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Imagine: what the 2017 Meath championships nearly looked like

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Just read the article 'Imagine: what the 2017 Meath championships nearly looked like'.

Could have been a far more competitive 2017 championship if the CB didn't chicken out again. Now we're going to have to watch another year of teams being hammered in most of their championship games but staying up because of one result. But they keep their "status" so they're happy out :\

pat_custard (Meath) - Posts: 125 - 25/10/2016 13:55:38    1928860

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I think this is one thing where the CB can wash their hands and say to the clubs "no, this one was all your fault". It was the CB who wanted the changes, and the clubs who rejected it.

I'd say it was the mass relegation that caused the most hassle. If it was phased over 2 to 4 years the smaller clubs might see it as 3 or 4 goes at avoiding relegation. Since it was meant to be all done in one year, a lot of pretty unambitious clubs saw reversing the changes at county board level as their only chance of survival.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1677 - 25/10/2016 14:56:29    1928888

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That would have been very good in 2017 at senior and intermediate. At junior level the second teams are ruining it and you can't have clubs like St Marys or Kilbride at Junior C level. That's a joke and part of the reason it failed.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 25/10/2016 14:58:03    1928890

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Replying To Roger:  "That would have been very good in 2017 at senior and intermediate. At junior level the second teams are ruining it and you can't have clubs like St Marys or Kilbride at Junior C level. That's a joke and part of the reason it failed."
A joke why?If they're good enough they go back to Junior B.The only problem with the changes proposed in my view is the number of clubs left staying at senior. We have max 4-8 clubs good enough to call themselves senior standard and the rest of the Senior Championship should be made up of divisional teams.

goosey (Meath) - Posts: 63 - 25/10/2016 15:15:36    1928892

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Replying To Roger:  "That would have been very good in 2017 at senior and intermediate. At junior level the second teams are ruining it and you can't have clubs like St Marys or Kilbride at Junior C level. That's a joke and part of the reason it failed."
Why not?

Every grade would be more competitive. Who cares what the name of that grade the team is in, as long as every team is playing for something other than 'survival'

pat_custard (Meath) - Posts: 125 - 25/10/2016 15:22:03    1928895

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And why can't you have clubs like St Mary's or Kilbride (or any club for that matter) playing at Junior C? Are they that attached to the prestige of playing at Junior B level? At the end of the day, it's junior football. It's not that big of a deal. Clubs need to stop complaining about second teams, and realise that the reason that they could have be playing Junior B or Junior C under the new proposals is that they are just not good enough to be playing at a higher grade. If you are not good enough to be in the top 10 of Junior A (or B) then you have no business complaining about playing Junior B (or C).

hurlingroyals (Meath) - Posts: 45 - 25/10/2016 15:24:30    1928896

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Replying To pat_custard:  "Why not?

Every grade would be more competitive. Who cares what the name of that grade the team is in, as long as every team is playing for something other than 'survival'"
The issue is that unlike Dunshaughlin, Simonstown or O'Mahony's in the JFC, St Mary's and Kilbride are not teams, they are clubs. You can't be relegating St Marys to JFC C while at the same time Simonstown and O'Mahony's are taking the piss in the JFC, losing games by 20 plus points and not making an effort after they won their first games.
St Mary's are raising money and building a €300,000 clubhouse, putting a huge effort into their udnerage after taking their eye off the ball for a while. Telling them they are Junior C will have a massive effect on the club and their future. What effect on their future would there be on the Navan clubs, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin or Seneschalstown be if they were taken out of the JFC? NONE is the answer. They might not like it but putting a second team into a second team competition won't shatter their world.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 25/10/2016 15:45:31    1928907

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Replying To Roger:  "The issue is that unlike Dunshaughlin, Simonstown or O'Mahony's in the JFC, St Mary's and Kilbride are not teams, they are clubs. You can't be relegating St Marys to JFC C while at the same time Simonstown and O'Mahony's are taking the piss in the JFC, losing games by 20 plus points and not making an effort after they won their first games.
St Mary's are raising money and building a €300,000 clubhouse, putting a huge effort into their udnerage after taking their eye off the ball for a while. Telling them they are Junior C will have a massive effect on the club and their future. What effect on their future would there be on the Navan clubs, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin or Seneschalstown be if they were taken out of the JFC? NONE is the answer. They might not like it but putting a second team into a second team competition won't shatter their world."
Roger,

Your view is then if you are unlucky / lucky enough to be born into a club with more than one team you should have your ambition capped to winning second team competitions only if you can't get a game with your first team?
If your second team happens to train harder and be better than a first team who are in the same competition you should be punished and moved to a separate competition with no chance of promotion? It sounds like a public service you are running , competition is what raises standards.
Junior B clubs don't like third teams winning their competitions but they're afraid to say it which is why you're relying on the excuse of teams getting beaten by 20 points at the end of the season.

goosey (Meath) - Posts: 63 - 25/10/2016 15:56:35    1928908

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Replying To Roger:  "The issue is that unlike Dunshaughlin, Simonstown or O'Mahony's in the JFC, St Mary's and Kilbride are not teams, they are clubs. You can't be relegating St Marys to JFC C while at the same time Simonstown and O'Mahony's are taking the piss in the JFC, losing games by 20 plus points and not making an effort after they won their first games.
St Mary's are raising money and building a €300,000 clubhouse, putting a huge effort into their udnerage after taking their eye off the ball for a while. Telling them they are Junior C will have a massive effect on the club and their future. What effect on their future would there be on the Navan clubs, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin or Seneschalstown be if they were taken out of the JFC? NONE is the answer. They might not like it but putting a second team into a second team competition won't shatter their world."
if those 2nd teams are getting beat by 20 points like you said they are, then surely they'll be getting relegated? if a first team isn't good enough to be competing in Junior A/B to win then surely being in B/C would make more sense?

meathforsam09 (Meath) - Posts: 116 - 25/10/2016 16:16:47    1928912

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But how is wallowing at the bottom of junior B any more prestigious than being at the top of junior C? If you're born into St. Marys or Kilbride, it is pretty much your destiny to spent your whole career being around the 45th to 50th best team in the county. Maybe once in a generation there might be a decent bunch to climb to junior A. What difference does it make playing junior C or B? Imagine if Ballinlough or Walterstown said "oh we can't go down to intermediate, our players would be less motivated".

Blaming second teams is a weak excuse. If you train all year, and the best prepared selection of the best players in your clubcan't beat the players ranked 18th to 35th in a bigger club, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1677 - 25/10/2016 16:25:19    1928914

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Replying To goosey:  "Roger,

Your view is then if you are unlucky / lucky enough to be born into a club with more than one team you should have your ambition capped to winning second team competitions only if you can't get a game with your first team?
If your second team happens to train harder and be better than a first team who are in the same competition you should be punished and moved to a separate competition with no chance of promotion? It sounds like a public service you are running , competition is what raises standards.
Junior B clubs don't like third teams winning their competitions but they're afraid to say it which is why you're relying on the excuse of teams getting beaten by 20 points at the end of the season."
Do second team players train with the sole aim of winning a competition with their second team or is their aim to get on their first team? From experience, it is the latter. No kids plays underage football with the aim of growing up to play with his club's second team - they dream of the first team.
With regard to promotions, what promotion is on offer for Donaghmore-Ashbourne's intermediate team for example? None, they can't go anywhere if they win the IFC and they then won't be allowed to take part in the Leinster IFC, as Leinster Council won't recognise second teams. They didn't even win the JFC they just got promoted because of a championship restructure.
The same goes for any of the strong second teams - Dunboyne, Summerhill, Skryne or Dunshaughlin. They could be brilliant but the possibility of promotion to senior football does not exist, nor ever playing in the Leinster championship. Unless one thing happens, those players play with their first team which I'm guessing is their ultimate aim.
No third team has ever won the JFC B so that's not an accurate statement even if there are some competitive teams there.
I'm not backing a state supported system here, you have to earn your way. Earning your way is forming a club, building a pitch, running an underage system, keeping the show on the road. In a cultural and sporting organisation like the GAA, that carries as much weight, if not more than a club existing in a highly populated area.
Plenty of counties do not let second teams in their A championships. We don''t let B teams compete in our A leagues, so why the championship? If you win a BFL Division 1 title is it worthless because you are not promoted to AFL Division 4? I played in a B league final, it meant plenty to me.
it's certainly worth debating.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 25/10/2016 16:35:45    1928922

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Replying To goosey:  "Roger,

Your view is then if you are unlucky / lucky enough to be born into a club with more than one team you should have your ambition capped to winning second team competitions only if you can't get a game with your first team?
If your second team happens to train harder and be better than a first team who are in the same competition you should be punished and moved to a separate competition with no chance of promotion? It sounds like a public service you are running , competition is what raises standards.
Junior B clubs don't like third teams winning their competitions but they're afraid to say it which is why you're relying on the excuse of teams getting beaten by 20 points at the end of the season."
Frustrating as it may be if a second team wins Junior A or B I don't think the first team clubs are that bothered by it as the best team should win out in the division. It's the Jekyll and Hyde nature of their results from the start to end of the championship when players are lost up the ranks.
I assume the first thing these clubs look for after the championship draw is the round they have to play the second teams.

The mass relegation was always a ridiculous idea and should have been done in a phased manner.
Also there should be at least two teams going up and coming down at each grade every year.
As easy as it is to thread water at Senior , Intermediate etc it's inversely as difficult to get up with only the winning team getting promoted.

You can say what you want about clubs not being good enough but Kilbride and St Mary's for example have been doing great work at underage that should bear fruit in a few years. If they went Junior C next year how do you attract young players when you are competing against rugby and soccer clubs offering a higher standard of competition in their area.

The championship system is flawed and needs changing with more movement up and down.
Previous point about clubs and not teams is very valid.
A lot of rural clubs have very small populations versus some of the bigger clubs like Dunshaughlin, Son/Ash. Cilles, Ratoath, Trim, Navan etc
That's the look of the draw but some posters have very dismissive attitudes towards the smaller clubs.
I'd say the Junior B trophy means more to some Vincents lads than another Keegan cup would to half the NOM team if they had won it this year.

Royal_Gunner (Meath) - Posts: 534 - 25/10/2016 16:38:12    1928924

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Roger, at the end of the day the goal of all this should be to increase the standard of club football in the county. Unfortunately for most rural clubs (I myself am from a rural club that's not senior and would've been affected by the changes) they're simply not as good as reserve teams for senior clubs. Why should a first team be given preference over a reserve side? That makes it equally unfair on a player for the reserve side.
Competition improves standards and the only way for a club like St. Mary's to improve is to be relegated (if nees be) and rebuild for the future in a grade that suits them. Pride and stubborness once again has set football back in the county.
Ideally divisional sides would be the best way of bringing equal competition for all players but I don't think I'll see the day when that happens in Meath.

nmsmithy96 (Meath) - Posts: 108 - 25/10/2016 16:49:32    1928925

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Replying To pat_custard:  "Just read the article 'Imagine: what the 2017 Meath championships nearly looked like'.

Could have been a far more competitive 2017 championship if the CB didn't chicken out again. Now we're going to have to watch another year of teams being hammered in most of their championship games but staying up because of one result. But they keep their "status" so they're happy out :\"
For a start having 18 teams in each grade is a farce.Also the group games generally mean very little.

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 25/10/2016 16:58:10    1928927

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "I think this is one thing where the CB can wash their hands and say to the clubs "no, this one was all your fault". It was the CB who wanted the changes, and the clubs who rejected it.

I'd say it was the mass relegation that caused the most hassle. If it was phased over 2 to 4 years the smaller clubs might see it as 3 or 4 goes at avoiding relegation. Since it was meant to be all done in one year, a lot of pretty unambitious clubs saw reversing the changes at county board level as their only chance of survival."
Yes but the clubs voted this in orginally even though they knew that..

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 25/10/2016 16:59:01    1928928

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Replying To Royal_Gunner:  "Frustrating as it may be if a second team wins Junior A or B I don't think the first team clubs are that bothered by it as the best team should win out in the division. It's the Jekyll and Hyde nature of their results from the start to end of the championship when players are lost up the ranks.
I assume the first thing these clubs look for after the championship draw is the round they have to play the second teams.

The mass relegation was always a ridiculous idea and should have been done in a phased manner.
Also there should be at least two teams going up and coming down at each grade every year.
As easy as it is to thread water at Senior , Intermediate etc it's inversely as difficult to get up with only the winning team getting promoted.

You can say what you want about clubs not being good enough but Kilbride and St Mary's for example have been doing great work at underage that should bear fruit in a few years. If they went Junior C next year how do you attract young players when you are competing against rugby and soccer clubs offering a higher standard of competition in their area.

The championship system is flawed and needs changing with more movement up and down.
Previous point about clubs and not teams is very valid.
A lot of rural clubs have very small populations versus some of the bigger clubs like Dunshaughlin, Son/Ash. Cilles, Ratoath, Trim, Navan etc
That's the look of the draw but some posters have very dismissive attitudes towards the smaller clubs.
I'd say the Junior B trophy means more to some Vincents lads than another Keegan cup would to half the NOM team if they had won it this year."
That's a very good idea to have two teams promoted and relegated every year. it would keep things fresh and remove the safety net for some.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 25/10/2016 17:08:58    1928936

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Not everybody agrees with me that second teams are a problem, that's fair enough.
My parting shot on the issue is this. If you said to every club that has a second team that competes in first team championships, you have two choices:
A. your second team can compete in the IFC/JFC/JFC B but no player who does so will be eligible to play first team championship football in the same year.
or
B. if your players want to play second team football but their aim is to move up to the first team, they can do so in a reserve championship that does not interfere with the A championship.
How many clubs would be happy with option A? Not many I'd guess which indicates that they are not committed to the IFC/JFC/JFC B, it is not their priority.
If Don/Ash, O'Mahony's, Skryne, Dunshaughlin are willing to name 25 players who will play only for their second team, I've no problem.
If they want to play four or five first team players on their second teams in the early round of the JFC, beat first teams, then put those players onto their SFC team half way through the year and see a weakened second team lose to other JFC sides, and totally skew the competition - then I do have a problem.

Roger (Meath) - Posts: 480 - 25/10/2016 17:21:13    1928939

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is it fair to say the teams in the imaginary relegation are delighted it didn't go ahead, id say so. but is it fair to say the majority will be in the same boat next year. to me this says they are simply not good enough. this is a bit like the Barney rule a few years ago. Nobody relegated from senior. its all a bit Fr Tedish to me. 12 senior, 12 inter, 12 junior and the rest of clubs first teams in a junior b. you could have a senior and inter and junior in a B championship that has club second tier teams.

aces (Meath) - Posts: 162 - 25/10/2016 17:30:36    1928941

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I think they should introduce a squad list for the championship like they do for the B leagues.
All clubs name 20/25 players who cannot play for the second team for example.

Then that keeps the second teams reasonably intact and so they are not getting seriously weakened and thus creates a more level playing field for the other teams in the championship.
Players outside of this 20 could move up and play senior if required, so the first team is not affected, but they can also remain playing at Inter, Junior A/B/C.
It's not perfect and could be open to abuse but I prefer suggestions to moaning about the failings of the current set-up

Royal_Gunner (Meath) - Posts: 534 - 25/10/2016 17:44:08    1928945

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If the best 20 players, under the best management and preparation, from a passionate rural club who are utterly desperate to win the JBFC can't beat the 21st to 40th ranked players from a bigger club who (in your own estimation) don't even care about the JBFC, then no amount of regrading or shoving teams into their own championship will hide the fact that junior club simply are not good enough.

If anything, moving the 2nd teams out of the main championship would make the championships worse. You'd have to promote all the junior B clubs to make up the gap and then severely dilute the standard. If you suddenly have to play Kilbride or St. Pauls instead of Summerhill or Dunboyne's 2nd team, you can afford to coast and reduce the intensity.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1677 - 25/10/2016 17:44:48    1928946

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