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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "If there is to be a united Ireland then Ulster protestants would have to be given a considerable degree of local autonomy and be accepted as British by identity.

Éire Nua proposed to do that in effect. All Ireland unity but federal regional and local self government, decentralized away from Dublin. From which everyone would benefit if done properly.

Have no expectations of either unity nor any turnaround from this country becoming more a cosmopolitan industrial estate and financial centre but it was a good idea."
Éire nua was quite progressive and a democratic. I think they would need some form of northern autonomy as a stepping stone. Within a few generations it becomes just another part of Ireland. Those identifying as British only are decreasing with every census and are predominantly the older cohort. The never never never crew are waning in influence. Look at how ineffective and small the Irish sea border and Fleg protests were compared to the mass mobilisation of the Ulster Workers Council. They will never be able to mimic that again. Drumcree and demographics broke them.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 972 - 31/05/2024 20:33:46    2548615

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Replying To yew_tree:  "If you think unionists will accept the tricolour your living in cloud cuckoo land."
Agree with this. If there is to be a re-united Ireland, like it or not , the flag and the anthem will have to be acceptable to all so will have to change. The fact is there are approx 1 million people on this island who will never accept the tricolour as their flag. Telling the unionist that the orange in the tricolour represents them, would be the same as the British saying the St Patrick's Cross represents us on the Union Jack.

If we are to re-unify the country, there must be compromise. If we forced them to suck it up and accept the flag and anthem, it will never work. I would prefer to keep our flag & anthem, but if the price for a re-united Ireland, was for them to change, I would accept it.

But in any case, I believe a referendum to re-unite the country is a long way away. It will happen more likely than not someday, but it is still more than 1 or 2 decades away.

county man (Limerick) - Posts: 1112 - 01/06/2024 15:30:48    2548694

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Replying To county man:  "Agree with this. If there is to be a re-united Ireland, like it or not , the flag and the anthem will have to be acceptable to all so will have to change. The fact is there are approx 1 million people on this island who will never accept the tricolour as their flag. Telling the unionist that the orange in the tricolour represents them, would be the same as the British saying the St Patrick's Cross represents us on the Union Jack.

If we are to re-unify the country, there must be compromise. If we forced them to suck it up and accept the flag and anthem, it will never work. I would prefer to keep our flag & anthem, but if the price for a re-united Ireland, was for them to change, I would accept it.

But in any case, I believe a referendum to re-unite the country is a long way away. It will happen more likely than not someday, but it is still more than 1 or 2 decades away."
Don't tell Sinn Féin and their gullible - if shrinking number of - voters. Its all they have left. A border poll that will probably never be held and which if it is, will back staying in the UK.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 01/06/2024 15:58:41    2548697

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Don't tell Sinn Féin and their gullible - if shrinking number of - voters. Its all they have left. A border poll that will probably never be held and which if it is, will back staying in the UK."
They would probably be right… who in their right minds would want to come down here to be led by our gomeless government….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2308 - 01/06/2024 16:26:21    2548701

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Replying To county man:  "Agree with this. If there is to be a re-united Ireland, like it or not , the flag and the anthem will have to be acceptable to all so will have to change. The fact is there are approx 1 million people on this island who will never accept the tricolour as their flag. Telling the unionist that the orange in the tricolour represents them, would be the same as the British saying the St Patrick's Cross represents us on the Union Jack.

If we are to re-unify the country, there must be compromise. If we forced them to suck it up and accept the flag and anthem, it will never work. I would prefer to keep our flag & anthem, but if the price for a re-united Ireland, was for them to change, I would accept it.

But in any case, I believe a referendum to re-unite the country is a long way away. It will happen more likely than not someday, but it is still more than 1 or 2 decades away."
Fair play to you for using the term"re-unite", a lot of people seem to think that unity will be something that never happened before.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 302 - 01/06/2024 16:40:06    2548705

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "They would probably be right… who in their right minds would want to come down here to be led by our gomeless government…."
Republicans and nationalists never envisaged that the 6 counties would be just added onto the other Partition state. Nor did the men of 16 - 21 envisage the sort of subservience to other states or the EU or to international capital. They would have left that to the Redmondites and Home Rule for the entire island.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 01/06/2024 16:47:17    2548709

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Republicans and nationalists never envisaged that the 6 counties would be just added onto the other Partition state. Nor did the men of 16 - 21 envisage the sort of subservience to other states or the EU or to international capital. They would have left that to the Redmondites and Home Rule for the entire island."
Yep let's be like Albania instead!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1704 - 02/06/2024 10:34:32    2548820

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Yep let's be like Albania instead!"
I was thinking more on the lines of Norway, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc. Independent sovereign nations with their own strong domestic economies that are not overwhelmingly in the hands of overseas capital and finance. And which have retained cultural pride and autonomy.

Albania by the way was run by the Left who in Ireland currently support all the negative factors I refer to.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 02/06/2024 11:02:23    2548826

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I was thinking more on the lines of Norway, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc. Independent sovereign nations with their own strong domestic economies that are not overwhelmingly in the hands of overseas capital and finance. And which have retained cultural pride and autonomy.

Albania by the way was run by the Left who in Ireland currently support all the negative factors I refer to."
Norway yes but Japan and S Korea have been essentially run by and are garrison countries for the US since WW2 and the Korean war respectively.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 972 - 02/06/2024 17:36:11    2548941

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "Norway yes but Japan and S Korea have been essentially run by and are garrison countries for the US since WW2 and the Korean war respectively."
That's nonsense. They are both prosperous democracies.

There are around the same number of American troops in Germany as there are in South Korea. Is Germany a "garrison"?

Would you prefer had the west allowed the Chinese reds and Stalin to overrun both countries? US has no role in running any of the countries mentioned. We, on the other hand, are partly occupied by Britain and take 70% of out legislation from Brussels.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 02/06/2024 18:15:12    2548964

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "That's nonsense. They are both prosperous democracies.

There are around the same number of American troops in Germany as there are in South Korea. Is Germany a "garrison"?

Would you prefer had the west allowed the Chinese reds and Stalin to overrun both countries? US has no role in running any of the countries mentioned. We, on the other hand, are partly occupied by Britain and take 70% of out legislation from Brussels."
Absolutely it has, they made sure they were bastions of capitalism in the east. South Korea was under dictatorship until relatively recently. In way Germany and western Europe was. The US was keen that western Europe adopted neoliberal capitalism and did not move too far left.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 972 - 02/06/2024 19:39:50    2548993

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Stop. Communism was as bad as,Nazism. Worse in fact as it was,responsible for a lot more deaths.

Anyone who seriously believes that Japanese people or South Koreans would be better had the,US left them to mercy of Chinese might reflect upon that.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 02/06/2024 19:55:37    2548998

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Stop. Communism was as bad as,Nazism. Worse in fact as it was,responsible for a lot more deaths.

Anyone who seriously believes that Japanese people or South Koreans would be better had the,US left them to mercy of Chinese might reflect upon that."
Yes but the point still stands. The countries were under the influence of foreign power. Just one you agree with and like.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 972 - 02/06/2024 22:23:14    2549043

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Stop. Communism was as bad as,Nazism. Worse in fact as it was,responsible for a lot more deaths.

Anyone who seriously believes that Japanese people or South Koreans would be better had the,US left them to mercy of Chinese might reflect upon that."
In Korea when the Chinese got involved directly they drove the combined South Korean/US forces back down the peninsula to approxinately the 38th parallel, which is where the original border was put after the allies liberated Korea from Japan, whereupon a truce was called. I've been to the truce village of Panmunjon. I've walked around the table into North Korea. North and South Korea are still at war. No treaty was ever signed.
The Chinese didn't get involved directly until after the Americans did Barney.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13015 - 03/06/2024 07:46:15    2549072

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Replying To Viking66:  "In Korea when the Chinese got involved directly they drove the combined South Korean/US forces back down the peninsula to approxinately the 38th parallel, which is where the original border was put after the allies liberated Korea from Japan, whereupon a truce was called. I've been to the truce village of Panmunjon. I've walked around the table into North Korea. North and South Korea are still at war. No treaty was ever signed.
The Chinese didn't get involved directly until after the Americans did Barney."
The median figure for number of people killed by North Korean Communists is 1,600,000. Some believe it may be over 3,000,000.

I'd imagine the millions spared below the 38th are rather pleased that the American "imperialists" prevented the imposition of socialism in the entire peninsula.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 03/06/2024 08:26:06    2549080

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Stop. Communism was as bad as,Nazism. Worse in fact as it was,responsible for a lot more deaths.

Anyone who seriously believes that Japanese people or South Koreans would be better had the,US left them to mercy of Chinese might reflect upon that."
As naive as it may sound, has real communism ever actually been done?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2945 - 03/06/2024 08:44:47    2549083

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "As naive as it may sound, has real communism ever actually been done?"
Has real Nazism ever been done?

Thankfully not. I suppose the hellholes of North Korea and Cuba stand as museum pieces, while the Chinese have adapted Communist totalitarianism to turning the Party elite into a vastly wealthy feudal aristocracy.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 03/06/2024 10:11:41    2549112

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "As naive as it may sound, has real communism ever actually been done?"
No it was always hijacked by a few capitalist/dictator types. Unfortunately George Orwell was spot on. Human nature I'm afraid. That's why I'd agree with Barney about communism. It's not a realistic solution to any of the world's problems.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13015 - 03/06/2024 10:48:02    2549122

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "As naive as it may sound, has real communism ever actually been done?"
Naive??

You're responding to someone who thinks Ireland would be better off out of the EU. You're not the naive one!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5081 - 03/06/2024 11:34:31    2549132

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "They would probably be right… who in their right minds would want to come down here to be led by our gomeless government…."
Ireland is one of the best countries in the world to live in. We are the 3rd safest country to live in after Denmark and Iceland. I have seen life in the UK, Australia and the US and I would much prefer to live in Ireland. Of course we have some problems but so do all countries.

crafty (Galway) - Posts: 253 - 03/06/2024 12:33:39    2549146

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