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For teams equal on pts, initial tie breakers could be:
1) head-to-head; and 2) stronger beginning seed.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 12/10/2026 17:07:34
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Replying To omahant: "@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4130 - 12/10/2026 12:54:10
All your points are valid - I have no issues and was fully aware of them.
The main driver behind the actual Proposal and mine is to provide help for weaker teams via a more favourable schedule, while keeping attractive ties (Galway v Dubs or KK) and avoiding extremes (Galway v Kildare).
I defend my proposal by stating that every team is primarily targetting a Leinster Final (with its handicap schedule the following year) more than a 3rd to 5th finish (just to get an easier slate of games in future).
Also, the SF4 can only include at most 3 from 3rd to 5th seeds, so 1 (and likely both) will come from the top 2 seeds.
If a 6th or 7th seed advances (3 of 4 games v 3rd to 5th seeds, like seeds 1 & 2's schedules), so be it.
Say, assume Group A is 1,2,6,7 and B is 3,4,5.
After all AvB (and 1v2; 6v7), the SF4 will likely be 1st from each group (1&3), the best 2nd (2 or 4) and next best (2,4 or 5).
Do you prefer the actual Proposal - lose 3 Group 1 games and advance to Lein QFs?" Obviously the likes of Kilkenny won't set out to come fourth on the grounds that it'd give them easier games the following year.
But if they do happen to come fourth, the reaction should be (as it was this year) - "we'll need to do significantly better next year". Not "at least we'll be okay next year when we'll have easier games", which is what your system would give them.
On the question that you finish with - I've left absolutely no doubt at all in my many posts on this topic so far that I absolutely don't like the proposal that's currently on the table.
But I'd still prefer it to yours.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4139 - 12/10/2026 19:54:04
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Replying To omahant: "For teams equal on pts, initial tie breakers could be:
1) head-to-head; and 2) stronger beginning seed." On point 2 - you'd then be accused of trying to preserve the old guard rather than letting somebody make a bit of a breakthrough.
Imagine the scenario - a lower seed (say seed 6, e.g. Kildare or Laois ) ends up on the same points as a higher seed (say seed 3, e.g. Dublin or Wexford) for the last qualification spot. These points include a draw against that seed 3 team, so the head-to-head is even. But then you end up kicking out that lower seed anyway, basically "because Dublin or Wexford are better than you anyway".
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4139 - 12/10/2026 23:08:51
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@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4134 - 12/10/2026 23:08:51
I used the seeding tie breaker as an offset to the higher seeds' tougher schedules (e.g. your seed 3 v seed 2).
Back to the schedule, with 3,4,5 v 1,2,6,7 - each team plays opponents with average seed 4 (fair, so far).
The issue is what to do with 1,2,6,7 who need another game. If uncompetitive high v low, then strong seeds keep their advantage, but I went with a better pairing 'handicap' (1v2, 6v7).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 13/10/2026 13:03:48
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The drum to bang on is that 4th in group A should travel to the group B winners in the quarter finals. Potentially a team on 3 wins coming up against a team without a win. Similar logic for the Joe Mac semi finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10099 - 13/10/2026 13:53:19
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Replying To omahant: "@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4134 - 12/10/2026 23:08:51
I used the seeding tie breaker as an offset to the higher seeds' tougher schedules (e.g. your seed 3 v seed 2).
Back to the schedule, with 3,4,5 v 1,2,6,7 - each team plays opponents with average seed 4 (fair, so far).
The issue is what to do with 1,2,6,7 who need another game. If uncompetitive high v low, then strong seeds keep their advantage, but I went with a better pairing 'handicap' (1v2, 6v7)." That may be the logic behind your seeding tiebreaker, but I'm still pointing out what a possible consequence of it would be.
Anyway, to be frank - I can't honestly see a proposal like yours ever getting to the table, never mind being passed. I'm more interested in seeing how the actual proposal fares, and if anybody comes forward with an alternative.
For what it's worth, if there has to be change, my own proposal would be:
- Two "split" groups of four, where each group would have either 1 or 2, either 3 or 4, either 5 or 6, and either 7 or 8.
- Three group games each, such that the two "weakest" teams (7 and 8) still get to play one of the two "strongest" teams (1 and 2) each year.
- Top of each group goes to a semi-final. Second and third go to quarter-final. Bottom of each group in a relegation play-off.
- Loser of relegation final to be replaced the following year by Joe McDonagh Cup winner, or McDonagh runner-up if Kerry happen to win it and go into Munster instead.
- Play-off between the losing semi-finalists to determine the third Leinster team to go to All-Ireland series.
For an example of how it might work, am looking at the 2025 table rather this year, as I really do consider 2026 an anomaly with Kilkenny as low as fourth. I don't think that will happen very often again. So, the 2025 championships might have given us these groups for this year:
Group A: Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Laois
Group B: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kildare
In Group A, either Antrim or Laois (or maybe both!) would make the knock-out stages, and the other one would still have a chance to stay in the championship and try the following year.
Much the same in Group B, where Kildare would have fancied their chances, especially if you consider they were on a high after winning the McDonagh Cup in '25 when these groups would have been formed, while Offaly were on a low after losing four games in that year's championship and having their only win over bottom-placed Antrim.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4139 - 13/10/2026 14:57:13
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Replying To legendzxix: "The drum to bang on is that 4th in group A should travel to the group B winners in the quarter finals. Potentially a team on 3 wins coming up against a team without a win. Similar logic for the Joe Mac semi finals." Yes, I agree - what to do with '4th in Group A'?
I see 3 choices:
1) Implement Proposal (awful, if '3 loss 4th v 3 win 5th')
2) Eliminate 4th (jeopardy, with 5th to SFs)
3) Give 4th a chance (if 4th/5th pts difference is 'within a range', then QF, maybe hosted by 5th - say, range <4 pts - e.g. if 4-0 or 6-2, 4th is out, 5th to SFs)
Regardless of choice above, 3rd v 6th in QF.
What's your preference - do you have another?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 13/10/2026 15:03:02
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@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4135 - 13/10/2026 14:57:13
I don't see my idea ever getting passed either - because it's too 'quirky' - but so is Leitrim/Down club championships.
When I post here, I generally present what I'd like, not necessarily what is likely to be approved.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 13/10/2026 15:50:29
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Replying To Pikeman96: "That may be the logic behind your seeding tiebreaker, but I'm still pointing out what a possible consequence of it would be.
Anyway, to be frank - I can't honestly see a proposal like yours ever getting to the table, never mind being passed. I'm more interested in seeing how the actual proposal fares, and if anybody comes forward with an alternative.
For what it's worth, if there has to be change, my own proposal would be:
- Two "split" groups of four, where each group would have either 1 or 2, either 3 or 4, either 5 or 6, and either 7 or 8.
- Three group games each, such that the two "weakest" teams (7 and 8) still get to play one of the two "strongest" teams (1 and 2) each year.
- Top of each group goes to a semi-final. Second and third go to quarter-final. Bottom of each group in a relegation play-off.
- Loser of relegation final to be replaced the following year by Joe McDonagh Cup winner, or McDonagh runner-up if Kerry happen to win it and go into Munster instead.
- Play-off between the losing semi-finalists to determine the third Leinster team to go to All-Ireland series.
For an example of how it might work, am looking at the 2025 table rather this year, as I really do consider 2026 an anomaly with Kilkenny as low as fourth. I don't think that will happen very often again. So, the 2025 championships might have given us these groups for this year:
Group A: Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Laois
Group B: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kildare
In Group A, either Antrim or Laois (or maybe both!) would make the knock-out stages, and the other one would still have a chance to stay in the championship and try the following year.
Much the same in Group B, where Kildare would have fancied their chances, especially if you consider they were on a high after winning the McDonagh Cup in '25 when these groups would have been formed, while Offaly were on a low after losing four games in that year's championship and having their only win over bottom-placed Antrim." Pikeman, you are a person who talks to alot of people. Have many of them said they thought the current proposal is a good one? Or even a better format than what we have currently?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20821 - 13/10/2026 16:06:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "The drum to bang on is that 4th in group A should travel to the group B winners in the quarter finals. Potentially a team on 3 wins coming up against a team without a win. Similar logic for the Joe Mac semi finals." If a team loses 3 from 3 under the current system they wouldn't be 4th. Probably the 5th and likely the 6th placed teams on the Leinster ladder would be ahead of them anyway.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20821 - 13/10/2026 16:09:43
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Replying To Viking66: "Pikeman, you are a person who talks to alot of people. Have many of them said they thought the current proposal is a good one? Or even a better format than what we have currently?" To be honest, the only ones in Wexford I've heard say "might not be too bad" are ones I'd consider amongst the "day tripper to Croke Park" type of supporter, who are thinking back to the so-called good old days when we used to be there regularly for a Leinster semi-final double-header. Doesn't seem to occur to them that the semi-finals (if we made them) might be played separately in places like Nowlan Park or Portlaoise!
Don't actually know the views of the Management Committee level of the County Board on it. All my regular contact there told me is that it was discussed briefly at a recent meeting and is to be further considered some other time, possibly at the full County Board meeting next week. I know he doesn't particularly like it himself, but he's only voice among many there.
However, I do know several people involved in hurling in Carlow and a few more in Kildare, and they're all in favour of it. As I've said before, they think it would be great to have the chance to stay in Leinster for longer rather than maybe dropping back to McDonagh level after a year or two or three, and they particularly like the chance of being able to play a "big" knockout match.
I've even pointed out to some that the "big" knockout match wouldn't be a whole lot different to the McDonagh finalists v 3rd in Leinster ones that we used to have, but they claim it would. I don't fully understand how or why.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4139 - 13/10/2026 16:56:30
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Replying To Pikeman96: "To be honest, the only ones in Wexford I've heard say "might not be too bad" are ones I'd consider amongst the "day tripper to Croke Park" type of supporter, who are thinking back to the so-called good old days when we used to be there regularly for a Leinster semi-final double-header. Doesn't seem to occur to them that the semi-finals (if we made them) might be played separately in places like Nowlan Park or Portlaoise!
Don't actually know the views of the Management Committee level of the County Board on it. All my regular contact there told me is that it was discussed briefly at a recent meeting and is to be further considered some other time, possibly at the full County Board meeting next week. I know he doesn't particularly like it himself, but he's only voice among many there.
However, I do know several people involved in hurling in Carlow and a few more in Kildare, and they're all in favour of it. As I've said before, they think it would be great to have the chance to stay in Leinster for longer rather than maybe dropping back to McDonagh level after a year or two or three, and they particularly like the chance of being able to play a "big" knockout match.
I've even pointed out to some that the "big" knockout match wouldn't be a whole lot different to the McDonagh finalists v 3rd in Leinster ones that we used to have, but they claim it would. I don't fully understand how or why." 3rd v 5th should be a better standard of contest. The danger of losing will be missing out on Group A, otherwise you would be getting those McDonagh finalists as opponents. And not one, but two of them!!
The old Leinster qualifier group was a GAA solution to a GAA problem. It worked reasonably well for what it was. There was a bit of the luck of the draw with that. With the planned format - the lower 2 in group A will put their A status on the line in the quarter finals.
Say Kilkenny are battling against Dublin for 2nd, losing and entering a quarter final is a potential banana skin. None of them will want to be caught up in the web of Group B hurling in championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10099 - 13/10/2026 21:04:57
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Replying To omahant: "@Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4135 - 13/10/2026 14:57:13
I don't see my idea ever getting passed either - because it's too 'quirky' - but so is Leitrim/Down club championships.
When I post here, I generally present what I'd like, not necessarily what is likely to be approved." That should be Leitrim and Cavan.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 14/10/2026 03:19:32
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Replying To legendzxix: "3rd v 5th should be a better standard of contest. The danger of losing will be missing out on Group A, otherwise you would be getting those McDonagh finalists as opponents. And not one, but two of them!!
The old Leinster qualifier group was a GAA solution to a GAA problem. It worked reasonably well for what it was. There was a bit of the luck of the draw with that. With the planned format - the lower 2 in group A will put their A status on the line in the quarter finals.
Say Kilkenny are battling against Dublin for 2nd, losing and entering a quarter final is a potential banana skin. None of them will want to be caught up in the web of Group B hurling in championship." Id say both Kilkenny and Dublin would be quietly confident they wouldn't lose a knockout game against Group B opponents.
Taking this years results, both Kilkenny and Dublin beat both Kildare and Wexford. Maybe, well hopefully, we will be better next year, but likely be they will both be better too.
And another factor to consider, would a week off really be better preparation for a knockout SF than winning a knockout QF? Momentum is huge in hurling.
The bottom line is that the system proposed is nearly identical to what we have had at u20 the last few years. The group games in group 1 of the u20 Leinster Championship have often had the feel of challenge games, and Ive been to 2 or 3 of them every year since the format came in, and watched others on clubber each year too.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20821 - 14/10/2026 10:46:01
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Replying To legendzxix: "3rd v 5th should be a better standard of contest. The danger of losing will be missing out on Group A, otherwise you would be getting those McDonagh finalists as opponents. And not one, but two of them!!
The old Leinster qualifier group was a GAA solution to a GAA problem. It worked reasonably well for what it was. There was a bit of the luck of the draw with that. With the planned format - the lower 2 in group A will put their A status on the line in the quarter finals.
Say Kilkenny are battling against Dublin for 2nd, losing and entering a quarter final is a potential banana skin. None of them will want to be caught up in the web of Group B hurling in championship." 3rd v 5th would be "a GAA solution to a GAA problem" too, and it wouldn't even be a very good solution.
Consider how 3, 4, 5 and 6 are the contest the quarter-finals. The reward for finishing third should be an "easier" quarter-final against sixth, rather than a more difficult one against fifth.
And then the other quarter-final of 4th v 6th would basically be to put through to a semi-final either the worst-performing team in Group A, or the worst qualifier of all.
As Viking points out, the proposal is a lot like the Leinster U20 Hurling Championship of the past few years, where the top four play each other and then all go through anyway. I've been to several of those group games too. Of course you like to win them, but overall, they're more like a useful run-out than a cut-and-thrust championship game.
And even if our lads do manage to beat Kilkenny (for example) in the group, there's a feeling of "doesn't really matter, because they (Kilkenny) will still be there in the knockouts anyway, and they might improve considerably in the meantime".
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4139 - 14/10/2026 11:15:17
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With McD All-Star team announced, I presume 7th to 12th teams under the Proposal, if approved, would be eligible in the future (not restricted to 9th to 12th, Group 3)?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 14/10/2026 13:18:40
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I can only defer to the feedback of you guys that the Group A will be like challenge games.
Without getting into detail on an alternative approach:
1. 2 even groups of 4 each. Same groups for 2 years, allowing fixtures to be reversed.
2. Top 2 from each group into phase 2 - Group 2A. Head to head result carrying over so play 2 crossover opponents.
3. Lower 2 from each group into phase 2 - Group 2B. Head to head result carrying over so play 2 crossover opponents.
2A top 2 into Leinster final.
2A lower 2 and 2B higher 2 into playoff semi finals, the winners of those into a playoff final for the All Ireland quarter final spot.
Briefly:
If Kilkenny and Wexford are playing in round 3 on 2 wins each, while both would already be through to 2A - there head to head result is the only result that would register in 2A so they'll have to go and win it.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10099 - 14/10/2026 13:39:38
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Replying To Pikeman96: "That may be the logic behind your seeding tiebreaker, but I'm still pointing out what a possible consequence of it would be.
Anyway, to be frank - I can't honestly see a proposal like yours ever getting to the table, never mind being passed. I'm more interested in seeing how the actual proposal fares, and if anybody comes forward with an alternative.
For what it's worth, if there has to be change, my own proposal would be:
- Two "split" groups of four, where each group would have either 1 or 2, either 3 or 4, either 5 or 6, and either 7 or 8.
- Three group games each, such that the two "weakest" teams (7 and 8) still get to play one of the two "strongest" teams (1 and 2) each year.
- Top of each group goes to a semi-final. Second and third go to quarter-final. Bottom of each group in a relegation play-off.
- Loser of relegation final to be replaced the following year by Joe McDonagh Cup winner, or McDonagh runner-up if Kerry happen to win it and go into Munster instead.
- Play-off between the losing semi-finalists to determine the third Leinster team to go to All-Ireland series.
For an example of how it might work, am looking at the 2025 table rather this year, as I really do consider 2026 an anomaly with Kilkenny as low as fourth. I don't think that will happen very often again. So, the 2025 championships might have given us these groups for this year:
Group A: Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Laois
Group B: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kildare
In Group A, either Antrim or Laois (or maybe both!) would make the knock-out stages, and the other one would still have a chance to stay in the championship and try the following year.
Much the same in Group B, where Kildare would have fancied their chances, especially if you consider they were on a high after winning the McDonagh Cup in '25 when these groups would have been formed, while Offaly were on a low after losing four games in that year's championship and having their only win over bottom-placed Antrim." I don't like the mismatch 'Pot 1 v 4, Seeds 1/2 v 7/8' in your proposal.
You might think an 8-team version of my idea is fairer than the 7-team variety? - i.e. 1,2,7,8 v 3,4,5,6 (all play a 'seed total' of 18, an equal average 4.5 per opponent).
Top 4 of 8 to SFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 14/10/2026 13:53:52
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How can jeopardy exist in Leinster Group A & B?
How about ALL teams with a minimum '1 point average per game' advance to the Leinster KO?
With such 'variable' KO team quantity, QF byes (as needed) go to highest teams in A, with QFs then hosted by highest from those others qualified.
There has been much resistance to a 'top 4' advancing from Munster - but I'd argue with a '1 pt average' - it wouldn't be bad if ALL 5 advanced with 4 pts (enough jeopardy in getting there).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3599 - 14/10/2026 14:17:00
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Replying To Pikeman96: "That may be the logic behind your seeding tiebreaker, but I'm still pointing out what a possible consequence of it would be.
Anyway, to be frank - I can't honestly see a proposal like yours ever getting to the table, never mind being passed. I'm more interested in seeing how the actual proposal fares, and if anybody comes forward with an alternative.
For what it's worth, if there has to be change, my own proposal would be:
- Two "split" groups of four, where each group would have either 1 or 2, either 3 or 4, either 5 or 6, and either 7 or 8.
- Three group games each, such that the two "weakest" teams (7 and 8) still get to play one of the two "strongest" teams (1 and 2) each year.
- Top of each group goes to a semi-final. Second and third go to quarter-final. Bottom of each group in a relegation play-off.
- Loser of relegation final to be replaced the following year by Joe McDonagh Cup winner, or McDonagh runner-up if Kerry happen to win it and go into Munster instead.
- Play-off between the losing semi-finalists to determine the third Leinster team to go to All-Ireland series.
For an example of how it might work, am looking at the 2025 table rather this year, as I really do consider 2026 an anomaly with Kilkenny as low as fourth. I don't think that will happen very often again. So, the 2025 championships might have given us these groups for this year:
Group A: Kilkenny, Wexford, Antrim, Laois
Group B: Galway, Dublin, Offaly, Kildare
In Group A, either Antrim or Laois (or maybe both!) would make the knock-out stages, and the other one would still have a chance to stay in the championship and try the following year.
Much the same in Group B, where Kildare would have fancied their chances, especially if you consider they were on a high after winning the McDonagh Cup in '25 when these groups would have been formed, while Offaly were on a low after losing four games in that year's championship and having their only win over bottom-placed Antrim." Just to say, I agree with this. In your example where Kerry happen to win the Joe Mac - the Joe Mac should reduce to 5 for a year, while Munster increases to 6. The Leinster championship should always remain at 8. The relegation final loser granted a relegation reprieve when a Munster county wins the Joe Mac.
The main reason this format might not find favour with the powers that be is that the 4 power houses being in opposite groups means they are not playing each other as often as they might like. It's got to be a big influence behind the Nickey Brennan proposal where the top 4 are in the same group.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10099 - 14/10/2026 16:30:18
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