Offside_Rule I did get a laugh at the Irish open when all the wee stalls were selling golf pin flegs! Keep er lit

Thankfully first time in years no new flegs are up in Derry City. Must have come to a senisble agreement for once :)

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 09/07/2015 10:44:20    1750325

Culchie,

the essential raison d'etre of the CSA was the continuation of slavery. Any rudimentary student of mid-19th century US politics is familiar with the alternative reasons proffered by Jeff Davis et al for secession. And why would he not? How could the Rebels expect succour from the crowned heads of Europe, were they to tell the truth? Because behind the facade, they realised how abhorrent the philosophy, even in 1860, of a man owning another man appeared to the rest of the world.

However, historians of any repute are agreed. Take away the issue of slavery, and there is no reason for the eleven states to secede.

And, to paraphrase Slick Willie, it was the economy stupid. The South bankrolled itself mainly on cash crops from the plantation, the chief being King Cotton. And what made it possible to sell at such profit? Slaves. No denying it. But if you offered them an army of super robots for abolition, they would have accepted it.

There was bleating about other causes, most famously 'states' rights', but apart from legislation for slavery, defenders remained coy on what were the other rights to which they alluded. The entire battle was mirrored nearly a century later, when Georgia's Richard Russell Jr. led the southern senators in their ultimately (and thankfully) futile battle to veto any Civil Rights bill's passage. The same rhetoric about Federal v State, the same separate but equal language of Dred Scott, the same intermittent slipping of the mask to show the phantom beneath.

So you're right about the Union being far from free of racism- sure didn't our relatives lead the Draft Riots of 1863 in New York, targetting the black population? And you're right about the flag at hand being the banner of the Army of Northern Virginia.

But there's one irrefutable deduction, one that singles the Rebel flag out from the pack. This flag would not exist, nor be so widely recognised, save for the founding of a country on this basis- that a man can own another man because of the colour of his skin. You can say what you like about all the other flags, indulge in a feed of whataboutery, but even the flag of the Third Reich is not as steeped in racism. It would still have flown without the Shoah, but that cannot be reasonably claimed for the Stars and Bars when it comes to slavery.

I've been reading the PROC thread for the last while (I believe you have posted a similiar contribution there), and surprisingly nobody has cited this rather large elephant in the room.

PS I think it's a beautiful flag, and I would not support a ban. I would prefer if people didn't fly it, but that's their right. But at the very least, they should be invited to understand why it is so unique in the way it offends.

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 09/07/2015 10:49:13    1750331

Gotta love the fleg DoireCity. At least we don't get bothered with them up lamp posts in the Glens - just Nathan Carter posters...

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 09/07/2015 11:15:54    1750350

True Brend,

And Daisy Duke probably doesn't look too good in them denim shorts anymore.

Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 09/07/2015 11:23:14    1750358

Stick to a golden harp on a field of green: beautiful; simple; effective.

OR
Keep flying the Indian flag sideways after the wheel's come off. He haw!

plike (Kerry) - Posts: 569 - 09/07/2015 12:34:08    1750409

Dubsfan28
County: Dublin
Posts: 880

1750358 True Brend,

And Daisy Duke probably doesn't look too good in them denim shorts anymore.
_______________________________
I'd say she'd be resembling Boss Hogg these days!

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 09/07/2015 12:47:02    1750418

an tseabhac...Im not disputing your knowledge of history, for a start im only a young lad, however your point about the confederate flag being steeped in racism is flawed.

Its hard to deny that one of the most racist groups to ever exist is the ku klux klan, fair point? They were distinctly prominent in two eras of american history the 1920's and 1960's, what was the flag of the ku klux klan? It was the american flag, the stars and stripes!!! the klan represented all levels of american society, policemen, judges politicasl class, and they represented themselves with the american flag because it was an all american society!!

Now please give this a try, go to google, type in "ku klux klan 1960's" or 1920's, go to images......you will see lots and lots of american flags but wheres is the confederate flag?

My point is, the banning of the confederate flag has nothing got to do with stamping out rasism

abitawit (Fermanagh) - Posts: 280 - 09/07/2015 13:25:23    1750447

plike I love the harp and green as much as most but the wee fleg we have at the min is there to try and unite all sections of our land

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 09/07/2015 13:45:08    1750459

an tseabhac,

Historians are absolutely not agreed that slavery was the root cause of the civil war. Indeed, the dominant consensus right now, is that the war was fought over control of the US legislature. The abolition/retention of slavery was one way in which Northern and Southern States could seek to control the houses, another option for the South was cessession. There's really no need to get into long explanations here, as I'm sure you've heard it all before. But anybody who hasn't, should look up the Louisian Purchase and you'll quickly understand why the issue of slavery, and that of States rights were always going to be intertwined within the Union. To simplify, the South did not want the North controlling their affairs. One of the methods by which they sought to control the Senate was the retention of slavery and its associated voting rights. When it became clear that this was going to come unstuck, they sought to control their own destiny by seceeding from the Union. Thus, the retention of slavery was never the objective of the Confederacy. The objective was control of their own legislation - the retention of slavery was merely a method by which they sougght to achieve that objective. Indeed, if memory serves, they stated that all States could make up their own minds on slavery, after the war. Given that many Southerners (including Lee) had freed their slaves, there is a very distinct liklihood that it would have been abolished accross the Confederacy, particularly as the Industrial Revolution advanced. Bear in mind that it was not abolished in the North until after Antietem, and one could argue that Linclons sole objective there was the recruitemnt of Slaves for the Federal army.

I reckon the idea that the Confederate flag is 'bad' and the Union flag 'good,' is kind of silly when based exclusively on nineteenth century evidence. Indeed the idea that the stars and bars represented anything other than the units that carried it (not all of whom were in the Army of Northern Virginia) is only partially true as well. So it is kind of complicated, and your suggestion that the war was fought over one group's desire to own other people, is very simplistic.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 09/07/2015 15:09:02    1750517

"I reckon the idea that the Confederate flag is 'bad' and the Union flag 'good,'"

Yup as we all know history is written by the victors

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 09/07/2015 15:14:33    1750524

Culchie, how is any of that related to Cork GAA ?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8193 - 09/07/2015 15:17:46    1750528

GreenandRed - it isn't.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 09/07/2015 15:37:18    1750545

So why give us a lesson in American history, unless maybe the River Lee was named after the good general.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8193 - 09/07/2015 16:00:26    1750560

GreenandRed, I was responding to a post by another poster - An tseabhac.

I apologise if I've done something to annoy you. That was not my intention. I felt some people might be interested in the origins of this debate - clearly , at least one or two were.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 09/07/2015 16:21:44    1750584

Culchie, on the contrary. No disrespect intended. Since I was brought home a Bicentennial book in the 70s from some American cousins I've had an interest in American history and visited a few monuments and buildings in the States though not enough. I just question why you put it on a GAA site.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8193 - 09/07/2015 16:39:03    1750600

Interesting debate between the Cork & Kerry lads who clearly have very good knowledge on the subject. Regardless of the origin of the flag or what it was intended to represent, it has become a cultural symbol of black repression for many people in the states, North & South. Its current racial undertones in modern american culture is simply undeniable. The idea of it been flown over government buildings in the South is mind blowing and outdated.

Having said that, the bars & stars does not carry the same symbolism is Ireland. (I'd wager a decent chunk of the population might not even know what it is.) A flag is just a piece of cloth if its carries no symbolism to the people. So personally I would have no problem with it been flown by Cork fans. I'm sure it was adopted by Cork fans due to its suitable color and name association with the rebels more-so than its current cultural representation of repression in some Southern american states!!

As other posters said, seeing some of the random flags fans have at games always makes me laugh. I don't like when they are flown to make political statements (Palestine for example) because I don't feel like its the right time or place for it. But I remember seeing the Japanese flag at a few Tyrone games which was funny. Also shout out to the Armagh fans who used to have a huge Orange banner with the words; "the orange-men are on the march again" hanging from the Creighton hotel in Clones around Ulster final day in mid-July. Always made me laugh.

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 09/07/2015 17:15:59    1750627

Well they are from the deep South :D
I doubt if all the Chinese Cork fans were happy with that Japanese flag KingdomBoy1

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8816 - 09/07/2015 17:47:52    1750645

I never understood where Cork got their Rebels nickname from anyway, must be one of these ironic nicknames like little John.Sure we started the war of independence in Soloheadbeg and you don't see us crowing about it.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 09/07/2015 18:25:51    1750656

Started but didn't finish

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 09/07/2015 19:41:09    1750679

Sadly Irish people have got drawn into an American argument that is nothing to do with us.
Americans take their flags very seriously.... apparently its an awful crime to even drop the stars and stripes on the ground.
Do we have to follow this nonsense?
I imagine Cork fans just like this piece of cloth because of the colour and pattern on it.... American slavery has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Most of the people carrying the flags haven't a notion what it means in America.... it has no context here apart from that given by the sensationalist media.

BIG SACKS (Tyrone) - Posts: 1681 - 09/07/2015 19:58:18    1750684