i wonder how many out there would either arkle or kauto star the greatest jumper of all time.
kauto star is getting close 2 emulating the great arkle.
any opinions.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 14/02/2010 16:55:15    560993

arkle for me different class even though kauto is up there . Denman will still win the gold cup.

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 15/02/2010 13:44:34    561703

dellboypolecat.
u are in cukoo land if u think denman is going 2 bt kauto now... sorry hee hee.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 15/02/2010 17:05:56    562047

ta32
County: Tyrone

Denman will walk it 11/4

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 15/02/2010 17:45:17    562128

Im sure Denman will improve for the 4 weeks hard work that Nicholls will put into him, he even said in his book that he has to gallop him hard the day before his races to have him truly fit. It looks like he could be wearing cheekpieces for the Gold Cup too as Nicholls thinks he is not putting it all in. Saying all that I cant see him beating Kauto if the ground is anyway good...The biggest challenge could be from Imperial Commander...

gianfranco (Offaly) - Posts: 100 - 18/02/2010 09:09:30    565114

Arkle v Kauto a no contest. If neither Arkle nor Flyingbolt had existed then Mill house would have won at least 3 Gold Cups and people would be comparing him with Kauto. The handicapping system had to be changed because Arkle was so good. As I said a no contest.

lochgarmanabu (Wexford) - Posts: 1022 - 18/02/2010 12:04:18    565306

Kauto hasn't ever carried 12-7 to victory plus he only competes in two or three races in a season. Therefore I think he is along way off ever equaling the exploits of the greatest NH race horse Arkle.

Squid

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 18/02/2010 12:12:06    565317

Ferenc Puskas or Christiano Ronaldo?
Michael Phelps or Mark Spitz?
Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis?
Christy Ring or DJ Carey?

Age will have the biggest bearing on most replies to this thread. Now I've no problem with people debating the relative merits of each horse and discussing a theoretical race between the two. Nobody can be proven right or wrong as we'll never witness a race between the two.

But more often than not, the Arkle -vs- Kauto Star debate induces the whole handicapping of racehorses debate! Now Kauto Star at his peak was rated 193 by the BHB (2009 King George) and 191 by Timeform for the same race and Arkle at his peak was rated 212 by Timeform. That makes Arkle 21 pounds better than Kauto Star on Timeform figures. I simply cannot have that! If a racehorse ever lived that could have given Kauto Star 21 pounds and still finish alongsides him in last year's King George, then he must have been the reincarnation of Pegasus, i.e. a racehorse with wings. The Timeform ratings from back then are flawed if you ask me, I could believe it if Arkle was a 197 or a 198 but a 212 is too far!

Plus the handicapping of racehorses is a rare branch of mathematics in my opinion. The whole principal of the idea is based on a weight-to-lengths ratio. Versatility, longevity and consistency are not rewarded. Some horses are better built to carry weight. But 12st 7lbs and 11lbs could come one and the same to one horse but to another it could almost break their back. Similiarly, some horses like to pull up when they are in front of all other horses whereas others like to run away from the herd. So the way ratings are awarded is perhaps flawed as a whole too. One example I like to use is Dubai Millenium and Sea The Stars, two very outstanding colts in their own right. Dubai Millenium rated 139, Sea The Stars rated 138, RPR ratings. Now was Dubai Millenium a pound better than Sea The Stars? Not at all! What he did in March 2000 was visually stunning but his superiority over STS is based solely on that performance. Sea The Stars ran 135+ all throughout his 3yo career over a range of trips.

Loyal2TheRoyal (Meath) - Posts: 4522 - 19/02/2010 12:13:12    566627

Loyal yes Arkle was that horse. Arkle would have Kauto off the bit and making mistakes by half way. In fact I would say Mill House was a better horse than Kauto. In 2007 Turpin Green was 3rd in the Gold Cup 5 lengths behind and to me that says something about the standard of 3 mile chasers around nowadays and if you have a look at the other horses behind you will appreciate what I am saying. In general the opposition at 3m2f nowadays is very poor as most of the better horses are non stayers. I accept Kauto is a good horse and I would like him to win again this year but that will be the end of the road when the current crop of novices come through.

lochgarmanabu (Wexford) - Posts: 1022 - 19/02/2010 14:12:14    566930

Arkle was a one off, raced against all sorts, in handicaps carrying top weight, and still won.

A few years ago I did a bet on the Gold Cup, Denman at 9/4. I reckoned Denman would run Kauto star into the ground. It did.

If it had stayed free from injury, I believe denman was the better horse.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 19/02/2010 19:42:34    567519

i also backed denman in the gold cup of 2008.
the year before that he destroyed th r.s.a field, i knew he was a great horse then
but sadly the relentless galloping we once saw of the tank, is no more.
kauto star is the kitty now ,. and after this year he will be remebered the greatest chaser of all time.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 19/02/2010 20:20:20    567549

Kauto star and denman, Best Mate and the others, I feel the hqndicappers are right.

Arkle was in a class of its own.

After Arkle, we can all debate the merits of the rest.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 19/02/2010 20:40:44    567571

Arkle was simply a freak in the racing world and most likely there will never be another.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 19/02/2010 20:59:43    567590

I don't think he was LochGarmanAbu! I don't think any racehorse would have beaten Kauto Star at Kempton Park last December off level weights, let alone give him a stone and a half.

Kauto Star is no machine, he's not going to run thirty plus lengths away from every field he faces. Turpin Green had promised a run look like that right up until Gold Cup day that year where he eventually produced it. I know a few people who were very keen on him each-way before the race. Kauto Star is a horse who has been called all sort of names, was supposedly finished at least three times by now but each time he bounced back better than ever. Lets not forget, after 23 racecourse chase starts, he's never finished out of the first two when completing!

And show me where Arkle won two Tingle Creeks? Kauto Star would have been a Champion Chaser but for falling. No horse who stayed 3m 2f has ever been as fast as Kauto Star!

Loyal2TheRoyal (Meath) - Posts: 4522 - 20/02/2010 10:43:11    567691

http://www.rankopedia.com/ZID=3/198/Ranking-Greatest-Racehorse-of-All-Time/Step1/19448.htm


Maybe someone would like to add Kauto to the list!!!!

Squid

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 20/02/2010 11:28:41    567707

squid.
where is kauto star.
listen i know arkle carried tones of weight in races , and bt the likes of mill house, but anyone who thinks that kauto star is not up there with him are dreaming.
arkle was a great, but kauto is up with him.

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 20/02/2010 12:22:48    567734

ta32,

IMO Kauto doesn't even rate with the horse who won the 1986 gold cup. As stated previously by another poster the calibre of horses Arkle took on were far superior to the current crop of horses Kauto has been locking horns with. The fact that P Nicholls houses many of the best NH races horses tell us all we need to know about the current NH scene and how it operates. Just last weekend we saw a prime example of Nicholls dominance of NH racing when Denman bowed out of the big race his second string the mount of R Walsh who up to the time Denman exited was never asked to challenge or even put into the race. In short the race was laid out for Denman but unforeseen events changed that.
Kauto IMO would not be winning as ofter if other trainers had some of the main opposition currently housed at P Nicholls yard. In short Nicholls has a monopoly on NH racing at this current time.

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 20/02/2010 13:42:58    567838

sqiud.
i know the likes of barber,smith , andy stewart are the money men behind nichols, they have the best money can buy.
but that does not take away the fact that kauto star is pure class?

ta32 (Tyrone) - Posts: 4907 - 20/02/2010 17:22:45    568021

It is a fact that Arkle was a great horse but vastly over-rated, Arkle and Mill House would need SAT-NAV to Follow kauto Star.

Here is how they calculated Arkles Timeform rating

Leopardstown chase march 1 1966
Arkle 12-7
Height o fashion 9-7 Height o fashion had TF rating of 168
Splash 9-7

Arkle won by a neck. difference at weights 43 lbs plus 168 plus neck beating 1LB =212

Irish grand national april 11 1966

Flying Bolt 12-7
Height o fashion 9-9 2L
Splash 9-7 10L
Splash had won previous grand national and was rated 157 for that.

Kauto has run quicker times on soft going than what Arkle did on firm. Arkle was not even the best in his yard for Flying bolt was better at 7 yo.
Why are we talking about Arkle when the Timeform ratings were botched up. FB should be 212 and Arkle 211.
It is a bit like Sea-bird 1965 Arc 145 for a 6 length win. when he only won by 4 and was under pressure and bearing out 2min 35 on good ground,whereas
Ribot won the 1956 Arc in heavy going in 2min35 by not 6 but 8-10 length in a canter.

sersan (UK) - Posts: 1 - 03/03/2010 20:26:46    578512

Kauto has run in 3 Gold Cups and only won 2 of them - he was beaten by a horse with a bad heart in the other. Come to think of it when he did win both of the runners-up had bad hearts! I accept that Kauto is a good horse and I hope he wins next week. However if he was the best ever why has he not got 3 in a row already. Captain Christy won a King George probably more easily than Kauto did last Christmas so I would not read too much into Kempton form anyway.

lochgarmanabu (Wexford) - Posts: 1022 - 05/03/2010 14:48:33    580052