joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1539

1689462
Ormo and Mes, there are no specific "parts" of Dublin Im referring to, but i always found that things like the irish language, ceili music etc wouldnt be your average Dubs cup of tea. Theyd be seen more as rural pursuits, enjoyed by the boggers from out the way.
Maybe Im just reading too much Ian O Doherty.

First point:
The Irish language and céilí music aren't the "average culchies" cup of tea either.

Second point:
The Irish language, as well traditional music, are as strong in Dublin as anywhere else in the country. The future of the language in fact lies in Dublin (as well as other major cities) as it is where the majority of new speakers are coming from.

Third point:
A dislike of the Irish language, traditional music or indeed the GAA does not equate to not being Irish enough, or thinking that Irishness equals backwardness.

Fourth point:
Dublin is the rest of the country magnified. All the things that you can say about Dublin you can say about Galway, or Donegal or Wexford too in terms of attitudes towards GAA, soccer, language and culture.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 03/02/2015 09:21:20    1689487

Maybe its an urban rural thing. Fisrt point: They may not be the average culchies cup of tea, but they are still far more popular out in the sticks

Second point; True, but isnt that only because they are being imported by the culchies?

Third point: Disagree completely. When you equate the cornerstones of a nations indigenous culture with backwardness, you are equating that nation with backwardness. Never understood how some people believe that someone who doesnt give a damn about their heritage or their culture could be just as irish as someone who does. Simply dont understand that. Whats your definition of Irishness? Before you answer, dont forget that most people who slag off these things never give them a chance in the first place. They simply assume that they are no good, and in my opinion, that assumption is based on the fact that they are indigenous, and therefore irrelevant

Fourth point: Rubbish. If the good people of Dublin cared as much for the GAA as everyone else, theyd win the all Ireland every year.Are you honestly suggesting that if Dublin had Wexfords population the GAA in Dublin would still be big?

As I said, maybe its an urban rural thing

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 10:04:31    1689499

I agree with everything you say there MesAmis but there are also small pockets of Dublin where the 'dort' accent is prevalent, which has only really happened I believe since the 1970's and seems to have been created to allow the speaker disassociate themselves from the 'backward Irish' accent that surrounds them. The term 'bogball' is also something that you are far more likely to hear around these parts, which is a good indication of the common view of gaelic football. Having said all that, there are some excellent hurlers and footballers with this terrible accent, some good clubs in these areas, and some of the worst examples of people with this accent have only moved to Dublin from other parts of Ireland in the last few years!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 03/02/2015 10:06:27    1689500

joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1540

1689499
Maybe its an urban rural thing. Fisrt point: They may not be the average culchies cup of tea, but they are still far more popular out in the sticks

Second point; True, but isnt that only because they are being imported by the culchies?

Third point: Disagree completely. When you equate the cornerstones of a nations indigenous culture with backwardness, you are equating that nation with backwardness. Never understood how some people believe that someone who doesnt give a damn about their heritage or their culture could be just as irish as someone who does. Simply dont understand that. Whats your definition of Irishness? Before you answer, dont forget that most people who slag off these things never give them a chance in the first place. They simply assume that they are no good, and in my opinion, that assumption is based on the fact that they are indigenous, and therefore irrelevant

Fourth point: Rubbish. If the good people of Dublin cared as much for the GAA as everyone else, theyd win the all Ireland every year.Are you honestly suggesting that if Dublin had Wexfords population the GAA in Dublin would still be big?

As I said, maybe its an urban rural thing

You're massively over estimated the amount of Irish language in rural areas and massively under estimating the amount of Irish spoken in Dublin. Same goes for trad music.

Imported by culchies, if you mean are things like these being imported by culchies for the last a thousand years then yes they are. That's how a city works. Any city is its country magnified.

Your third point comes down to what you believe Irishness to be. There are many strands to that have nothing to do with trad music, Gaeilge and GAA. My definition of Ireland is to do with place, and experiences of that place and it is not a narrow thing but very broad.

The GAA may not be as big in Dublin proportionately as it is in SOME counties but it is still massive with the Dublin footballers being the biggest show in town. THe fact that a lot of people in Dublin or Galway do not watch GAA does not make Dublin or Galway less Irish or mean that people think that those Dubs or Galwegians who do not watch GAA or listen to trad or speak the cúpla focail

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 03/02/2015 10:48:45    1689510

Joncarter, I notice you did not reply to my historical point regarding the practicalities of establishing an actual nation, rather than a load of people sitting around a turf fire mumbling and terrified of their bejaysus of landlords, priests and men in uniform.

Thankfully we Dubs, along with the Munster people had the cojones to do something about it. Big shout to Wexford and Mayo historically as well :-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 03/02/2015 11:20:41    1689525

Im well aware of the trouble that our language is in Mes I can assure you. Of course people have been moving to Dublin since the year dot, but, dont alot of the current Dublin footballers have parents from outside of Dublin? Id say the same goes for most of Dublins Irish speakers. When i say imported by culchies Im referring to the more recent arrivals.
Your point about Irishness sounds like something a politician would say if theyre asked a question they dont know the answer to.
What, specifically, makes a person more or less Irish than another person? I simply believe that people who immerse themselves in the Irish culture are more Irish than those who dont. Thats my opinion. Yes, that is narrow, but ireland is a tiny nation in a vast world. Any definition of irishness would pretty much have to be narrow, otherwise there is no real definition of being Irish. We are all just citizens of the planet earth. Your opinion about experiences of the place etc. isnt great imo. Sure a backpacker stopping over for a week while on a tour of Europe would nearly fit into that category.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 11:25:54    1689529

I didnt even read that post hurlingdub.
Yeah, fair play to ye. Not denying that at all, but that doesnt disprove anything I have said with regard to the debate with mes.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 11:48:40    1689541

joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1541

1689529
Im well aware of the trouble that our language is in Mes I can assure you. Of course people have been moving to Dublin since the year dot, but, dont alot of the current Dublin footballers have parents from outside of Dublin? Id say the same goes for most of Dublins Irish speakers. When i say imported by culchies Im referring to the more recent arrivals.
Your point about Irishness sounds like something a politician would say if theyre asked a question they dont know the answer to.
What, specifically, makes a person more or less Irish than another person? I simply believe that people who immerse themselves in the Irish culture are more Irish than those who dont. Thats my opinion. Yes, that is narrow, but ireland is a tiny nation in a vast world. Any definition of irishness would pretty much have to be narrow, otherwise there is no real definition of being Irish. We are all just citizens of the planet earth. Your opinion about experiences of the place etc. isnt great imo. Sure a backpacker stopping over for a week while on a tour of Europe would nearly fit into that category.

Yes some Dublin footballers have parents from down the country, also a lot of them have parents from Dublin! Some of their parents even played for Dublin! Also I'm sure some of the Galway players have parents from outside of Galway too! Imagine that!

The exact same goes for Gaeilgeoirí Átha Cliath. Some of their parents may be from the country but many are not. That's, again how a city works. People move from the rest of the country to it.

If you narrow down what it is to be Irish, like you are doing, then actually it may be possible for a backpacker to experience it all in a week!

My point is that you can never have a narrow definition of what it means to be a nationality. The majority of Ireland cannot speak Irish to any decent level and the vast majority do not listen to traditional music. That does not make the majority less Irish than the minority as that would be a tad ridiculous. And saying this does not in any way diminish the importance of the language and music to culture but realised that things like that are part of the culture not THE culture.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 03/02/2015 12:03:18    1689554

Dont forget lads. wanting to kick out an oppressive occupier doesnt necessarily mean you love your own country. It just means you dislike another one.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 12:16:25    1689562

I doubt too many backpackers learn Irish and play GAA etc Mes.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 12:20:32    1689567

joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1544

1689567
I doubt too many backpackers learn Irish and play GAA etc Mes.

Just like a lot of Irish people then so.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 03/02/2015 12:26:58    1689570

Mes, what is THE culture then, and remember, for it to be part of the culture of Ireland, it must be distinguishable from the culture of any other nation, otherwise it is not really OUR culture.
And be specific.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 12:27:25    1689571

In regard to your most recent post comparing backpackers to irish people, Im not claiming that alot of irish people learn irish.
Im claiming that those who do are more irish than those who dont.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 12:55:19    1689594

Well, there are more people in Dublin who speak Irish than in Galway so we win. Yes, I checked the Census!

We also have more All Irelands, Nobel Prizes, world champions in boxing, athletics, snooker, and so on, and so forth ..... will I stop now :-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 03/02/2015 13:10:39    1689599

Personally i dont remember any Irish from school.Have no need for it.Never liked it.Im not a fan of Irish dancing,country music or riverdance.I do like ballads,politics,irish history and sport.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 03/02/2015 13:12:02    1689601

Fine by me cued, but at least be willing to embrace it first. you did, and you didnt like it, fair enough. Id say most people dont even give it a chance. Having no need for the Irish language isnt an argument. Ive had no need for 90% of the stuff Ive learned at school like since I left it. Why is it that the Irish language always gets singled out as being unnecessary?
Hurling dub, you do have a significantly greater population than us, so yes, there are more irish speakers there, but as I said, most of those Irish speakers are probably blow ins anyway.
were repeating ourselves at this stage.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 03/02/2015 13:39:14    1689615

joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1547

1689462
Ormo and Mes, there are no specific "parts" of Dublin Im referring to, but i always found that things like the irish language, ceili music etc wouldnt be your average Dubs cup of tea. Theyd be seen more as rural pursuits, enjoyed by the boggers from out the way.
Maybe Im just reading too much Ian O Doherty.

the irish language is pushed in dublin more so than probably any other area outside a gaelteacht region.
every public transport serivce annonces stops or info in irish first.
most establishments have their signs of notice in irish and english
and gael socils have grown significantly in dublin over the last decade.
tg4 currently employs 4 dubs on its programme in coman goggins, david henry, lima rushe and ciaran kilkenny
your just stereotyping and sound like country person who thinks dublin only exists from rte or a trip to grafton street or the zoo.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/02/2015 14:08:08    1689638

county man
County: Limerick
Posts: 779

1689477
Joncarter makes some sense. I think a lot of Dublin people would refer to soccer as "football". Most Dublin posters on here are GAA supporters and never would mix up the two, but that is my experience.
Getting back to the thread, in fairness I can defend RTE for not showing a pre-season O'Byrne cup match (and why are we just referring to the O'Byrne cup btw, the McGrath cup, FBD league & McKenna league were on too. The interest to all is limited outside the counties involved. However sending a reporter to the Superbowl makes no sense either. It is global to a degree but it's an American indigenous sport at the end of the day.

most people in every county in ireland would refer to soccer as football if they are not gaa people.
thats not a dublin thing thats all over and its down to the fact that tv calls soccer football
newspapers call soccer football
and they are mostly english media outlets so seenas they only have one sport in the uk where they kick a ball
thats why its labelled that.
the interest in them gaa competitions is higher than the intrest in the irish reserve rugby team
yet we are subjected to hearing and being reported on for them
would you not agree?

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/02/2015 14:12:28    1689639

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 832

1689500
I agree with everything you say there MesAmis but there are also small pockets of Dublin where the 'dort' accent is prevalent, which has only really happened I believe since the 1970's and seems to have been created to allow the speaker disassociate themselves from the 'backward Irish' accent that surrounds them. The term 'bogball' is also something that you are far more likely to hear around these parts, which is a good indication of the common view of gaelic football. Having said all that, there are some excellent hurlers and footballers with this terrible accent, some good clubs in these areas, and some of the worst examples of people with this accent have only moved to Dublin from other parts of Ireland in the last few years!

your right in your point about the dort as you put it type
they are almost all d4 upper class people though, aling with a few other pockets like howth
they represent about 5% of dublin, thats what annoys me most about people from the country
they see what rte or what a day trip to grafton street or the zoo and dont realise that thats only a minute vision of dublin.
its the same as people think limerick is moyross or southill full of trouble makers
when you go there and actualy see it for yourself you realise that they are two estates basically in a huge county
the point im making is the media and a day trip shape peoples opinion on a place without actually taking the time to
see or experiance the places properly for yourself.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/02/2015 14:18:56    1689646

joncarter
County: Galway
Posts: 1547

Hurling dub, you do have a significantly greater population than us, so yes, there are more irish speakers there, but as I said, most of those Irish speakers are probably blow ins anyway.

you would do well to remember that point when you go suggesting dublin should have every ireland because of the population.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/02/2015 14:23:15    1689648