In today's Sunday Independent Mike McGurn responds to where Bernard Jackman in his new book Blue Blood talks of Brendan Murphy being offered a contract with Leinster - good brief article on page 5 sport. McGurn basically says that it is a far greater bridge to build - between GAA and Rugby - than initially thought.

There are of number of interesting topics in the piece BUT most importantly he is quoted as saying "...teams are obviously too caught up with fitness training. They're obsessed with weights and MOST OF THEM ARE DOING THE WRONG TYPE OF WEIGHT TRAINING ANYWAY" Now I have heard McGurn say this before but he has never elaborated on the point and told us what the correct type of weights are.

I am not looking for a fitness program but if he can come out and say that GAA players are so ill-advised even though they put huge effort into researching programs then it's not a matter of tweaking the reps, sets and machine but it must be something far more fundamental to allow him make such a sweeping statement.

Question is: can anyone tell us what he means when he reckons our top athletes (remember he was fitness coach with international rules team) are doing the wrong weights?

wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 21/11/2010 14:02:03    820057

I'd severely doubt he'd come out and suggest what inter-county players should be doing when he's with Armagh

our_fella (UK) - Posts: 119 - 21/11/2010 16:27:54    820149

just an observation, if you take the vast vast amount of esp intercounty players, measure their height to weight index, most are overweight, due to too much gym work if you ask me. people comment on alot of footballers lacking the basic skills, as they put too much time into gettin big so as to look physical

dmac (Derry) - Posts: 23 - 21/11/2010 20:15:47    820304

He has certainly raised an interesting question, though. For a long time I've thought that some of the highly paid "experts" that are involved with many county teams actually don't know much about the demands of hurling and gaelic football. From what I can gather there's been very little research done on GAA sports in terms of the physical preparation of players. Most of the "experts" are coming from a sports science background where their expertise is often in rugby, soccer, athletics etc. Likewise, there are are people offering nutritional advice eventhough their own qualifications are flimsy. On that score, I'm afraid that it won't be long before a GAA player tests positive for a banned substance because of some dodgy supplement.

football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 21/11/2010 20:17:32    820308

i think reading between the lines the article deflects critcism from its author re the poor preparation of the irish rules team. mr mcgurn who by airing somewhat subjective views regarding a skill base is creating a hypothethical question which he answers himself and in doing so creates an air of authority and hence the need for an expert like him to solve said question. this is the man who turns gold to lead see irish rugby b dunne armagh and the rules. we have enough talent and expertise within the gaa without the need for superstar gurus with little or no knowledge about our own games.

reddoctor (Tyrone) - Posts: 1241 - 21/11/2010 20:33:22    820327

Personally, i feel that there is far too much gym work going on in gaa circles. i tried it for the last few years and felt physically strong but with pure lung capacity and lack of fitness, so this year, ive changed it around, i got a bike and do a 30/40k cycle on the weekend and try and do 2, 5 mile runs twice a week, and a good bit of core work and im feeling the benefits of it already.

tony_smyth (Galway) - Posts: 29 - 22/11/2010 10:40:13    820496

That's hard going tony_smyth, specially around Galway at this time of year. I'm reminded tho' of a comment Alan Ball World Cup winner with England made once...he said his Dad wouldn't let him cycle as a youngster. Running was more suited to football. Seems fitness regimes and dietary recommendations are transient anyway.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1066 - 22/11/2010 11:12:04    820533

Mike McGurn is without doubt the most high profile strength and condtioning coach in Ireland. He has voiced his opinion on several occasions within the last 12 months regarding is concerns on the topic of lack of correct practice in terms of physical preperation within the GAA.
I have never seen a programme that Mike has desgined for a GAA team/player but I find it difficult to understand just where GAA players are going wrong as he says.
There has never been as much infromation available to coaches and players on this topic and I understand that the vast majority of this infromation has no place within the GAA and would be more suited to the world of bodybuilding.
I would agree with the fact that there are a lot of misinformaed GAA players following the wrong type of programme. But I would also argue that within the GAA, especially at intercounty level, the physical preparation is of a high standard when compared to professional sport.
So is Mike saying we in the GAA are now spending too much time in the gym and not enough time on basic skill development or is he saying the entire programmes are flawed?
I feel if Mike has the guts to come and and make such a rash statement then he should provide us with examples of what and where we are going wrong.

FAO: Tony Smyth,

Just had a read at your messege. I would like to know what kind of gym programme you were on for the last few years to try and figure out just why you feel you had a lack of fitness.
Where you doing purely weight training alone and if so to what frequecey, intensity and duration? Also I would question the massive shift you have made to your progamme for this year. 30-40k cycles and 10 miles of running per week, will this improve performace? In my opinon, no.
I feel there is a time and place of building a 'base' of aerobic fitness but would much perfer this to be done through interval training that can be adapted throughout the year to suit the phases of training that you are in. Im not a fan of long moderate intensity exercise for GAA players and here is one of the reasons why.




In 1996 and Japenese scientist named Dr. Izumi Tabata carried out a study on the effects on high intesity interval training Vs Moderate instesity endurance taining for team sports .

In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine (20 seconds of best possible effort with 10 seconds rest repeated 6-8 times), five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.



So 4 mintues of training per day improved anaerobic capacity by 28% yet and hour of work at moderate intensity showed no improvement in anaeorbic capacity and it also showed more of an effect on aerobic capacity. Thats my rant over. Food for thought.

FitnessGuru (Cavan) - Posts: 20 - 22/11/2010 11:45:55    820560

Interesting to note that Mike McGurn will present at a coaching conference in donegal in december, according to the website Mike will discuss issues related to building powerful bodies for Gaelic Football, maybe here he will enlighten us all what we should be doing...!!!

gaanewboy (Donegal) - Posts: 2 - 22/11/2010 15:29:51    820789

To Guru

In 1996 and Japenese scientist named Dr. Izumi Tabata carried out a study on the effects on high intesity interval training Vs Moderate instesity endurance taining for team sports .

In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine (20 seconds of best possible effort with 10 seconds rest repeated 6-8 times), five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.



So 4 mintues of training per day improved anaerobic capacity by 28% yet and hour of work at moderate intensity showed no improvement in anaeorbic capacity and it also showed more of an effect on aerobic capacity. Thats my rant over. Food for thought.
_____________________


There are many 'schools of thought', some old school, some hedge school, on strength and conditioninig in GAA but with no real published studies to back these up - S&C seems to be in its infancy as far as GAA is concerned. Dr. Kawasaki Mitzubishi's report is not carried out in the context of GAA sports and until someone carries out extensive validated research , we are all comparing apple to oranges. I think Mr. McGurn is buidling an air of superiority around himself by higlighting "issues" but not coming out and stating the actual flaws in the training techniques. (Although he is likely to be right in alot of cases - god knows I've seen teams running half marathons and dead lifting transport boxes the weekend before c'ship matches)
It hasn't been mentioned, but I was always under the impression that the no. 1 objective, above all others, for S&C in field sports, is to try and keep players injury free and correct any inherent imbalances in each individual player? Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm off the transport box generation unfortunately

Con Cavan (Cavan) - Posts: 894 - 22/11/2010 15:33:00    820793

I've actually heard this before were a local rugby coach came to a club in the preseason to help a few lads with some programmes. Basically his position was that GAA players focus on heavy weight training such as bench pressing and boasting how much they can bench, which has no benefits whatsoever for a gaelic footballer/ hurler. The rugby guys (and any rugby players can correct me on this) focus on weight training such as squats and pull-ups as this builds strength around the core and upper legs which is of much more benefit to players in an athletic sport.

stringbean (Tyrone) - Posts: 134 - 22/11/2010 19:16:06    821036

gaanewboy id advise all you hard up southern boys to keep your pounds sorry did i say british pounds i meant euros in your pockets rather than pay a pile of doe for a half assed collection of anecdoteal evidence presented superbly no doubt but of actually of no significance. youd be better off walking to donegal town from the rosses carrying one of your teammates drinking a can of porter wearing a well insulated aran jumper (climacool) and all that tha listening to these so called gurus. poopycock.

reddoctor (Tyrone) - Posts: 1241 - 22/11/2010 19:20:36    821042

stringbean
County: Tyrone
Posts: 4

821036 I've actually heard this before were a local rugby coach came to a club in the preseason to help a few lads with some programmes. Basically his position was that GAA players focus on heavy weight training such as bench pressing and boasting how much they can bench, which has no benefits whatsoever for a gaelic footballer/ hurler. The rugby guys (and any rugby players can correct me on this) focus on weight training such as squats and pull-ups as this builds strength around the core and upper legs which is of much more benefit to players in an athletic sport.
____________________________________

Bench pressing is a core exercise, as are squats and pull-ups.

But I agree with you, GAA players lower body strength is very poor in relation to rugby players. I was in the gym earlier and there was a GAA-head squatting 30kg for about 20 reps!!! What's that going to acheive? Absolutely nothing.

The difference in the ability and knowledge of GAA coaches about Strength & Conditioning in comparison to rugby coaches is massive.

GAA coaches need to look up programs such as "Starting Strength" and take it from there.

3inarow08 (Kerry) - Posts: 2455 - 22/11/2010 21:39:49    821209

"GAA-head squatting 30kg for about 20 reps!!! What's that going to acheive? Absolutely nothing"

That statement is a great example of someone talking about something they know nothing about.

Con (Louth) - Posts: 511 - 23/11/2010 10:14:33    821268

Who is this fellow McGurn? What county?

Real Kerry Fan (None) - Posts: 2957 - 23/11/2010 10:23:34    821276

Mike is Director of Strength and Conditioning in Armagh and works with all their teams in both football and hurling right down to the development squads. He also was involved with the International Rules team under Sean Boylan in 2008 and this year under Tohill.

Hi statements I believe are in relation to his belief that we are training too much in the gyms and on specific fitness and neglecting to train with the ball on sports specific skill and work the conditioning in to that side of the training.

When he refers to the wrong type of weight training I can only imagine that he believes it is not functional and serves no purpose and also that is it is geared towards building strength and no emphasis on power development which is what footballers and Hurlers need to be powerful.

sportinguru (Dublin) - Posts: 7 - 23/11/2010 11:12:53    821300

Anyone got a link to the piece in the paper?

blu (Down) - Posts: 1240 - 23/11/2010 11:15:27    821303

guru, thanks for the reply. i got a programme of a fitness guy in the parish and it was something like this 3 times a week from september to janaury.
Bench 3 sets+Cable rows,Pull downs+Shoulder press,Squats+Leg curls, Dips+Barbell curls in super sets and Core work of 2-1 min planks on each side and on saturday i did,
10mins row, 10mins run, 10mins bike for fitness. I did this religiously for the last 3 years during the same period and to be honest i did feel strong and i didnt tear anything or pulled any muscle, but i felt my fitness was lacking.

tony_smyth (Galway) - Posts: 29 - 23/11/2010 12:13:34    821341

Con
County: Louth
Posts: 379

"GAA-head squatting 30kg for about 20 reps!!! What's that going to acheive? Absolutely nothing"

That statement is a great example of someone talking about something they know nothing about.
_______________________________________________

How have you any idea who I am or what I know about??? Do you know my education/qualifications, my background, my training history? In fact, do you know anything about me?

Explain to me, and everyone on this forum, what benefits squatting a light weight for numerous repititions has for a GAA player? Or for anyone for that matter. And if you can find any, I'll dispel every one of them and prove you wrong. But there are no benefits, so I don't expect you to reply.

If you don't reply you'll only be shown up as a WUM.

3inarow08 (Kerry) - Posts: 2455 - 23/11/2010 12:14:01    821342

tony_smyth
County: Galway
Posts: 24

guru, thanks for the reply. i got a programme of a fitness guy in the parish and it was something like this 3 times a week from september to janaury.
Bench 3 sets+Cable rows,Pull downs+Shoulder press,Squats+Leg curls, Dips+Barbell curls in super sets and Core work of 2-1 min planks on each side and on saturday i did,
10mins row, 10mins run, 10mins bike for fitness. I did this religiously for the last 3 years during the same period and to be honest i did feel strong and i didnt tear anything or pulled any muscle, but i felt my fitness was lacking.
___________________________________

During the off-season you're not going to be as fit. Off-season is for getting stronger. Pre-season is for getting fitter.

3 times a week is perfect for gym work. A Mon/Wed/Fri or a Tue/Thur/Sat split work best as it gives your body optimal time to recover in between sessions as well as two days at the end of the week so that you're fresh for the next week.

As for the program, it's not bad as it's a full body workout. Beginners (those with less than a year of weights behind them) should always do a full body workout. After that, if you really want to, you can start isolating muscle groups. But full-body workouts are still of greater benefit until you reach an advanced stage (5 years or more into weights).

The main criticisms I have about the program are that there is too many exercises in it, as well as the use of weight machines. In my opinion, every beginner, or those looking to get stronger doing the off-season, should do a linear progression workout, such as Starting Strength. In this program, you only use a barbell, completing compound movements (squat, bench press, deadlift, shoulder press and power clean). If you wished to do some extra assistance work, compound bodyweight exercises such as pull-ups, chin-ups, dips and press-ups are recommended. Have a look at the below link for the program:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

3inarow08 (Kerry) - Posts: 2455 - 23/11/2010 12:33:11    821362