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Thank god for Longford....
It is funny because when they last played the Dubs in the championship I thought four/five of Longford's players were decent.
It is obviously more then that now.
I am starting to think that the standard in Ulster has dipped while competitive it does not mean it top notch.
Armagh - faded into oblivion
Down - faded into oblivion
Moaghan- beaten by Longford
Donegal- a fast fading force
Fermanagh - punching above thier weight
Tryone - being re-invented by the shrewd M.Harte going nicely
Cavan- em they have S. Johnston back middle of the road team
Derry - no great shakes take away lynch what's left?
Antrim- good at club level and decent enough hurlers
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 990 - 12/07/2016 21:58:35
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Replying To gormdubhgorm: "Thank god for Longford....
It is funny because when they last played the Dubs in the championship I thought four/five of Longford's players were decent.
It is obviously more then that now.
I am starting to think that the standard in Ulster has dipped while competitive it does not mean it top notch.
Armagh - faded into oblivion
Down - faded into oblivion
Moaghan- beaten by Longford
Donegal- a fast fading force
Fermanagh - punching above thier weight
Tryone - being re-invented by the shrewd M.Harte going nicely
Cavan- em they have S. Johnston back middle of the road team
Derry - no great shakes take away lynch what's left?
Antrim- good at club level and decent enough hurlers" "Derry - no great shakes take away lynch what's left?"
Well you have......... the McKaigues and Rogers from Slaughtneil and the Kielts from Kilrea.
Derry issue isn't quality of players. We have won more club all Irelands than Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Waterford, Westmeath, Kildare, Sligo, Offaly, clare, Carlow, Limerick, Wicklow and Antrim ***COMBINDED***
We are not a one man team. Lynch hasn't even been our best player over the past 12 months. We have the players no doubt but for some reason that I cant put my finger on we have delivered in the last 15 years.
A good result against cavan (which will be tough) and we can see ourselfs in a QF. Every team has a quiet spell our has just been a bit longer than most
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 12/07/2016 22:24:28
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Replying To gormdubhgorm: "Thank god for Longford....
It is funny because when they last played the Dubs in the championship I thought four/five of Longford's players were decent.
It is obviously more then that now.
I am starting to think that the standard in Ulster has dipped while competitive it does not mean it top notch.
Armagh - faded into oblivion
Down - faded into oblivion
Moaghan- beaten by Longford
Donegal- a fast fading force
Fermanagh - punching above thier weight
Tryone - being re-invented by the shrewd M.Harte going nicely
Cavan- em they have S. Johnston back middle of the road team
Derry - no great shakes take away lynch what's left?
Antrim- good at club level and decent enough hurlers" I suppose it helps for ye to class Donegal as a "fast fading force", wouldn't want the nightmare of 2014 happening again!
greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 459 - 13/07/2016 10:40:32
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Replying To SamOnErrigal: "How many of those counties in Leinster made the All Ireland final ? How many won Sam. ? I am talking 2001/2015
We were talking about Ulster football here in London last week and this Kerry gent asked the question -- what did the Northern teams ever do.
Gave him a simple answer---- only for Ulster teams in the period of 2002/2 to 2012 Kerry would have won All Ireland after All Ireland.
Had to remind him of 2002/2003/2005 /2008/2010 and2012 when Kerry's All Ireland dreams were ended by Ulster teams.
The reality was only Ulster teams at the time were able to beat Kerry" Didn't know Cork was in Ulster.
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 13/07/2016 11:02:19
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Replying To Kurt_Angle: "Didn't know Cork was in Ulster." (Down beat Kerry in 2010)
greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 459 - 13/07/2016 12:05:27
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We have won more club all Irelands than Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Waterford, Westmeath, Kildare, Sligo, Offaly, clare, Carlow, Limerick, Wicklow and Antrim ***COMBINDED***
You have actually won the same as 3 of those Counties comined given ourselves, Wicklow and Limerick have each won one. I won't start in to Hurling Club All-Irelands won in Ulster though.... ;-)
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 13/07/2016 12:21:14
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Replying To greatpoint: "(Down beat Kerry in 2010)" I'm aware of that.
I guess I took the line "...The reality was only Ulster teams at the time were able to beat Kerry" to mean "only Ulster teams at the time were able to beat Kerry".
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 13/07/2016 14:05:17
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Replying To DoireCityFC: ""Derry - no great shakes take away lynch what's left?"
Well you have......... the McKaigues and Rogers from Slaughtneil and the Kielts from Kilrea.
Derry issue isn't quality of players. We have won more club all Irelands than Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Leitrim, London, Longford, Louth, Waterford, Westmeath, Kildare, Sligo, Offaly, clare, Carlow, Limerick, Wicklow and Antrim ***COMBINDED***
We are not a one man team. Lynch hasn't even been our best player over the past 12 months. We have the players no doubt but for some reason that I cant put my finger on we have delivered in the last 15 years.
A good result against cavan (which will be tough) and we can see ourselfs in a QF. Every team has a quiet spell our has just been a bit longer than most" In fairness I should have remembered Slaughtneil beat Austin Stacks. I remember watching it on telly.
My point still stands though Derry are no great shakes they do not seem to knot together (as you said). They seem to have been raving about the Kielts for years but they have never backed it up on a consistent basis for whatever reason.
I am probably basing my bias that Derry = Lynch because in the league final v the dubs the objective was to mark Lynch (by cooper) and they would be grand after that.
If your right in what you are saying Derry are a mismanaged sleeping giant?
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 990 - 14/07/2016 18:39:35
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If you are judging Derrys ability from a league final 2 years ago you should give us more credit in your post from the team we beat that year. I don't know about sleeping giants but with proper management, guidance, facilities (we have the 3rd best in the country) and a bit of luck any team can go far. Throw in a bit of natural talent and you're laughing. Growing up I remember Dublin were not all that great and not to be feared, look at you now! Any team can improve greatly if given the right guidance and enough time. I remember 8 or 9 years ago playing tipp in the league and they scored 1 or maybe 2 points against us and now the are competing in munster. I just think you showed a few team a lack of respect there.
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 14/07/2016 21:03:33
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Replying To DoireCityFC: "If you are judging Derrys ability from a league final 2 years ago you should give us more credit in your post from the team we beat that year. I don't know about sleeping giants but with proper management, guidance, facilities (we have the 3rd best in the country) and a bit of luck any team can go far. Throw in a bit of natural talent and you're laughing. Growing up I remember Dublin were not all that great and not to be feared, look at you now! Any team can improve greatly if given the right guidance and enough time. I remember 8 or 9 years ago playing tipp in the league and they scored 1 or maybe 2 points against us and now the are competing in munster. I just think you showed a few team a lack of respect there." It may look like I am showing Ulster a lack of respect but I am judging Ulster by the standards that were set in the 90's and 00's when every county in the country used fear an Ulster team.
Like you said 8/9 years ago or slightly longer Dublin were not much to shout about (they were actually over-hyped - there was even a documentary about the Dublin team in 2005! I think still might be on the RTE player.) Back then Dublin teams used to fold more often then not when any pressure was put on them. Also the bench was not strong it was either average players, replacing average players or weaker players replacing stronger ones who tired.
I used to enjoy watching the Derry and Down team's of the 90s in particular. Even if when Derry beat Dublin in the 93 semi: a Derry fella in the canal end would not let me lean on the steel barrier in the Canal end. We were jostling for space during the match. At the end of the game says he "you can lean on it all you like now".
I just think that Ulster as a whole is not up to the standards of the previous height's it set.
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 990 - 14/07/2016 22:37:52
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Replying To gormdubhgorm: "It may look like I am showing Ulster a lack of respect but I am judging Ulster by the standards that were set in the 90's and 00's when every county in the country used fear an Ulster team.
Like you said 8/9 years ago or slightly longer Dublin were not much to shout about (they were actually over-hyped - there was even a documentary about the Dublin team in 2005! I think still might be on the RTE player.) Back then Dublin teams used to fold more often then not when any pressure was put on them. Also the bench was not strong it was either average players, replacing average players or weaker players replacing stronger ones who tired.
I used to enjoy watching the Derry and Down team's of the 90s in particular. Even if when Derry beat Dublin in the 93 semi: a Derry fella in the canal end would not let me lean on the steel barrier in the Canal end. We were jostling for space during the match. At the end of the game says he "you can lean on it all you like now".
I just think that Ulster as a whole is not up to the standards of the previous height's it set." People feared Ulster yes and its hard to stay at the top forever......near impossible in fact. No ulster team I know go out fearing anyone. If that was the attitude in your own province you might get a game out of someone now and then. Huge respect for Dublin but little for most of the other teams. One inter county manager even admitted he was getting ready for the qualifiers before their opening game. If that happened up here they would be sacked on the spot......or at least I hope they would be
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 14/07/2016 23:59:40
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It's the competitiveness that sets Ulster out. The Munster Final and this Sunday's Leinster Final are easily called while Donegal v Tyrone is a hard one to call with much confidence.
Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1792 - 15/07/2016 09:59:18
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"They seem to have been raving about the Kielts for years but they have never backed it up on a consistent basis for whatever reason."
Great guy. He's my dentist and I love going these days to see if I can get some inside knowledge ha ha
in regards to his ability with 8.5 points average per game he's second only to dean rock this year
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 16/07/2016 21:15:19
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I used to enjoy watching the Derry and Down team's of the 90s in particular. Even if when Derry beat Dublin in the 93 semi: a Derry fella in the canal end would not let me lean on the steel barrier in the Canal end. We were jostling for space during the match. At the end of the game says he "you can lean on it all you like now".
I just think that Ulster as a whole is not up to the standards of the previous height's it set.
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts:552 - 14/07/2016 22:37:52 1
I disagree with you on the standard back then compared to now, as not having a backdoor probably helped in some ways. Back then Ulster had a few tough teams, and only the toughest side went through, and they did so feeling fresh, hungry and tested. Where some of their rivals may have only had 1 tough game in their respective provincials.
The All Ireland wins of 1991, 1992 and 1993 seen Down win their first AI title since the 1960's, and Donegal and Derry win their first ever All Ireland titles ever. In each of these cases, the winner's partied very hard along with their entire counties population and failed to make the cut the following year, albeit maybe running their hungrier rivals very close.
Take away the backdoor now, and Ulster Champions Monaghan would have avoided Tyrone and probably would have possibly pushed on in 2013 and 2015. Ulster Champions Donegal reached the AI Semi final in 2011, and All Ireland finals in 2012 and 2014. Looking at the Ulster final this year, I would be confident of the winner making a dash to the All Ireland final.
So my point is that the standard hasn't really changed or deteriorated, the backdoor system can sometimes upset the order of things, where like in 2013 and 2014, where Champions Monaghan met their bogey team Tyrone in All Ireland Quarter Final's. But generally the Ulster Champions still perform pretty well in comparison to the other Provincial Champions. I think sides who exit the Ulster Championship sometimes struggle in the early stages of the qualifiers, mainly because I think the stronger of these Ulster sides struggle to get motivated and focus after the disappointment of losing in Ulster, while the weaker of these Ulster sides are beatable by a great number of sides regardless.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3032 - 16/07/2016 22:43:22
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Replying To GaryMc82: "I used to enjoy watching the Derry and Down team's of the 90s in particular. Even if when Derry beat Dublin in the 93 semi: a Derry fella in the canal end would not let me lean on the steel barrier in the Canal end. We were jostling for space during the match. At the end of the game says he "you can lean on it all you like now".
I just think that Ulster as a whole is not up to the standards of the previous height's it set.
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts:552 - 14/07/2016 22:37:52 1
I disagree with you on the standard back then compared to now, as not having a backdoor probably helped in some ways. Back then Ulster had a few tough teams, and only the toughest side went through, and they did so feeling fresh, hungry and tested. Where some of their rivals may have only had 1 tough game in their respective provincials.
The All Ireland wins of 1991, 1992 and 1993 seen Down win their first AI title since the 1960's, and Donegal and Derry win their first ever All Ireland titles ever. In each of these cases, the winner's partied very hard along with their entire counties population and failed to make the cut the following year, albeit maybe running their hungrier rivals very close.
Take away the backdoor now, and Ulster Champions Monaghan would have avoided Tyrone and probably would have possibly pushed on in 2013 and 2015. Ulster Champions Donegal reached the AI Semi final in 2011, and All Ireland finals in 2012 and 2014. Looking at the Ulster final this year, I would be confident of the winner making a dash to the All Ireland final.
So my point is that the standard hasn't really changed or deteriorated, the backdoor system can sometimes upset the order of things, where like in 2013 and 2014, where Champions Monaghan met their bogey team Tyrone in All Ireland Quarter Final's. But generally the Ulster Champions still perform pretty well in comparison to the other Provincial Champions. I think sides who exit the Ulster Championship sometimes struggle in the early stages of the qualifiers, mainly because I think the stronger of these Ulster sides struggle to get motivated and focus after the disappointment of losing in Ulster, while the weaker of these Ulster sides are beatable by a great number of sides regardless." In fairness Gary monaghan got beat by a tryone team who were weaker than the provincial champions in the other 3 provinces. Monaghan have done very well in the last few years but the are the weakest team to win a provincial title in the last 5 years
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 17/07/2016 00:43:14
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Replying To gormdubhgorm: "It may look like I am showing Ulster a lack of respect but I am judging Ulster by the standards that were set in the 90's and 00's when every county in the country used fear an Ulster team.
Like you said 8/9 years ago or slightly longer Dublin were not much to shout about (they were actually over-hyped - there was even a documentary about the Dublin team in 2005! I think still might be on the RTE player.) Back then Dublin teams used to fold more often then not when any pressure was put on them. Also the bench was not strong it was either average players, replacing average players or weaker players replacing stronger ones who tired.
I used to enjoy watching the Derry and Down team's of the 90s in particular. Even if when Derry beat Dublin in the 93 semi: a Derry fella in the canal end would not let me lean on the steel barrier in the Canal end. We were jostling for space during the match. At the end of the game says he "you can lean on it all you like now".
I just think that Ulster as a whole is not up to the standards of the previous height's it set." I think this is a fair assessment. Ulster football AND hurling are NOT as strong as they were. There seems to be a very deep malaise and disinterest within many parts of the province which I don't believe Croke Park or the Ulster Council are addressing. While I have nothing against tactics I am starting to believe that defensive plans and formulae ARE beginning to take away from individual talent. Armagh and Tyrone had the talented players to back up their defensive systems 5/10 years ago but those skillful fellas are few and far between now and pulling 15 men behind the ball just isn't going to win you important games anymore. I think Tyrone are starting to realise this now and you can see them introducing fast, skillful players into the equation again whereas over the past few years the fellas involved have been more methodical and system driven. It's time to let our kids start expressing their abilities on the pitch and let the Peter Canavans, James McCartans, Mickey Lindens, the Stevie O'Neills, the Oisin McConvilles, the Martin McHughs, the Anthony Tohills come through again.
Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9838 - 17/07/2016 00:48:52
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I don't think it's overly defensive.
This year in ulster
Tyrone 3-14 5-14 and 16
Cavan 2-16 3-7 and 2-17
Monaghan 2-22 14 and 2-10
Donegal 2-12 1-11 and 17
There were a few low scoring teams but not games. Armagh I admit have been poor up front.
Derry 1- 18 1-17 and 1-14 in the back door
Down 3-17 fermanagh 1-14 and 19 cavan 2-13 and 18.
These are all scores that would win most games. If this is boring blanket defensive football then sign me up
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 17/07/2016 10:45:35
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I don't think it's overly defensive.
This year in ulster
Tyrone 3-14 5-14 and 16
Cavan 2-16 3-7 and 2-17
Monaghan 2-22 14 and 2-10
Donegal 2-12 1-11 and 17
There were a few low scoring teams but not games. Armagh I admit have been poor up front.
Derry 1- 18 1-17 and 1-14 in the back door
Down 3-17 fermanagh 1-14 and 19 cavan 2-13 and 18.
These are all scores that would win most games. If this is boring blanket defensive football then sign me up
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 17/07/2016 11:00:44
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Sorry folks I'm not sure why that posted twice
DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 17/07/2016 11:08:03
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Thank god for munster football, 4 teams in the last 12, most of any province;)
tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 17/07/2016 11:32:54
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