Comments made in the thread on Antrim GAA got me thinking about the organisation being 'appealing' to the Unionist community and how simple people seem to think it should be to extend the hand to them and 'hurling on the lawn of Stormont' and sure isn't it a great game and all that!
Yet, anytime I watch northern shows like 'Nolan' etc and the issue of say disputes over sports funding or the likes comes up, the main issue is not 'the games' at all for its 'just a sport' but rather the historic icons who surround the GAA whom we venerate as hero's like my own Marshal de Camp Patrick Sarsfield, naming clubs and parks after such Irish heros!

We have all heard of Belfast being refered to as the 'Sleeping Giant' of the GAA?....yet nobody says what makes it so!! Does it mean more Nationalists will play the games, or, I think it means Unionists finally participating in the games!....Is that it?

Now a lot of nordie posters will tell of protestants/unionists, whom they know who play/support GAA and indeed I know one northern protestant myself who is bonkers about his club and county!....yet we all know these folks are the exception by a very long shot!

So how does the GAA seek to include a whole community who are totally at odds with the organisation? How does the GAA grow in unionist areas in a place like Belfast where the home stadium is named after a Dubliner who supped with the Germans during WWI to destroy British rule in Ireland?!

I know that everyone on here would love to have everyone on this Island from all communities into our games and for it to be accessable to all, but, the obstacles the GAA pose for Unionists are too many (and bear in mind that people say that sport should be non-political and all that), such that a kid from Sandy Row joins:
A club called say: O'Donovan Rossas
Plays in a park called: Roger Casements
Stands for an Anthem: Amhrain na Bhfiann
Faces a flag: Irish National Flag
Language: A promoted language that is foreign to him.

So think about that, rather than just trying to tell them hurling is a great game and they should love it like we do because its great!.....I suspect that many love it just like we do and get hooked on the skill of catching a glimpse of hurlers on UTV just the same as you and I do or whatever....but the symbols of the organisation are alien to them and maybe even hostile to them!

So given my points above, what do you think can be done to entice unionists to join and participate in the GAA and its games?

Its difficult, to answer and requires thought as we are all well aware that compromise is the name of the game up north and every badge, colour, name, tune, etc means the polar opposite to either side and just trying to tell people 'its a great game' is laughable!

So what say you to 'Edward Carsons GAA Club' playing a home game at 'Duke of Edinburgh Park' to the strains of 'God Save the Queen'?....or, one with a cross community name....'Red Hand GAA Club' playing at 'Good Friday Park' to the strains of an 'Irelands Call' equivalent?

Maybe, Im biting off more than I can chew in asking this, but just putting it out there as I would love to know what we could do (if anything/do we want to at all?) to wake this 'Sleeping Giant' in Belfast we forever hear about!

On a side note, heard on Setanta documentary the US Anthem played before NY championship game and wondered is the British Anthem played the same way before London games in Ruslip?

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 13/05/2013 20:26:42    1383381

Good luck with this one snuff. Threads on North/South, Catholic/Protestant, Nationalist/Unionist issues usually go down so well around here.
Anyone taking bets on how long it will take before the thread is shut down? I reckon about lunchtime on Wednesday.

anfearbeag (Meath) - Posts: 1134 - 13/05/2013 20:43:29    1383399

Don't understand why this even has to happen. There are some sports where both side could have a common interest i.e. rugby and soccer, while there are other sports where one side might have little or no interest (is cricket big with unionists in the north?) and I don't see why this should be changed. In a modern pluralist society it's not compulsory for everyone to share the same interests, and when you consider the very different traditions of both sides its just not practical, logical or sensible to try achieve some fairyland where suddenly we all become GAA fans.

There will always be individuals who can get over their "tribal" identity and fair play to them, but it's silly to expect the unionist community as a whole to ever have any interest in the GAA. And sure why would they? Would we expect them to make the Orange Order more nationalist friendly?

Live and let live, each to their own, etc. etc. etc.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3148 - 13/05/2013 20:48:20    1383405

You talk a good game snuf and if there a Nobel Peace Prize for effort, hope and positivity I would award you it right now. I am not insulting you or denying your integrity but there is a massive dose of naivety in your post. As you admit yourself you can't separate the politics here and HS mods might not be prepared to engage in such a debate or allow certain views or posts. Having said that I will give my opinion without resorting to an out and out political discussion:
In an ideal world EVERY sport should be open to EVERY person but it doesn't work like that and the GAA is no different to other sports and we shouldn't try to isolate the GAA and say that it is. Certain creeds, certain social classes, certain sexes play certain sports and have done since the dawn of time. In these islands rugby is played largely by a middle class element with a few notable exceptions in places like South Wales and parts of Munster where working class people also play it. In the North rugby has always been a middle class Protestant game with little inroads made into the Catholic, Nationalist community; that is the way it is.
To get some understanding you have to go back to the foundations of the GAA. The Gaelic Athletic Association was founded in 1884 by men "who wished to foster a spirit of earnest nationality (quote from GAA historian T.E. O'Sullivan) and as a means of "saving 1000's of young Irishmen from becoming West Britons" (T.E. O'Sullivan). Indeed the R.I.C. at the time of the GAA's foundation deemed that it had been founded by the Irish Republican Brotherhood to further foment the idea of Home Rule for Ireland; in other words the GAA was totally political; it was Irish; it was Nationalist and it was prepared to ultimately engage in conflict for it's cultural and political ideals; despite the efforts of some on this island in 2013 to deny and ignore it this was the GAA's roots.
Now if we transform this into the North the GAA is the total antithosis of Unionism, the polar opposite of what it believes in and you just cannot in a whimsy expect the GAA or Unionists to change their history and cultural identity to suit some trendy modern luvvy, duvvy idealism. The GAA is open to all but it cannot become British/Ulster Loyalist to fit in with those who pursue other agendas or then the GAA just becomes hollow and false. We cannot pretend to be something we are not; the GAA cannot deny it's Irish, Nationalist core.
Finally many Unionists know exactly what the GAA is and most of them have no interest and never will and that's fair enough. About a third of Unionists look at the GAA and see a sporting organisation; another third look and see an Irish, Nationalist political organisation that plays sport and the last third simply views the GAA as the sporting wing of the IRA. The GAA is viewed with suspicion and downright hostility by Unionism/Loyalism some of whom virtually declared war on the organisation in the North and launched 100's of attacks on it over the past 40 years. That period hopefully is over and I repeat the GAA in my opinion should be open and inclusive to ALL but at the same time you can't put wings on a fish and call it a bird. The GAA is what it is and we should NEVER be ashamed of or try to deny and cover that up.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9817 - 13/05/2013 21:32:15    1383448

I was wondering if Unionists could buy into or identify with the intercounty & parochial rivalries which are the bedrock of our association's appeal & competitions?

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 13/05/2013 21:32:27    1383449

I hope that this thread can remain open. Snuf's thread is important and very worthy of sensible and reasonable discussion. I will not post anything to annoy or wind anyone up on this.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9817 - 13/05/2013 21:58:22    1383483

As laudable as all this is in theory' but the reality is another thing. With extreme protestantism embracing pieces of ancient Ireland that suits, Cuchulainn (minus) the Hurley stick, the red hand, Finn McCool et all, things underlining 'Ulster's' separate ancient identity. But even that is selective complete with its own political agenda. Would a General Schomberg's GAA playing Lucan Sarsfields be a re run of the Boyne, both on and off the pitch? Probably.

I don't think the GAA has the stomach for all this belligerance and aggro we've enough hassle as it is. A one sided compromise never works? Can't see it happening not sure I would want to either.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4953 - 14/05/2013 08:46:05    1383497

I like arocks comment, its based on reality rather than the fanciable. What is to be gained by effectively diluting GAA culture in order to attract a few new converts, will it just make us feel better about ourselves, a bit of backslapping and handwringing in committees up and down the country, sure look at us aren;t we great. EVERYONE is welcome to participate in the GAA, but they have to accept us as we are, warts and all.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 10:01:14    1383518

Culturally, the gap is wide & while there have been gestures, PSNI GAA team, hockey, rugby & cricket would be the sports of choice for the unionist people. I would agree with the sentiment that we would have to give up a lot to make the GAA palatable let alone attractive for them, all you have to do is read some of the threads about people calling each other Brit this & Brit that to realise that while the overt violence & hatred has died away somewhat, culturally both sides are far apart.
Kevin McAleer did a series recently outlining his experiences engaging with the Ulster Scots people in Ulster, and I use the term Ulster intentionally as some of them live in Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan as well, he had to confess that although many of the people he met lived close to where he was raised he knew nothing about them.
From the Republic it can be hard to take on board just how separate both communities are. For me the best thing both sides can do is keep chipping away at the hurt, mistrust & bigotry that still exists rather than big grand gestures that will curry no favours with the grassroots.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 14/05/2013 10:15:29    1383528

Take politics and religion out of our games

They have no place in the modern GAA

All of a sudden

You just have 30 men on a pitch kicking / hitting a ball about the place from different parts of the island wearing different coloured jerseys

That's the main issue with Northern GAA - politics and religion plays too much of a role

GAA is OUR thing / Soccer is YOUR thing (etc)

Tis a pity but until the Northern Ireland evolves into a more rounded and liberal place the division of us vs. them will keep people away from playing sports

I have no doubt that it'll happen one day but a couple more generations will need to snuff it first

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 14/05/2013 10:21:04    1383532

The GAA is an Irish organisation and it is something that we are all very proud of. However the GAA has changed over time to reflect the attitudes of its members and society as a whole. For example, we no longer have a ban on our members playing 'foreign' sports, we no longer have a ban on members of security forces in the north playing the game, we opened up Croke Park to other sports when it was necessary and probably would do so again. Whether you agree or disagree with any of these is secondary as the majority of the association wanted to get rid of them. These changes, I would suggest, in theory at least, should have made the GAA more attractive to the unionist community (at least it should have, for rational people, eliminated some of their grievances about the association).

In my personal opinion the GAA should also remove the catholic church as official patron of the association. The GAA as a fledgling association may have needed the approval of the church (though early relations where fractious at best) but at this moment in time, it is not necessary. The GAA is in a stronger position than the church right now and we should get rid of them. The RC church PLC has been found guilty of the most wicked, heinous, nefarious crimes ever committed on this island and has only offered a pathetic, veiled, mealy-mouthed apology. Yet every year on ALl-Ireland final day, we welcome a representative of the church to take pre-eminence on our biggest occasions. We are moving toward a secular country (not half quick enough for my liking) and we should end relationships with divisive, apartheid-enhancing organizations such as RC church PLC.

I have no problem with playing the national anthem before games. However, it is not played before very game. In all the school games, club underage and adult (league and championship) only twice has the national anthem being played (I play junior B by the way). In fact, for most GAA games it is not played at all. It begs the question, should we bother with it for any game? In my opinion, it probably should be part of the ceremony on All-Ireland final day (or other very big-match days), along with parade of teams, meeting dignitaries etc. When it is played on an LP record (recorded decades ago) and most players are warming up and spectators talking to each other and playing with their phones, it almost combines pointless ceremony-doing something for the sake of it.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/05/2013 10:26:04    1383537

Excellent post Ulsterman

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 14/05/2013 10:41:08    1383544

All very good replies!
I am totally aware of how naieve my comments are indeed. I was looking to play devils advocate with myself and throw the ideas out there to see what the flavour of opinion was and it has turned out as I expected.

The bottom line Im reading is: 'You have your thing and we have our thing and your welcome to play, but toe the line'!
I understand that totally!
The GAA cannot deny its past nor should it dilute it either.

The ideas may be noble but let sleeping dogs lie!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 14/05/2013 10:42:31    1383547

"Kevin McAleer did a series recently outlining his experiences engaging with the Ulster Scots people in Ulster"

Saw one of those programmes. "You say 'no' & we say 'naw'". Yep, that's a major cultural difference right there, alright!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 14/05/2013 11:49:31    1383597

keeper7
County: Longford
Posts: 1153

1383597
"Kevin McAleer did a series recently outlining his experiences engaging with the Ulster Scots people in Ulster"

Saw one of those programmes. "You say 'no' & we say 'naw'". Yep, that's a major cultural difference right there, alright!
_______________________
You say "door" & we say "Doooor". Yes indeed, its a 'special' langauge.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 11:59:14    1383606

Its a real catch-22. Do you call the Unionists bluff and remove any badges/emblems/names which may be deemed offensive in the hope that suddenly wee Billy McFrazer or little George Goodmarch will pick up the hurl or football but at the same time diluting the very fabric of the organisation, knowing that it probably won't have the desired effect. Or do you take the approach that we are what we are in regards to being a perceived political sporting organisation and that we may never appeal to the 'other side' and just get on with it?

At the end of the day things like standing to Amhrán na bhFiann under the Irish Flag aren't what made me play the games or be involved in the GAA and I personally don't need these to be reminded of my Irishness. However, we shouldn't rush to remove such integral parts of our games trying to appease those who may never be appeased.

I think its all Devs/Michael Collins (delete as per view point) fault for signing the treaty way back when in which case the catch-22 suddenly becomes a catch-1922.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/05/2013 11:59:58    1383607

It was a pretty good question to ask snuff and unusually for HS, it got mature responses.

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 12:06:20    1383612

In reality, from a unionist's perspective, the gaa might not appear all that welcoming. For instance, how many of you would fancy taking up bowls or cricket? And those are international sports, imagine how the gaa must appear on the outside looking in. We have clubs named after guys like Sarsfield etc, not to mention the regular reports of sectarian stuff that gets wheeled out at games, and that simply sends out a very bad message. Would we be so supportive of Manchester United for example if they were the Manchester Cromwells? How many irish people support rangers? If we want people to integrate then we should look to ourselves first and foremost, ban clubs being named after people with historic involvement in such issues, make example of people caught using sectarian abuse, and similarly those who pretence sectarian abuse. Make efforts to force it out of the game and people will respond.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 14/05/2013 12:15:04    1383614

................well, until now anyway!

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 14/05/2013 12:30:30    1383629

Yes, we need to tone down our political image, put the Union Jack along side the tricolour at all games, and play Ireland's call.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8746 - 14/05/2013 12:32:03    1383632