To those who disagree that it would be easier to score from 11m, answer me this
If in the last min of a game trailing by 2 points you had to take a penalty:
Would you
A) rather take it from 13m
B) rather take it from 11m

Take as much time as ye like weighing up the options.

Dr.Shephard (Leitrim) - Posts: 2187 - 20/01/2010 15:22:30    538108

To those who disagree that it would be easier to save a penalty from 11m than 13m, answer me this
If in the last min of a game with your team winning by 2 points and your keeper having to face a penalty:
Would you
A) rather he faced it from 13m or
B) rather he faced it from 11m

Take as much time as ye like weighing up the options.


Squid

squidword (Louth) - Posts: 2897 - 20/01/2010 15:40:18    538128

I am genuinely shocked that so many people are having trouble accepting and understanding that it is easier to score a penalty from closer to the goals than it is from further away. This was why I started this thread here on the GAA forum, after reading some of the bizarre suggestions on the thread on the non-GAA forum. Of course it is easier to score a penalty from 11m: (a) The distance from the penalty spot to the goal is less from 11m, giving the goalkeeper far less reaction time. (b) The distance from the penalty spot to each post is less from 11m (12.78m vs. 14.53m) (c) The goal area appears much bigger to the kicker, as he is closer (see Father Ted, Season 2 - Episode 1 "Hell", where Ted explains the concept of "near" and "far away" to Dougal). ___________________ \ / \ / \ / \ / 11m \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ o _____________ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / 13m \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ o I have attempted to draw the angles of the penalties from the kicker's perspective above, but I'm not sure how they'll turn out when (if) this post is published. It's really basic stuff though, anyone who had even a vague understanding on first year maths should get it. Here is a quick comparison between penalties in soccer and GAA - Soccer goals: 7.32m x 2.44m GAA goals: 6.5m x 2.5m Penalty spot is almost exactly the same at 12yards/10.97m (soccer) and 11m (GAA). So, a penalty taker in soccer has a slightly better angle and bigger target than GAA (although the crossbar is slightly lower in soccer), with an extra 41cm to aim for either side of the 'keeper. I don't know the percentage, but far more than 40-45% of soccer penalties are scored. I would also argue that a GAA ball is easier to control and place than the soccer equilavent, which is lighter - but this is a minor point. The percentage of penalties scored in GAA will rise dramatically now that the penalty spot has been moved two metres closer to goal, of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 20/01/2010 17:53:29    538334

Okay, my diagrams didn't work. But anyone who is still struggling with the concept, just get a piece of paper and draw a horizontal line 6.5cm long (the goalline). Measure 11cm and 13cm from the centre of this line to a point (the penalty spots). Now draw lines from the penalty spots to the ends of the goalline. If you have any sort of spatial awareness at all you will see that it should be easier to score from the point nearer to the goal where the angle is wider and the goalkeeper has less reaction time.

Better still, actually go to your nearest GAA pitch with a friend and take a few penalties from each distance. Even take a few shots from further out, say 15m. If you are too old or otherwise unable to kick a football yourself, enlist the help of two younger relatives or friends. I would be fairly confident that you would find it is easier to score from closer to the goals.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 20/01/2010 20:26:21    538518

Well done Nocky for explaining it so well. I still cannot get over the fact that there are people who do not think (know) that it will be easier to score from 11m. It is painfully obvious.

BartleDoo responded to my post saying it would be easier with this;

Feel free to post something that would substantiate this very bold claim of yours.

I mean, does his brain actually work.

Dr.Shephard (Leitrim) - Posts: 2187 - 21/01/2010 11:02:28    538697

Also with a penalty taken from a shorter distance the goalkeeper has less time to react which makes it much harder to save and the angle favours the taker more than from further out !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 21/01/2010 11:20:50    538711

Are GAA crossbars really higher than soccer? I always thought the opposite!

sam57 (Louth) - Posts: 1502 - 21/01/2010 12:57:44    538842

I always thought the same sam57, until I googled it for this thread, but the regulations state that GAA crossbars should be 6cm higher than soccer crossbars. I think the specification for crossbar thickness might be slightly different, but the heights are 2.5m (GAA) vs. 2.44m (soccer). You learn something new every day I suppose.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 21/01/2010 13:21:37    538876

I genuinely don't get what the big deal is...A player playing at the highest level of the game should have the ability to kick the ball into the back of the net from 13m out.

El.Nino.1 (Tyrone) - Posts: 2 - 21/01/2010 13:31:39    538888

Cavan_Slasher County: Cavan Posts: 3786 538711 Also with a penalty taken from a shorter distance the goalkeeper has less time to react which makes it much harder to save and the angle favours the taker more than from further out !! The reaction time is the crux of the the issue. If you're good enough to be the penalty taker, you should be hitting the target. As for the angle, from 13m a player needs to be within 14.04 degrees of the centre line to hit the target, whilst from 11m the player needs to be within 16.46 degrees of the centre line to hit the target. Assume the keeper is 1m wide (very fat keeper!), the angle needed to score (assuming the keeper doesn't move) from 11m is 2.6 degrees, whilst the angle needed from 13m is 2.2 degrees. Thus, from 11m you have an area of 13.86 degrees (either side) to hit where the keeper has to move to make a save. From 13m you have an area of 11.84 degrees (again, either side) to aim at. Plus, from 11m the keeper has less time to react. So, there you have it. Mathematically PROVED that it is easier to score from 11m than from 13m.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 21/01/2010 14:06:16    538929

nocky
County: Wexford

I am genuinely shocked that so many people are having trouble accepting and understanding that it is easier to score a penalty from closer to the goals than it is from further away

______________________

I'll direct this at you nocky as Dr Shephard clearly hasn't got the where with all to explain anything he says.

You say "it is easier to score a penalty from closer to the goals than it is from further away" So using your theory it should in fact be even easier to score a penalty from 1m out with the keeper standing right in front of you, isn't that so ? .

Be careful answering this because your answer just might contradict all you have said previous.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 21/01/2010 14:59:00    538963

El.Nino.1
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2

538888 I genuinely don't get what the big deal is...A player playing at the highest level of the game should have the ability to kick the ball into the back of the net from 13m out.


A goalkeeper playing at the highest level of the game should have the ability to stop a shot from 13m from hitting the back of the net.

Dr.Shephard (Leitrim) - Posts: 2187 - 21/01/2010 15:09:58    538978

Bartledoo There is a point when getting closer will make things harder, but I can mathematically prove that it is still easier to score from 11m than 13m.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 21/01/2010 15:13:29    538984

I'll make one assumption, that the keeper is 1m wide (which would be a pretty fat keeper), with an additional 0.5m reach either side from standing.. The wider From a distance of 13 metres, you have an angle of 14.04 degrees either side of centre within which a shot will be between the posts. From that same distance, a shot must be at least 4.4 degrees away from centre to avoid hitting a stationary goalkeeper. That gives you a total angle of 9.64 degrees to either side which you must hit for the ball not to be saved by a goalkeeper who doesn't dive. From a distance of 11 metres, you have an angle of 16.46 degrees either side of centre within which a shot will be between the posts. From that same distance, a shot must be at least 5.19 degrees away from centre to avoid hitting a stationary goalkeeper. That gives you a total angle of 11.27 degrees to either side which you must hit for the ball not to be saved by a goalkeeper who doesn't dive. So from 11 metres you have an extra 1.61 degrees to aim for to either side of the keeper. Once you hit this space, from 11m the keeper has less time to react than if you hit it from 13m, adding to the advantage from 11m.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 21/01/2010 15:23:00    538997

At the highest standard of penalty taking would there not be a, perhaps miniscule, slight advantage to being further out? ie if you were curling it (inswinger) into the top corner or in off the post, the greater distance allowing a wider arc?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12311 - 21/01/2010 15:46:21    539024

BartleDoo, I think black&white has explained it better than I ever could. If you're still unable to understand I suggest you go down to your nearest pitch and take a few penalties from different distances, say 11, 13 and 15m. Come back to me and tell us which distance you found it easiest to score from.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 21/01/2010 15:54:24    539035

Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 1897

539024 At the highest standard of penalty taking would there not be a, perhaps miniscule, slight advantage to being further out? ie if you were curling it (inswinger) into the top corner or in off the post, the greater distance allowing a wider arc?


What an irrelevant and ridiculous question?

Dr.Shephard (Leitrim) - Posts: 2187 - 21/01/2010 15:57:08    539037

Breff

At the highest level of penalty taking you shouldn't be curling the ball. Curling means it takes a longer route to it's destination (the goal) meaning that the keeper has slightly more time to save it. The only time you should need to curl a ball is if you don't have a clear line of sight at your target.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 21/01/2010 15:58:32    539040

Dr.Shephard
County: Leitrim
Posts: 954


What an irrelevant and ridiculous question?

21/01/2010 15:58:32
black&white
County: Sligo
Posts: 662

539040 Breff

At the highest level of penalty taking you shouldn't be curling the ball. Curling means it takes a longer route to it's destination (the goal) meaning that the keeper has slightly more time to save it. The only time you should need to curl a ball is if you don't have a clear line of sight at your target.

Haha, maybe thats why I was never any good at them!! It may be ridiculous Doc but I'm not sure how a query about penalties in a thread called "penalties" is deemed irrelevant!

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12311 - 21/01/2010 16:41:11    539102

nocky
County: Wexford
Posts: 1167

BartleDoo, I think black&white has explained it better than I ever could

_____________________


You're not wrong there nocky, but never mind as you did actually make some sort of meaningful effort to explain things even though you made a hames of it. You tried more than can be said for Dr. Shephard :>.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 21/01/2010 17:37:10    539198