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Replying To Rolo2010: "Limiting the top tier to 8 counties does affect the development of more counties. Everyone remembers the Noughties as being competitive and it is no coincidence that we had Division 1A and 1B.
That should be restored and keep Divisions 2 and 3 below that." So the structure of the league should be about the development of teams? And the current league structure is why we have a non-event Championship?
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 11/09/2021 09:28:08
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Replying To AfricanGael: "How often do you see teams moving up through the Divisions and staying several years in Division 1 ?
As I said before it's easy to solve a problem if you are limiting the terms of reference to begin with instead of addressing the real issue of funding.
The only reason the GAA are even looking at a tiered Championship is to save themselves the constant embarrassment of witnessing hammerings, that is not addressing the real issue at all.
People can suggest all the fancy Dan formats they want and call it Champions this or Super that but it still does not address the real issue.
Anyone who thinks that because you are from Wicklow or Leitrim that you cant ever be in a position to compete with the Mayos or Tyrones of this world regardless of funding have clearly never played or coached at a high level and don't know anything about nurturing players from a young age, but it takes time and money and the GAA have failed the majority of counties.
What incentive is there for a good young player from Wicklow to be even bothered by inter county football when he has been already branded "weaker".
The GAA still want to make money out of him though but aren't willing to give anything back.
With the right structures in place there is absolutely no reason why a Wicklow could not compete in the Leinster Championship but this is something that should have been done 15 to 20 years ago and ran from central level not leaving every County Board to run amok when funding is allocated." I think teams moving up and down the league divisions is a successful aspect of that structure.
There's no doubt that funding is an issue.
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 11/09/2021 09:33:36
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Whatever we end up with it should be a balanced competition where we try to at least make the route to potential success be similar for the competing teams. Having drastically different no. of teams in each provincial championship which then feeds into the the overall competition is not logical.
This means the route to success is completely different for different counties.
Whatever structures the GAA come up with should be simple and balanced.
Proposal A would result in a balanced/ logical competition structure (although deciding what teams leave. Leinster/ Ulster would be tough, for example I would hate to see a team like Offaly, with their previous history of success in Leinster be moved to Connaught because of their location).
I think Proposal B looses out a bit for me in that I don't really get why you would play a league competition to qualify for another separate league type system.
Maybe the simplest solution would be to have each team play in 2 separate and non linked competitions, play in your own provincial championship (prospect of winning a provincial championship is still a huge for many counties, more so than winning a division in the current league) and have the All Ireland structure similar to the current league structure (personally I would like the All Ireland structured similarly to when the league was 2 divisions sub divided into div. 1A & 1B and div. 2A & 2B, this way teams outside of the top division would have the incentive of knowing they were 1 promotion away from competing for Sam the following year)." I agree completely with this.
When the club player's association first came in they came up with a season very like this one in one of their proposals.
They had a traditional style All Ireland cup to start the season. 4 Provinces moving on to All Ireland semifinals.
They then had 2 groups of 8 in each tier for the championship.
It was simple but ticked a lot of the right boxes for me.
Kieran Donaghy I believe has supported a similar championship format also.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 11/09/2021 10:01:41
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Replying To Ban: "How is the league not working?
Also, what problem do you think congress are trying to resolve by reviewing the proposals discussed in this Tread?" It depends what you mean by the league is "working" though.
If you support limiting the help that under funded counties need to be able to compete with the Mayos and Tyrones then it's easy to say it's "working" but wouldn't you agree that it would work even better if more counties could actually get stronger and not just compete in their league but also compete in the Provincials and the Championship.
Congress are not trying to find a way to actually make these counties stronger, they are basically lumping them together like junk loans and throwing them a couple of Mickey Mouse cups.
That's not helping them, it's just locking them away in a room, where they'll be forgotten about.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/09/2021 10:02:57
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Replying To Ban: "I think teams moving up and down the league divisions is a successful aspect of that structure.
There's no doubt that funding is an issue." It's just a consequential outcome though, the alternative would be a closed shop where no team could ever be relegated from Division One which would be totally ludicrous.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 11/09/2021 11:05:43
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Replying To AfricanGael: "It depends what you mean by the league is "working" though.
If you support limiting the help that under funded counties need to be able to compete with the Mayos and Tyrones then it's easy to say it's "working" but wouldn't you agree that it would work even better if more counties could actually get stronger and not just compete in their league but also compete in the Provincials and the Championship.
Congress are not trying to find a way to actually make these counties stronger, they are basically lumping them together like junk loans and throwing them a couple of Mickey Mouse cups.
That's not helping them, it's just locking them away in a room, where they'll be forgotten about." I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I've been a proponent of a sponsorship share scheme, where those counties bringing in more than average in terms of sponsorship get taxed at 50% on what they earn above the average.
So average is 1m say, Dublin makes 2m, 500k will be reinvested into the pool. If Antrim pulled in 500k we'd receive 250k from the pool.
Counties would still have incentive to earn but some of the fruits of that earning potential are shared.
The GAA have distributions to counties that include both expenses and prize money for progress in the championships.
The prize money aspect should be removed and the funds reinvested directly into the equal distribution piece of central funding.
There are then challenges at the county board level though too. Some county boards are flat out bad. I think you kind of need one centrally financed independent member of the county board as a check and balance on the running of the county.
Another big problem is that some counties promote one code over the other.
I don't think it's a coincidence that football is waning a bit in Munster and South Leinster with the hurling development that's gone in there. How we grow both games in all areas is a problem we have to grapple with the answer to.
Finally I think some who say that the football competition structures are broken are coming from their own perspective as a neutral fan. Hurling has a great top tier competition but is that at the expense of the game across the non-elite counties. There's a lot of inertia in hurling where teams don't tangibly improve their levels.
In football for what it's worth, teams do actually properly progress their levels. Counties like Roscommon and Monaghan are consistently at a higher level than they were 20 years ago. Fermanagh and Clare even are too. Mayo are regular all Ireland contenders which they weren't really during the 80s.
Laois, Wexford, Westmeath, Armagh have all had recent periods where they've properly competed at a higher level than they had previously.
There are 32 teams and in any given season there's teams in good shape and those that aren't in good shape. It's not always the same, it does ebb and flow a bit more than hurling would.
I feel like people overreact to a hammering happening. The competition is broken. Hammerings happen, they can happen in All Ireland finals and semifinals. They can happen in replays. Roscommon drew with Mayo in a QF a few years ago only to get stuffed in the replay. Cork beat Kerry last year only to getting pummelled this year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 11/09/2021 12:22:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "I agree completely with this.
When the club player's association first came in they came up with a season very like this one in one of their proposals.
They had a traditional style All Ireland cup to start the season. 4 Provinces moving on to All Ireland semifinals.
They then had 2 groups of 8 in each tier for the championship.
It was simple but ticked a lot of the right boxes for me.
Kieran Donaghy I believe has supported a similar championship format also." Not if it results in a multiple counties miving up despute not winning Tier 2. Provs are not being moved. Ulster council have seen to that.
The 1A/1B but 2A/2B suffered from a lot of uncompetitive games. I would restore 1A/1B but keep Divisions 2 and 3 in the League.
Proposal A is closer to the one we will eventually get. Leinster weren't all that opposed to rotating counties out. The format could be ammended to keep all 9 Ulster counties together. The rest can have 8 each.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 11/09/2021 12:30:27
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Not if it results in a multiple counties miving up despute not winning Tier 2. Provs are not being moved. Ulster council have seen to that.
The 1A/1B but 2A/2B suffered from a lot of uncompetitive games. I would restore 1A/1B but keep Divisions 2 and 3 in the League.
Proposal A is closer to the one we will eventually get. Leinster weren't all that opposed to rotating counties out. The format could be ammended to keep all 9 Ulster counties together. The rest can have 8 each." I am strongly in favour of there being a good flow of more than just the winners of a second tier moving up and down between tiers. Without that you get inertia and if there's a bottle neck that's when teams can start losing interest in the second tier competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 11/09/2021 13:49:26
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Just do what Brolly is proposing if the League and Provs will both link into All-Ireland. Top 11 in League + Tier 2 champions + 4 Provincial champions. All remaing counties go into Tier 2.
I still think Provs need to be their own thing though." Did Brolly just steal the Jim McGuiness idea ? - just put his name on this - can't see what's unique about it.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 11/09/2021 16:36:06
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Replying To wicklowsupport: "In my opinion, you are correct. Why devise a tier 2 competition that is knock-out based when they could stick with the qualifiers? Also, a knock-out tier 2 competition doesn't offer counties any more games that the current system does except tier 2 teams are playing similar standard teams that they will be playing in the league. Devising a new system that includes the provincial championships is next to impossible. The options are - separate the provincial, the championship and the league but this will take long to play off which impacts the club championship or incorporate the league and the championship into one competition and play the provincial championship as a separate competition in it's own right. I think the super 8s is gone as no one seems to think they are worth it." Use the NFL as a Prov Champp Qualifier ?
Top 4 only in each Prov to limited better Provs ?
NFL with 1A/1B, 2 & 3 to Wham-style AIC = 4 Prov Champs & NFL top 2 non-Champs from both Divs 1 & 2 to AI Rd 3 (Rd of 16); Bottom 4, 6 & 6 non-Champs from Divs 1, 2 & 3 to Rd 1; Other 8 to Rd 2.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 11/09/2021 19:38:30
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That should read -
4 Prov Champs & NFL top 2 non-Champs from both Divs 1A & 1B to AI Rd 3 (Rd of 16); Bottom 2, 2, 6 & 6 non-Champs from Divs 1A, 1B, 2 & 3 to Rd 1; Other 8 to Rd 2.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 11/09/2021 20:38:27
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Replying To AfricanGael: "It depends what you mean by the league is "working" though.
If you support limiting the help that under funded counties need to be able to compete with the Mayos and Tyrones then it's easy to say it's "working" but wouldn't you agree that it would work even better if more counties could actually get stronger and not just compete in their league but also compete in the Provincials and the Championship.
Congress are not trying to find a way to actually make these counties stronger, they are basically lumping them together like junk loans and throwing them a couple of Mickey Mouse cups.
That's not helping them, it's just locking them away in a room, where they'll be forgotten about." The above, if extended to hurling, is definitely true. We started with three hurling tiers now we have five. The teams that were bottom of the third are the ones that are now bottom of the fifth . They are as far away as ever from the top.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 11/09/2021 23:50:32
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Replying To bennybunny: "The above, if extended to hurling, is definitely true. We started with three hurling tiers now we have five. The teams that were bottom of the third are the ones that are now bottom of the fifth . They are as far away as ever from the top." We have a fine game of hurling and a good championship each year. If we'd 32 counties lumped in together into championship, like we have in football, we'd have a terribly sad game; Limerick beating Leitrim by 50 points; Dublin beating Donegal by another 50; even Cork beating Carlow by 15.
What people who preach maintaining the current system in football mix up or confuse is; promoting the game in weaker counties vs. having a competitive championship where teams fight it out in their own weight division. The two things are totally separate issues.
The game of course should be, has to be promoted in the weaker counties. But that should be done irrespective of whether we have the current, unworkable, sick system or whether we have a 3-tier system; senior, intermediate (where Cork will be), and junior.
Actually, let's say Leitrim win the junior, and go up to intermediate, isn't their going to be more of a buzz and more interest in the game, than when they got the hiding this year from Mayo under the current system? Wouldn't there be more of a drive in Cork to put their money where their mouth is, and prove that they're a senior team rather than intermediate? Wouldn't these tiered system generate more interest within counties? Supporters would go to games with a chance of seeing their county win. Not stay at home because they know it's going to be a massacre, like the current system facilitates.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 12/09/2021 11:07:39
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Replying To foreveryoung: "We have a fine game of hurling and a good championship each year. If we'd 32 counties lumped in together into championship, like we have in football, we'd have a terribly sad game; Limerick beating Leitrim by 50 points; Dublin beating Donegal by another 50; even Cork beating Carlow by 15.
What people who preach maintaining the current system in football mix up or confuse is; promoting the game in weaker counties vs. having a competitive championship where teams fight it out in their own weight division. The two things are totally separate issues.
The game of course should be, has to be promoted in the weaker counties. But that should be done irrespective of whether we have the current, unworkable, sick system or whether we have a 3-tier system; senior, intermediate (where Cork will be), and junior.
Actually, let's say Leitrim win the junior, and go up to intermediate, isn't their going to be more of a buzz and more interest in the game, than when they got the hiding this year from Mayo under the current system? Wouldn't there be more of a drive in Cork to put their money where their mouth is, and prove that they're a senior team rather than intermediate? Wouldn't these tiered system generate more interest within counties? Supporters would go to games with a chance of seeing their county win. Not stay at home because they know it's going to be a massacre, like the current system facilitates." For me 5 tiers in hurling is too many and 3 tiers in football would be too many also.
I agree that there are stories that can be created by a team going on a run at their own level but you also can't allow the structure to widen the gaps further which I think is something that can happen when teams are competing too far away from the top table.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 12/09/2021 13:15:22
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Replying To Whammo86: "For me 5 tiers in hurling is too many and 3 tiers in football would be too many also.
I agree that there are stories that can be created by a team going on a run at their own level but you also can't allow the structure to widen the gaps further which I think is something that can happen when teams are competing too far away from the top table." The gaps are as wide as the Grand Canyon as things stand, and always have been.
When were Waterford footballers ever with pi$$ing distance of winning Munster? Or Limerick? Or Clare? Or Carlow in Leinster? Or Laois? Or Wicklow? Or Kilkenny? Or Leitrim or Sligo in Connaught? And don't try and parade in front of me the one or two titles they have won in 134 years of trying!
In that same 134 years, Cork, the biggest county, with the most clubs, and great resources, has won 7, yes only 7, senior football titles. Can that be considered a success in anyone's eyes? Not in mine. And if one of the biggest and best resourced counties cannot cut the ice, but very sporadically, under the current system, what chance have the minnows? None!
Three tiers! Not even two. That's the way forward.
foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 12/09/2021 15:54:55
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Replying To foreveryoung: "The gaps are as wide as the Grand Canyon as things stand, and always have been.
When were Waterford footballers ever with pi$$ing distance of winning Munster? Or Limerick? Or Clare? Or Carlow in Leinster? Or Laois? Or Wicklow? Or Kilkenny? Or Leitrim or Sligo in Connaught? And don't try and parade in front of me the one or two titles they have won in 134 years of trying!
In that same 134 years, Cork, the biggest county, with the most clubs, and great resources, has won 7, yes only 7, senior football titles. Can that be considered a success in anyone's eyes? Not in mine. And if one of the biggest and best resourced counties cannot cut the ice, but very sporadically, under the current system, what chance have the minnows? None!
Three tiers! Not even two. That's the way forward." Yeah I'm not arguing for the current system.
I think there should be a 2 tier system.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 12/09/2021 16:51:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah I'm not arguing for the current system.
I think there should be a 2 tier system." 2 and a half then :)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 12/09/2021 18:04:50
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I am repeating with tweaks....
Use the NFL as a Prov Champp Qualifier ?
Top 4 only in NFL to each Prov to limited better Provs ?
NFL with 1A/1B, 2 & 3 & Prov Champs to Wham-style AIC = 4 Prov Champs & NFL top 4 non-Champs from across Div 1 (A or B) to AI Rd 3 (Rd of 16); Bottom 2, 2, 6 & 6 non-Prov Finalists from Divs 1A, 1B, 2 & 3 to Rd 1; Other 8 to Rd 2.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 12/09/2021 18:17:55
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Vote in option B. In terms of solving the tiered championship or giving every one a shot at Sam, it solves both. It is tiered and nobody is excluded at the start of the year. If Leitrim win Division 4 and show good form they get a shot at All Ireland series. It's a long shot but currently it's a long shot. The better Division 1 sides have a better chance under B but they do now anyway.
Playing provincial championships as separate competitions is fine with me. From a Munster perspective, I know it will be a while before we can really compete consistently. If it is run off preseason Kerry will probably put their C team...it will be a farce..but then again, it was a farce last year too.
They could look at provincial as Calcutta Cup or Triple Crown format. Next year, Meath and Dublin will be in Division 1. Let that match be the Leinster final. Dublin are going to be in it anyway. Meath are best of the rest. There would be no Munster championship next year as only Kerry are Division 1. If Cork or Clare improve significantly and get to Division 1, it can be reinstated. Only when they improve, will it be competitive anyway so having a Munster championship where Kerry win by default is better than this year's tripe. Mayo are better (though gap is narrower) than other Connacht teams. In Ulster there are 4 teams in Division 1..play it as triple Crown. Their own mini league. Winners are Ulster champions . Provincial councils get the gate receipts.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 13/09/2021 17:13:35
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Replying To bennybunny: "Vote in option B. In terms of solving the tiered championship or giving every one a shot at Sam, it solves both. It is tiered and nobody is excluded at the start of the year. If Leitrim win Division 4 and show good form they get a shot at All Ireland series. It's a long shot but currently it's a long shot. The better Division 1 sides have a better chance under B but they do now anyway.
Playing provincial championships as separate competitions is fine with me. From a Munster perspective, I know it will be a while before we can really compete consistently. If it is run off preseason Kerry will probably put their C team...it will be a farce..but then again, it was a farce last year too.
They could look at provincial as Calcutta Cup or Triple Crown format. Next year, Meath and Dublin will be in Division 1. Let that match be the Leinster final. Dublin are going to be in it anyway. Meath are best of the rest. There would be no Munster championship next year as only Kerry are Division 1. If Cork or Clare improve significantly and get to Division 1, it can be reinstated. Only when they improve, will it be competitive anyway so having a Munster championship where Kerry win by default is better than this year's tripe. Mayo are better (though gap is narrower) than other Connacht teams. In Ulster there are 4 teams in Division 1..play it as triple Crown. Their own mini league. Winners are Ulster champions . Provincial councils get the gate receipts." Kildare are in Div 1 not Meath. Leitrim shouldn't get a shot at Sam by winning Div 4.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 13/09/2021 22:29:04
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