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Replying To Breffni40:  "And people disagreeing with the likes of Ronan Mullen forcing his personal interpretation of "faith" in his particular deity on them politically are somehow intolerant"
People mistake questioning people's statements and opinions with intolerance.

I mean I completely tolerate Ronan Mullen.

But I disagree with him on a lot of things, I'm sure we probably agree on something too.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13797 - 15/01/2021 15:08:31    2327582

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Replying To oneoff:  "A guard took his own life last week. While many will blame the likes of Gemma O Dohery and likes yet the new woke left wing polititions and the likes are as much to blame. Their Anti Garda rhetoric is there for all to see in the last few weeks.

It's very clear you're in the group of "I'm always right no matter what" Any one who dares say anything you disagree with is shot down straight away. Yet anyone who shares your view is always right.

Like always you'll have something that in your own head makes you right and everyone else is wrong."
Also the only reason right-wing poiticians are "pro-Gardai" is because they now what side their bread is buttered on. Multiple expensive never-ending tribunals that me and you pay for have proven this.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12342 - 15/01/2021 16:05:54    2327592

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Anyway I hope everyone has a good weekend, regardless of their tolerance levels. Just watch out for those woke left-wing politicians, you couldn't be up to their divilment

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12342 - 15/01/2021 16:38:40    2327600

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Replying To Breffni40:  "I'm glad your PP helped you with your personal troubles. He's to be commended, but non-religious people are there for you to talk to also. The fact he's a well paid member of an oppressive cult does not elevate his actions above anyone else."
Come on now lad I wasn't elevating his actions over others at all, don't be putting your own spin on my comment.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 15/01/2021 17:45:21    2327610

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Some of the cruelty which pervaded Irish society was a product of the Civil War,when it was an act of patriotism for brother to shoot brother.
I went to school in the 1950s. We had good times and bad.
When a ten year old was late for school,after walking two miles ,he got four lashes. And if his homework was deficient he got another four lashes. But it was democratic because the next fellow got the same. And so it went on. We survived it .Should we sue for compo?

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 351 - 15/01/2021 18:39:15    2327620

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Replying To MesAmis:  "The post that I originally replied to made the comparison between the "Woke, permanently offended" and the Catholic Church's control in Ireland in the past.

I have simply asserted that I disagree with that comparison.

Yourself and a number of other posters have taken exception to my disagreement.

None of you have offered any examples of the power and influence of the "Woke, permanently offended" that is comparible to the huge power and influence that the Church once had in Ireland.

"Anyone who disagrees with you is always wrong" - that's your assertion. Many people, posters on this site included, have disagreed with me and they've been correct. What they've had in common though was an ability to actually back up their opinion and make an argument beyond using borrowed cliches and labels and using their factual knowledge to explain to me how I am wrong. That is yet to happen on this thread.

If people have direct examples that show that the Liberal Woke Brigade exert the same level of power and influence and are just as dangerous to the average person on the street as the church once were then I'm all ears."
I'm not trying to start a row with you in any way but if your looking for an example of power and influence of woke culture in Ireland, the carry-on during the abortion referendum is a big 1. The complete bias national media and politicians gave to the yes side, I listen to different radio stations radio1, Todayfm and 4fm, love him or hate him the only person in Irish national media that gave proper balance in discussions and debates during the referendum was Niall Boylan on 4fm. Then you had people on the yes side removing No side posters around the country and the same people had the cheek to label people who disagreed with them fascists.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 15/01/2021 19:48:35    2327635

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I personally have no idea about when the bishop stopped throwing in the ball in the All-Ireland final... if I was going by the trends of the history books I'd imagine sometime in the 70s or 80s.

I appeal, even as a hugely politically minded young man and a person with strong views, to leave this out lads. Stick to the football. Stick to the hurling. I'll talk about it all day long with all of you. There's tonnes of social/political forums out there lads. This one is for the GAA and escapism, lets enrich that.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 597 - 15/01/2021 20:35:10    2327642

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "I'm not trying to start a row with you in any way but if your looking for an example of power and influence of woke culture in Ireland, the carry-on during the abortion referendum is a big 1. The complete bias national media and politicians gave to the yes side, I listen to different radio stations radio1, Todayfm and 4fm, love him or hate him the only person in Irish national media that gave proper balance in discussions and debates during the referendum was Niall Boylan on 4fm. Then you had people on the yes side removing No side posters around the country and the same people had the cheek to label people who disagreed with them fascists."
If the Church is what it claims to be ,then it is 100% important.
If it's not ,then it is 0% important.

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 351 - 15/01/2021 20:56:40    2327645

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "I'm not trying to start a row with you in any way but if your looking for an example of power and influence of woke culture in Ireland, the carry-on during the abortion referendum is a big 1. The complete bias national media and politicians gave to the yes side, I listen to different radio stations radio1, Todayfm and 4fm, love him or hate him the only person in Irish national media that gave proper balance in discussions and debates during the referendum was Niall Boylan on 4fm. Then you had people on the yes side removing No side posters around the country and the same people had the cheek to label people who disagreed with them fascists."
Politicians don't have to impartial during referendums?

A lot of No side people were very upset when some in the media asked them to defend their position that is true. I've never heard of Niall Boylan so I'll take your word for it that he was tip top.

I think you're reaching a bit to be honest. I don't see how a democratically run referendum that pretty much went along the lines that polls were predicting proves the massive influence that the Woke Brigade have on Irish society. The fact that we had to have a referendum in the first place does show the massive influence and power that the Church had though. Most countries that allowed Women to have Reprodtive Rights over their own bodies didn't require a referendum.

Plenty of people removed or defaced posters on both sides, as has happened in every referendum I can remember.

The Woke Bogeyman has a long, long way to go to catch up with the Church in terms of influence and control.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13797 - 15/01/2021 21:47:47    2327652

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Very interesting and enjoyable thread. Hot button topics, strongly defended, and still pretty civilised. In most other forums, this topic would have descended into open warfare and childish insults.

I'm mid-50s, a child of the 70s, who had older parents and live-in family members and from them I have a strong sense of the reality of rural communities in the 50s. It was a lot jollier and more raucous than the patronising, retrospective stereotypes would have you believe. In the rural peasant culture I come from, people were used to being pushed around by the powerful, whether that be military, political or clerical. People played along to survive, but it'd be wise not to judge that generation's book entirely by the pious cover. McGahern's books are good at showing the irreverent reality behind the outward deference. Sure, hypocrisy and social disapproval, but very few minds were colonised. Drinking poitin, courting in haysheds en route home on bicycles after dances, shooting at the army, house dances until the small hours ... I remember being amazed at my late uncle recounting about a gang of them attending an all Ireland final in the 50s, and one of the lads going off on an unsuccessful search for a hooker. My uncle conned him into propositioning a flower seller, who, outraged, slapped his face, to the huge glee of the rest of the lads. The thing that startled my teenage self was how non judgemental they were. Yet all of them would have went to chapel. A lot of it was a pure facade. The richer middle classes took it deadly seriously, but plenty of the poorer people, who were instinctively distrustful of any authority figure were pretty far from "oppressed", though the retrospective urban commentariat, convinced of their own superiority, struggle to appreciate such nuances.

I put up with the same patronising crap about how "grim" growing up during the Troubles were. In reality, being lifted, having your house turned over, endless check points, I found it energizing and educational about the nature of power. Of course there were appalling deeds and utter heartbreak, on all sides. Nobody's denying that.
But what gets lost is that, despite, or maybe even because of the grim stuff, I also found the 70s and 80s to be a riot of fun, and, occasionally, an actual riot. I was in demos that were shot at by the cops with baton rounds, and I remember what fun it was. Of course, if I was in polite society, I'd put on the sad face and agree about how uniformly grim it was. I always get the impression that if I said to people about the crack we had at checkpoints, winding up the Brits, nobody believe me.

And the same nuanced picture of 1950s ireland is also lost.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 15/01/2021 22:17:44    2327654

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Replying To Breffni40:  "If there's a "woke left wing politician" who has buried a baby in a septic tank in the name of their god, then by all means we can make comparisons.

Blaming "woke left-wing politicians" for the tragic death of a Gardai, following terrible abuse by right-wing religious bigots, and accusing them of intolerance is an alarming leap."
Tens of thousands of people in this country, consider that a large percentage of the 6000 abortions in the last year , to also be the murder of babies. I certainly dont see the figure as a cause for celebration. Only history can judge us,but I wouldnt be too arrogant that this generation is doing everything right.

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 95 - 15/01/2021 23:13:43    2327666

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Also the only reason right-wing poiticians are "pro-Gardai" is because they now what side their bread is buttered on. Multiple expensive never-ending tribunals that me and you pay for have proven this."
Why does everyone have to be put into a category? Left or right? Can you be right leaning on some issues and left on others?

As for the Gardai...I would like to think the vast vast majority of Irish people support what they do. The anti mask tricolor waving headbangers are thankfully in the minority.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11564 - 16/01/2021 00:11:47    2327672

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Replying To essmac:  "Very interesting and enjoyable thread. Hot button topics, strongly defended, and still pretty civilised. In most other forums, this topic would have descended into open warfare and childish insults.

I'm mid-50s, a child of the 70s, who had older parents and live-in family members and from them I have a strong sense of the reality of rural communities in the 50s. It was a lot jollier and more raucous than the patronising, retrospective stereotypes would have you believe. In the rural peasant culture I come from, people were used to being pushed around by the powerful, whether that be military, political or clerical. People played along to survive, but it'd be wise not to judge that generation's book entirely by the pious cover. McGahern's books are good at showing the irreverent reality behind the outward deference. Sure, hypocrisy and social disapproval, but very few minds were colonised. Drinking poitin, courting in haysheds en route home on bicycles after dances, shooting at the army, house dances until the small hours ... I remember being amazed at my late uncle recounting about a gang of them attending an all Ireland final in the 50s, and one of the lads going off on an unsuccessful search for a hooker. My uncle conned him into propositioning a flower seller, who, outraged, slapped his face, to the huge glee of the rest of the lads. The thing that startled my teenage self was how non judgemental they were. Yet all of them would have went to chapel. A lot of it was a pure facade. The richer middle classes took it deadly seriously, but plenty of the poorer people, who were instinctively distrustful of any authority figure were pretty far from "oppressed", though the retrospective urban commentariat, convinced of their own superiority, struggle to appreciate such nuances.

I put up with the same patronising crap about how "grim" growing up during the Troubles were. In reality, being lifted, having your house turned over, endless check points, I found it energizing and educational about the nature of power. Of course there were appalling deeds and utter heartbreak, on all sides. Nobody's denying that.
But what gets lost is that, despite, or maybe even because of the grim stuff, I also found the 70s and 80s to be a riot of fun, and, occasionally, an actual riot. I was in demos that were shot at by the cops with baton rounds, and I remember what fun it was. Of course, if I was in polite society, I'd put on the sad face and agree about how uniformly grim it was. I always get the impression that if I said to people about the crack we had at checkpoints, winding up the Brits, nobody believe me.

And the same nuanced picture of 1950s ireland is also lost."
Like you I enjoyed reading this thread and particularly enjoyed reading your own post ,largely because it would correspond with a lot of my own experiences and feelings bar the Troubles obviously.I too grew up in a relatively rural area in the seventies and eighties,but had a lot of older siblings who grew up in the previous decades.They and my parents generation went to dances, the pictures, took part in local drama, played and went to matches,card games etc and got on with life despite the fact that money would have been very scarce.Life would have been the same for most people around.The church was of course very influential,an influence which was probably weakening by the time I came around ,but like you said a lot of people picked and chose what suited them and outwardly gave a pious appearance .Obviously for lots of other people their experience was vastly different and they suffered horrendously as a result.Its just that sometimes the narrative is that everything was dull and grey and oppressed when that may not have been everyones experience. In a similar vein people regularly comment on how grim the 1980s were and they definitely were, if you were one of the thousands who had to emigrate or were trying to rear a family. However I went to secondary school in the 80s, and even though no one had a tosser there was plenty of good times.I also went to school to the brothers and although I have no interest in religion I would have to say the ones I came across were sound men,although I'd adknowledge that not may have been the case in previous times.I appreciate that I might be lucky,but not everything in history is black and white,and plenty of well rounded people came through that period and went on to live relatively normal lives.

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 153 - 16/01/2021 00:16:42    2327674

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Why does everyone have to be put into a category? Left or right? Can you be right leaning on some issues and left on others?

As for the Gardai...I would like to think the vast vast majority of Irish people support what they do. The anti mask tricolor waving headbangers are thankfully in the minority."
This is a good post.

There is no "right" answer to any of these questions.

I think the best thing I can do in my life is try to learn and be better and evolve my opinion.

Listening to others, thinking things through myself, taking good faith argument on board and then using it as it should be.

On the abortion topic for instance. In my mind it's not a good thing for a woman to be in need of an abortion but if she does it needs to be provided. At the end of the day the only alternative to that would be forced births which would be absolutely barbaric.

You have to accept that we live in a very imperfect world. People make mistakes, people have situations forced on to them.

The Catholic Church as a large cohort of the anti abortion lobby has for a very long time resisted attempts to help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Resistance to sex education. Resistance to contraception. Resisting divorce to allow women and children to remove themselves from abusive situations.

There's evidence to show a link between permitting abortion and lower rates of unwanted pregnancy because they have improved sexual awareness and more open discussion on these sorts of topics.

To just try to ban abortion and hope that it solves other underlying problems is really regressive in my book.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4524 - 16/01/2021 10:25:24    2327683

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On the treatment of JK Rowling, she really wasn't in anyway cancelled. She was provided the platform to articulate fully her ideas to a degree that none of us could ever dream of.

In my opinion her ideas are wrong and need to be challenged.

There's an interesting and really tough debate to be had about whether her ideas actually should be platformed in the way that they are.

Trans people are exhausted about their existence and acceptance in society being debated, for instance.

At the same time it is important for bad beliefs to be aired and out in the open so that they can be challenged rather than fester underground.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4524 - 16/01/2021 10:35:09    2327684

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Fine Utah.But why have you and so many of your contemporaries no interest in religion? That mindset is part of the problem.You may desire to hold onto the finite freedom which secularity offers but to express no interest at all in the infinite freedom which religion presents??.The origin and ultimate meaning of life,why are we here, is life just a meaningless process without meaning or purpose? Why do these great philosophical questions not interest people with your obvious ability? I am not here talking about the{in some ways} fake religion of the de Valera times but the religion of some of the greatest intellects the world has known.

worple (Roscommon) - Posts: 351 - 16/01/2021 11:57:58    2327690

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Replying To worple:  "Fine Utah.But why have you and so many of your contemporaries no interest in religion? That mindset is part of the problem.You may desire to hold onto the finite freedom which secularity offers but to express no interest at all in the infinite freedom which religion presents??.The origin and ultimate meaning of life,why are we here, is life just a meaningless process without meaning or purpose? Why do these great philosophical questions not interest people with your obvious ability? I am not here talking about the{in some ways} fake religion of the de Valera times but the religion of some of the greatest intellects the world has known."
I've no interest in religion, in my mind it's actually anti-knowledge or learning. If we were to take religious beliefs as fact there wouldn't be room for ideas like evolution.

I don't see where religion helps to explain anything really.

The question of how did all begin being answered by God is ridiculous. Where did God come from?

It explains nothing.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4524 - 16/01/2021 13:49:10    2327699

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Replying To worple:  "Fine Utah.But why have you and so many of your contemporaries no interest in religion? That mindset is part of the problem.You may desire to hold onto the finite freedom which secularity offers but to express no interest at all in the infinite freedom which religion presents??.The origin and ultimate meaning of life,why are we here, is life just a meaningless process without meaning or purpose? Why do these great philosophical questions not interest people with your obvious ability? I am not here talking about the{in some ways} fake religion of the de Valera times but the religion of some of the greatest intellects the world has known."
Worple, how can you say religion presents "infinite freedom"?

Christians believe we are all born with original sin. Every child is in debt to god from the moment they are born, heading straight for hell unless they accept jesus.

Muslims believe in complete submission to allah or face eternity in hell. Their scripture is supposed to be perfect and unaltered and cannot be questioned.

This isn't freedom, far from it.

A secular society allows the individual to examine the claims and whatever evidence presented before drawing their own conclusions.

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1558 - 16/01/2021 16:28:07    2327721

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've no interest in religion, in my mind it's actually anti-knowledge or learning. If we were to take religious beliefs as fact there wouldn't be room for ideas like evolution.

I don't see where religion helps to explain anything really.

The question of how did all begin being answered by God is ridiculous. Where did God come from?

It explains nothing."
I'd agree with some of what you're saying Whammo but don't tell me for one minute that humanity is capable of explaining the origins of the universe and therefore the origins of life with or without religion. Science as humanity has developed it is not capable of explaining the origins of the universe. I can remember my late father talking about his catechism as it was taught in primary school in the early to mid forties. They were taught that the world began 4,000 years ago. He knew then as a young boy that that could not be true. There were assertions made by the Catholic religion that were blatantly untrue. Most of those have now been dispensed with. Show me any human philosophy that's perfect. Science too has evolved. Assertions made by science many years ago have now been disproven. Philosophies and science continuously evolve. Look say for example at the development of democracy. Real democracy has it's origins in the ideas of The Enlightenment. Scottish teachers who had studied the ideas of The Enlightenment greatly influenced the most prominent Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Both of those men were crucial to the propagation of the idea that men were capable of ruling themselves as opposed to being ruled by a king or despot. Those Scottish teachers who made such a contribution to the development of democracy were profoundly religious. Jefferson and Madison developed democracy both theoretically and also in practice before, during and after their presidencies. They also developed a secular society. Madison in particular was crucially important in decoupling the state from the church. This all evolved as a result of the thinking and actions of people who were grounded in religion and also of people who believed in a secular society. Religion and secularism can and should coexist. . Sadly in the past in this country the Catholic hierarchy as opposed to the philosophy itself was highly intolerant of anything that might challenge it's preeminence . We have replaced that orthodoxy with a secular movement that unfortunately is equally if not more intolerant. The degree of intolerance exhibited by our newish, supposedly liberal secularism seems to be increasing. That is both sad and disconcerting. Apologies for the length of the post Whammo. I didn't intend for that to happen when I started.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6178 - 16/01/2021 18:47:35    2327740

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Replying To eoinog:  "When did the tradition of the bishop throwing in the ball at the start of a game cease."
We have gone off point. I would guess early 1970's. The Archbishop of Cashel, Patron of the GAA, threw in the ball for All Ireland Finals. In 1972 the Govt. repealed the section of the 1937 Constitution, recognising the Catholic Church, as the majority religion. The Constitution recognised all religions, but inserted the relevant paragraph, rather than recognise Catholicism, as the official religion, as requested by certain prelates. Incidentally all the players lined up at centre field, then once the ball was thrown in, the backs went back, and the forwards went forward. At club level though, some people of the Protestant faith played GAA, my own club had a few COI members, like other clubs in Offaly.
Personally favouring one faith over another is wrong, but we lived in different times then.
Thankfully nowadays, GAA players at club and county level come from all faiths and none. Society is more open today.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 421 - 16/01/2021 19:25:20    2327745

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