2 games
Provincial round-robin: 4 games
Provincial final: 1 game
All-Ireland series Quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

That's not including the Walsh Cup and Munster League (both starting in early January; minimum 2, max 3 games), which could/should be abandoned. With 7 teams, the better teams could use their games with the weaker teams to experiment and rest players. My sense is that players wouldn't complain if they had to play 18 games between March and July (c. 22 weeks). Alternatively, the games could start in mid or early February (the leagues started this year on 4 February) which would give 13-18 games over 26 weeks.

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 12/05/2023 12:31:34    2477839

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Replying To Donncha77:  "With 7 teams, playing home and away, the maximum number of games would be 18 and the minimum is 13:
Home and away (6x2): 12 games
All-Ireland quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games
Provincial quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

Currently, the maximum number of games is 15 and the minimum is 9.
League: 5 games
League semi-final and final: 2 games
Provincial round-robin: 4 games
Provincial final: 1 game
All-Ireland series Quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

That's not including the Walsh Cup and Munster League (both starting in early January; minimum 2, max 3 games), which could/should be abandoned. With 7 teams, the better teams could use their games with the weaker teams to experiment and rest players. My sense is that players wouldn't complain if they had to play 18 games between March and July (c. 22 weeks). Alternatively, the games could start in mid or early February (the leagues started this year on 4 February) which would give 13-18 games over 26 weeks."
Your numbers are incorrect.

Offaly player 7 league games. 5 round robin, Semi and final.
They will have 6 Joe McDonagh games. 5 round robin and final.
Then up to 4 All Ireland series games.

So that's 17.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 12/05/2023 12:48:01    2477851

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The 10-16th place teams need to be playing the top 10 in either league or championship.

Personally I'd prefer if the league went back to divisions of 8. 2 up, 2 down. (1A is way stronger than 1B at the moment)

4 groups of 4 for the Championship. Seed them by league position. That brings the minimum number of games up to 10 and gives lower teams a chance to grow. 3rd and 4th seeds get 2 home games. 1st and 2nd one game.

The league in football is great but in hurling it's a bit of a non event.

This would make the bottom of div 1 and top of div 2 cuthroat to try get the second seeding.

People might complain about hammerings but having Tipp, Limerick, Galway, Kilkenny, Cork playing a lower team once or twice a year won't kill them. Plus their average league opponents will have improved.

So from this year seeds would be:
1st: Limerick, Cork, Tipp, Kilkenny
2nd: Galway, Clare, Waterford, Dublin
3rd: Wexford, Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly
4th: Laois, Kildare, Carlow, Kerry

Key is the following year. Two of those top 8 seeds would get relegated to div 2 and drop to 3rd seeds.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 12/05/2023 13:04:08    2477853

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Replying To Donncha77:  "With 7 teams, playing home and away, the maximum number of games would be 18 and the minimum is 13:
Home and away (6x2): 12 games
All-Ireland quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games
Provincial quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

Currently, the maximum number of games is 15 and the minimum is 9.
League: 5 games
League semi-final and final: 2 games
Provincial round-robin: 4 games
Provincial final: 1 game
All-Ireland series Quarter-final, semi-final, final: 3 games

That's not including the Walsh Cup and Munster League (both starting in early January; minimum 2, max 3 games), which could/should be abandoned. With 7 teams, the better teams could use their games with the weaker teams to experiment and rest players. My sense is that players wouldn't complain if they had to play 18 games between March and July (c. 22 weeks). Alternatively, the games could start in mid or early February (the leagues started this year on 4 February) which would give 13-18 games over 26 weeks."
I mean you have to bear in mind the intensity of games though.

The NHL is up to 7 games that are a lot less intense than Championship.

They even changed the league format to have less intensity.

I think double round robins are a bad idea in our games as it means that there can be more gaps in places and more chance of teams having their positions determined with a couple of rounds to go.

8 intense championship games with 3 easier fixtures would seem fine to me.

You don't want too many developing teams in it either. You want teams to earn their place.

3 v 5 doesn't seem like a big difference but it probably is given you pooling those teams from 6 or 7 challengers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 12/05/2023 13:15:31    2477858

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Replying To skirge7:  "Your numbers are incorrect.

Offaly player 7 league games. 5 round robin, Semi and final.
They will have 6 Joe McDonagh games. 5 round robin and final.
Then up to 4 All Ireland series games.

So that's 17."
Yes, a team that wins the Joe McDonagh and then proceeds to win the All-Ireland would have 17 games. I've taken the more likely scenario of that not happening.

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 14/05/2023 12:09:15    2478269

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Replying To skirge7:  "The 10-16th place teams need to be playing the top 10 in either league or championship.

Personally I'd prefer if the league went back to divisions of 8. 2 up, 2 down. (1A is way stronger than 1B at the moment)

4 groups of 4 for the Championship. Seed them by league position. That brings the minimum number of games up to 10 and gives lower teams a chance to grow. 3rd and 4th seeds get 2 home games. 1st and 2nd one game.

The league in football is great but in hurling it's a bit of a non event.

This would make the bottom of div 1 and top of div 2 cuthroat to try get the second seeding.

People might complain about hammerings but having Tipp, Limerick, Galway, Kilkenny, Cork playing a lower team once or twice a year won't kill them. Plus their average league opponents will have improved.

So from this year seeds would be:
1st: Limerick, Cork, Tipp, Kilkenny
2nd: Galway, Clare, Waterford, Dublin
3rd: Wexford, Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly
4th: Laois, Kildare, Carlow, Kerry

Key is the following year. Two of those top 8 seeds would get relegated to div 2 and drop to 3rd seeds."
Can you flesh this out a bit? In the championship groups (of 4) will they play one another home and away or just round-robin? Who gets into the knock-out element and what's its structure? What would be the schedule and window for league and championship? What would happen to the Provincials? How many games would the teams play (max and min)?

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 14/05/2023 12:18:30    2478279

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I mean you have to bear in mind the intensity of games though.

The NHL is up to 7 games that are a lot less intense than Championship.

They even changed the league format to have less intensity.

I think double round robins are a bad idea in our games as it means that there can be more gaps in places and more chance of teams having their positions determined with a couple of rounds to go.

8 intense championship games with 3 easier fixtures would seem fine to me.

You don't want too many developing teams in it either. You want teams to earn their place.

3 v 5 doesn't seem like a big difference but it probably is given you pooling those teams from 6 or 7 challengers."
Fair points, but with home and away the stronger teams can rest players and give their panel game-time when they're playing the weaker teams. In turn, the weaker teams will target games they have to win, but they should improve and learn by being in the mix, even if they get relegated (and only one relegation per year gives them a good chance to stay in the top tier). The premiership has 30 teams and most of these will end up mid-table, but that doesn't mean they lose interest during the season.

Donncha77 (Wexford) - Posts: 6 - 14/05/2023 12:27:05    2478285

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Its hard to envisage a championship where teams need to be at full tilt from March onwards. Pitches in March are not good enough for championship hurling in my opinion.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1238 - 14/05/2023 13:09:18    2478301

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Its hard to envisage a championship where teams need to be at full tilt from March onwards. Pitches in March are not good enough for championship hurling in my opinion."
It's a good point.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 14/05/2023 14:08:47    2478322

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The league needs to revert to six teams on metric. In Division 1A, 2nd at home to 3rd in a semi-final. 1st in Division 1A v semi-final winner in the final.
In all other divisions, 1st at home to 2nd in the final. Division runners-up at home to 5th in the division above in a relegation/promotion play-off.
The McDonagh, Ring, Rackard and Meagher should have semi-finals for 2nd at home to 3rd.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8111 - 14/05/2023 14:51:13    2478332

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Posted this on the 'All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship 2023' thread a few weeks back. Didn't know this thread existed, so re-posting here:

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With regards to the number of meaningless games, would it be possible to combine the four main competitions (NHL, Munster, Leinster, AI) into one? There are 11 teams playing in the MacCarthy Cup with the top 2 from the Joe McDonagh Cup meeting MacCarthy cup teams in qualifiers.

- 11 MacCarthy Cup teams all play in one group in a league format
- All Munster clashes played under the auspices of Munster GAA, all Leinster, Leinster GAA
- The team that finishes top of the group are declared NHL champions and receive an all Ireland semi final place
- the two top Munster sides in the table play in the Munster Final, winners receive an all Ireland semi final place
- the two top Leinster sides in the table play in the Leinster Final, winners receive an all Ireland semi final place
- If a team qualifies via two routes (NHL winners + Munster Champions) the next highest placed team receives the other all Ireland semi final place
- Joe McDonagh Cup 1+2 teams play the next highest placed McCarthy cup sides, winners of these games play each other for the last semi final place
- Tie breakers for teams finishing level on points: (i) head to head meeting (ii) panel disciplinary record
- Bottom side relegated to the Joe McDonagh cup every year & the McDonagh cup champions promoted
- The most number of games a MacCarthy Cup team would play is 13 (At present the max is 16 for Leinster sides, 15 for Munster)
- Competition to run from February - July with all teams having 2 weeks between games

I think there are a few advantages in this, Thoughts?

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 22/05/2023 11:34:12    2480415

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Replying To slayer:  "Posted this on the 'All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship 2023' thread a few weeks back. Didn't know this thread existed, so re-posting here:

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With regards to the number of meaningless games, would it be possible to combine the four main competitions (NHL, Munster, Leinster, AI) into one? There are 11 teams playing in the MacCarthy Cup with the top 2 from the Joe McDonagh Cup meeting MacCarthy cup teams in qualifiers.

- 11 MacCarthy Cup teams all play in one group in a league format
- All Munster clashes played under the auspices of Munster GAA, all Leinster, Leinster GAA
- The team that finishes top of the group are declared NHL champions and receive an all Ireland semi final place
- the two top Munster sides in the table play in the Munster Final, winners receive an all Ireland semi final place
- the two top Leinster sides in the table play in the Leinster Final, winners receive an all Ireland semi final place
- If a team qualifies via two routes (NHL winners + Munster Champions) the next highest placed team receives the other all Ireland semi final place
- Joe McDonagh Cup 1+2 teams play the next highest placed McCarthy cup sides, winners of these games play each other for the last semi final place
- Tie breakers for teams finishing level on points: (i) head to head meeting (ii) panel disciplinary record
- Bottom side relegated to the Joe McDonagh cup every year & the McDonagh cup champions promoted
- The most number of games a MacCarthy Cup team would play is 13 (At present the max is 16 for Leinster sides, 15 for Munster)
- Competition to run from February - July with all teams having 2 weeks between games

I think there are a few advantages in this, Thoughts?
"
Think there could be issues if one province performed a lot worse in the league phase and their final winner got in at the expense of a better performing team from the other province.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 22/05/2023 15:03:26    2480563

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The All-Ireland hurling in 2 groups of 6 is the way forward. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. Top teams straight through to semi-finals. 6th placed teams in relegation final. The McDonagh would have to offer promotion only to the All-Ireland group stage.
The provincial championships could be played in knockout format after the league, only contested by the 12 All-Ireland teams. Provincial winners Seed 1 in the group stage. All others seeded on league ranking.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8111 - 22/05/2023 17:47:25    2480649

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The All-Ireland hurling in 2 groups of 6 is the way forward. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. Top teams straight through to semi-finals. 6th placed teams in relegation final. The McDonagh would have to offer promotion only to the All-Ireland group stage.
The provincial championships could be played in knockout format after the league, only contested by the 12 All-Ireland teams. Provincial winners Seed 1 in the group stage. All others seeded on league ranking."
Yeah seems like the way forward alright.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 22/05/2023 19:43:41    2480689

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The All-Ireland hurling in 2 groups of 6 is the way forward. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. Top teams straight through to semi-finals. 6th placed teams in relegation final. The McDonagh would have to offer promotion only to the All-Ireland group stage.
The provincial championships could be played in knockout format after the league, only contested by the 12 All-Ireland teams. Provincial winners Seed 1 in the group stage. All others seeded on league ranking."
You dont need to play provincial championships in full in between the league and championship.
interspace them between the league and all ireland championship.. like soccer have with all competitions

having pre seasons played to completion(these shouldnt even exist....) then the league to completion then provincial series to completion then all ireland should be changed.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3575 - 22/05/2023 22:10:58    2480717

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You dont need to play provincial championships in full in between the league and championship.
interspace them between the league and all ireland championship.. like soccer have with all competitions

having pre seasons played to completion(these shouldnt even exist....) then the league to completion then provincial series to completion then all ireland should be changed."
It's a terrible idea.

Look at the FA Cup in soccer and URC in Rugby and that'll tell you why.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4315 - 23/05/2023 10:25:28    2480783

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You dont need to play provincial championships in full in between the league and championship.
interspace them between the league and all ireland championship.. like soccer have with all competitions

having pre seasons played to completion(these shouldnt even exist....) then the league to completion then provincial series to completion then all ireland should be changed."
The issue with that is from my original idea on this is that winning the province guaranteed you a seeding in the group of 6, and being in the final guaranteed you another seeding.
You'd need to use the previous years standing, not an armageddon given there are not a massive amount of games. In fact, if you were going badly in the round robin you could argue that you go all out to win Munster/Leinster to get a seed for the following year but then you could counter argue that results in dead rubber games possibly?
No perfect solution but something has to be better to promote the game and level the playing field.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1238 - 23/05/2023 12:19:54    2480848

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