Killarney.87
County: Tipperary

I never understood where Cork got their Rebels nickname from anyway, must be one of these ironic nicknames like little John.Sure we started the war of independence in Soloheadbeg and you don't see us crowing about it.

Cork's "Rebels nickname" does not derive, at least originally, from the War of Independence. It goes back a lot earlier. They following extract is from Wikipedia:

In 1491 Cork played a part in the English War of the Roses when Perkin Warbeck, a pretender to the English throne, landed in the city and tried to recruit support for a plot to overthrow Henry VII of England. The Cork people fought with Perkin because he was French and not English, they were the only county in Ireland to join the fight. The mayor of Cork and several important citizens went with Warbeck to England but when the rebellion collapsed they were all captured and executed. Cork's nickname of the 'rebel city' originates in these events.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2866 - 09/07/2015 20:06:33    1750688

And as regards the swastika... If you happened to go to China you would see swastikas in many places.
The Nazis adopted/adapted it.
It didnt stop the Chinese continuing to use it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

BIG SACKS (Tyrone) - Posts: 1681 - 09/07/2015 20:19:20    1750694

Sounds like a good story cockney.Wheres the proof? (:

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 09/07/2015 21:32:46    1750746

BIG SACKS
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1546

1750684 Sadly Irish people have got drawn into an American argument that is nothing to do with us.
Americans take their flags very seriously.... apparently its an awful crime to even drop the stars and stripes on the ground.
Do we have to follow this nonsense?
I imagine Cork fans just like this piece of cloth because of the colour and pattern on it.... American slavery has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Most of the people carrying the flags haven't a notion what it means in America.... it has no context here apart from that given by the sensationalist media.
_____________________________
Huh, and we don't???

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 10/07/2015 08:40:23    1750782

@DoireCityFC

'Our country'? Jaysus... you need a passport to get out wehst of Tralee; there's no hope beyond the county bounds.

plike (Kerry) - Posts: 569 - 10/07/2015 09:08:25    1750792

Ban the Ulster and Northern Ireland flags. Why? They've been caught red handed. Boom. Boom.

plike (Kerry) - Posts: 569 - 10/07/2015 09:56:52    1750827

Sounds like a good story cockney.Wheres the proof? (:

Sounds more like a term the Irish people would have put on to them as a badge of dishonour for taking part in an internal British war i.e. rebelling against the people of Ireland. I am sure I saw that written down on a piece of paper somewhere.

Oh and there is no fleg of Norn Iron - that banner they fly with the red hand and crown was abolished in 1973 when themmuns didn't like the idea of Sunningdale and brought it and Stormont down. The current official flag is the Jolly Rodger. Yo ho ho.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 10/07/2015 10:25:01    1750847

Will all Catholic, Christian or many other religious flags be banned for the atrocities those associations causes? Or the British flag for all the wars and invasions it represents?

Or even the gaa flag for the biggest atrocity of all. giving all its funding to the already resource dominant region!

The answer is no, and I hope the Cork lads keep flying it. Up the rebels

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 10/07/2015 15:18:09    1751077

Up the rebels

British or Irish... ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 10/07/2015 15:25:20    1751083

Cockney Cat,

I've never been sure about that story. It seemed to appear on the internet a few years back and spread like wildfire. I can't say for sure though, as it's not my period of history.

What I can be sure about is the wide usage of the 'rebel county' description during and after the Irish revolution. Given the fact that Cork was by far and away the most violent county between 1919 and 1923, and the dominance of print media in the 20th century, I think it is almost certain that the name rose to prominence at that time. It MAY have been used during an earlier period, but I doubt that it gained any traction. I have studied nineteenth century history fairly extensively and I have never once read it in any record of any kind, so it almost certainly wasn't in use at that time. The people who spread it and made it prominent did so during the first half of the twentieth century, and they did so in reference to the revolutionary period. And the people wjho maintained its prominence over the last 60 -70 years, probably did so in reference to GAA teams, without much knowledge of what had happened in Cork during the WOI.

And of course, if one equates the usage of the term 'rebel county' with Irish Republican violence of a less 'successful' nature - one would have to use it to describe Wexford.

Here endeth the lesson :)

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 10/07/2015 21:39:32    1751252

Culchie

Good reply. The true significance of events of long ago can get lost in the mists of time, what I stated is more a legend than a fact.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2866 - 11/07/2015 09:20:59    1751269

Poor Cork fans are harmless, they are not for Pearl Harbour invasion just because they have the Japanese flag. Sure the English believe the tricolour was/is a flag of sedition. Never heard of a Northern Ireland flag before either, what is it? BTW if the Red Hand of Ulster was an inch bigger it would be a foot.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1762 - 11/07/2015 12:55:49    1751330

World is great at taking offence at flags and symbols never their own usually someone they have a gripe with or as a excuse to show how "aware" they are. For our own flag is regarded as a "terrorist" rag by people not to far from us. The fans waving the Confederate flags, alongside Japanese war flags do so for their colours anyone who thinks otherwise is a bit sad really. I don't think the Cork fans waving these flags did so in protest at the o'hailpin's presence in the Cork team. Nor have I heard them ask Cork fans not to fly them. Maybe a quiet word will do the trick, banning them? pathetic! just appeal to peoples better judgement works most time without the need for marking a political score card.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4957 - 11/07/2015 15:14:40    1751367

To simplify, the South did not want the North controlling their affairs...The objective was control of their own legislation

The truth and nothing but the truth. But can you name a single other burning issue, requiring control of their own legislation, that so divided the south from the north?

Why did regiments recruited in Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware (the slaveowning states who stayed within the Union) fight for the Confederacy, when none did from any of the other 'free' states? A phenomenal coincidence.

Do you really believe civil war would have broken out, in the absence of slavery as an issue?

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 12/07/2015 10:53:33    1751681

The debate about what the Battle flag of the south stands for has been going on for a long time in America. It's a complicated debate but I can't see if the GAA tried to stop people bringing flags into stadiums where it would end. I have also seen USSR flags being carried by Cork supporters. I'm sure plenty of eastern Europeans would find that fairly offensive considering the history of the USSR state so should that be banned also ? The Japanese rising sun flag used to sometimes seen at some Cork matches (do they still use it ?) is not thought highly of in many part's of Asia, ban that too ?. I have to say that a lot of the international flags supporters use look good in stadiums. I don't think they do much harm.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1416 - 12/07/2015 11:32:58    1751701

The issue in America is the removal of the Confederate flag from government buildings only to make things more neutral. They got rid of nativity scenes from the public areas, and other Christian symbols to make things less "one sided". Making an issue out of Cork fans waving any bit of red is an Irish invention. "Happy Holidays" to all today.

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1239 - 12/07/2015 11:52:00    1751714

Cork and the conferate flag. Sure that's nothing. There are union jack flags flying in several parts of the country.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 12/07/2015 13:18:27    1751741

An tseabhac,

Firstly, to suggest that the Confederate States somehow needed a reason other than legislative independence to fight the war, is a bit unusual. Would you suggest that Irish revolutionaries needed a reason other than legislative independence to secede from their Union with Britain? Would Collins or deValersa be able to tell you what exactly they were going to do differently? You seem to be suggesting that the only reason they wanted legislative independence was retention of slavery. By that logic, Ireland would never have wanted independence, as we weren't retaining anything.

Secondly, there were every real fears in the South about Federal attempts to regulate a cotton trade which was growing exponentially. Northern industrialists wanted to ensure that as much money as possible was diverted from the growers and towards the banks, agents, shipping lines, etc. Specific taxes had also been mooted (and perhaps even raised in Congress if memory serves). Thus the cause, as with most wars, was money. If you want to find the cause of most things in history - show men the money!

And yes - slavery was a huge part of that money trail. Wealthy southerners most certainly wanted it retained, and even expanded. But I still say (and even you post above begins to accept) that the suggestion that slavery was primary, or only, cause of the war is very, very, simplistic.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 12/07/2015 14:39:38    1751773

Rebels? haha!

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 12/07/2015 15:36:52    1751801

12/07/2015 14:39:38
Culchie
County: Cork
Posts: 780

1751773
An tseabhac,

Firstly, to suggest that the Confederate States somehow needed a reason other than legislative independence to fight the war, is a bit unusual. Would you suggest that Irish revolutionaries needed a reason other than legislative independence to secede from their Union with Britain?

Yes I would. Centuries of a different culture and language, history of religious and ethnic discrimination, frustration of fifty years of a majority voting for self-government being ignored, centuries as a separate kingdom, etc. I could go on and on, I cannot believe this is a serious comparison.
Could you not at least have tested me with an allusion to the Belgian Revolution as your example, given your knowledge of nineteenth century history?

Would Collins or deValersa be able to tell you what exactly they were going to do differently?

Yes they would. Revival of the language would be very much the quickest and easiest example. Just because it didn't work, doesn't mean it was not what they planned to do. There are far, far better comparisons.

Secondly, there were every real fears in the South about Federal attempts to regulate a cotton trade which was growing exponentially. Northern industrialists wanted to ensure that as much money as possible was diverted from the growers and towards the banks, agents, shipping lines, etc. Specific taxes had also been mooted (and perhaps even raised in Congress if memory serves). Thus the cause, as with most wars, was money. If you want to find the cause of most things in history - show men the money!

You mean, the exact thing I referred to in my post. Did you read about the super robots? Why was cotton so profitable- perhaps a connection to costs saved on the workers' wages?

But I still say (and even you post above begins to accept) that the suggestion that slavery was primary, or only, cause of the war is very, very, simplistic.

Slavery was not the only cause of the war, something that I never suggested, but it is inextricably entangled with the other bones of contention you mention. Slavery = profitable cotton = money.

Now that I've answered some of your questions (even if you may not agree with the answers), perhaps you could return to mine- principally whether you think a civil war, or more precisely secession, would have occurred in the absence of the issue of slavery?

I still maintain that without slavery, there would have been no Confederacy, and without the Confederacy there would have been no Stars and Bars. And that this is what makes it unique, and why it's not enough to dismiss it as merely a piece of cloth.

But I'm at pains to stress that I completely disagree with banning it! Even in the U.S. at the moment it is in the official capacity that it is being removed.

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 13/07/2015 12:08:34    1752421