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Cork Hurlers: 2014

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football and hurling are very very different games though. firstly even just to look onto the pitch it would be far easier to notice the "extra man" in hurling than football, because 90% of the time hurling is 15 on 15 man to man whereas in football there is so much interchanging of position and movement of player all over the field you wouldn't notice just to look as easily. thing is in football it is far easier to keep possession by use of the hand pass so overlapping runs and working back can cover for the man less. with hurling the way the game has developed it is very hard for a team to win with a man less unless there is a gulf in class between the teams. in the modern era the team with one player less will nearly always get caught out as it is played at such a high pace an intensity. then if a team has an extra man he will be played in the middle of the defense and if the correct type of player is used as cork did with conor o'sullivan its very hard to play against.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 22/01/2014 17:53:31    1535321

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disillusiondfan
County: Limerick
Posts: 1471
Ye could have won an all ireland ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

i think it should have be delusional fan. At absolutely no stage were ye in the game against clare none. The score line clare put up didnt show their true dominance. As regarding the Munster final the poster in here was right we would never know how that game would have turned out if it wasnt for that ridiculous red card. And someone commenting about the wind and the city end and what ever else jasus give me a break. that game could have gone either way and well done to limerick they had their chance and took it and in 20 years time thats what the record books will say Limerick were munster champions and ye should celebrate it.

But coming here claiming that ye could have won the all ireland my god.

The best team in ireland won the all ireland last year we gave it a right shot but poor decisions at vital times ment we just werent good enough and clare were. So they should celebrate that too.

P.S The gentleman commenting on the great injustice of Henry Sheflin remember this. The first yellow wasnt a yellow card i agree totally he caught the hurl not the hand. But Henry Sheflins sending off rests solely with henry sheflin. In full knowledge of the fact that he was on a yellow card he found himself in the half back line (which a shows the pressure cork had kilkenny under) with a hurley around a cork mans neck. As a man who made his intercounty debut in 1999 he had to know himself that this would get him sent off. So Sheflin was responsible for his sending off not the ref the exact same as ryan in the cork v dublin game. So dont equate that to what happened Horgan when the limerick players themselves said it didnt even warrent a yellow

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 22/01/2014 17:58:08    1535325

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RebelCork....

I seem to remember the Rushe incident happening after a Dublin player had been harshly sent off.

Rushe and many other players lost their cool over the decision, and yeah he should have seen the line.

But would he have done that if he didn't feel aggrieved about the number of nonsensical decisions the ref was giving Cork topped by a harsh sending off? Probably not.


hurlingexpert....

I couldn't disagree more. Its far harder to win a football match with 14 men! In hurling you can strike a ball 65 to 70 m to create a goal scoring chance and if you get to the halfway line you can score with the ability and striking distance of most county hurlers.

If you drop a man back one of the forwards helps out. But if you win the ball back within one pass you are in a scoring position. You cant do that in football.

Blanket defences and the running nature with the ball means that the extra man actually counts more.

Examples of 14 men winning playing more than a half are quite extreme in football. Dublin done it to Kildare two times in a row but that was only down to having superior forwards. All things being equal....the team with 15 usually beats the 14 in a tight football game if they use the extra man in attack or a sweeper around midfield. Hurling can bypass midfield......and you can score from the middle of the pitch.

You take PA Horgan out of that Cork team last year; like in the Limerick game and Cork are down lots of scores. If a lesser Cork player had been sent off they could have reshuffled and got the ball to PA and still won!!!

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JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 22/01/2014 18:45:27    1535346

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Ritchie we were well of the pace against Clare. My point was we can all come on here n say well if this was different or if that was different then sure this or that could happen. Nonsense. We won Munster n got badly beaten in semi. Both are facts but if someone says ah ye wouldn't have won Munster if this or that had happened is nonsense. We played semi after 6 week lay off. To say we would or could have played better if we had a quarter final is entirely as valid in my view as trying to say we could have lost Munster only for sending off. We all have to play cards we are dealt n accept results. I didn't start this Mealy mouthed attempts at demeaning teams or their achievements.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 22/01/2014 18:45:53    1535347

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No excuse what so ever. It was probably the dirtiest thing that happened in the championship and how you can say the ref was anyway bias after leaving him on the field i don't know. Everyone knows O'Dywer should have stayed on but it was a mistake the same way it was a mistake not to send Rushe off. I'm a big fan of Rush but himself and Dublin were done a huge favour.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 22/01/2014 21:44:23    1535420

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I might be going against the grain, but I thought all 3 high profile sendings off lst year were correct. Horgan made contact with the back of the head, maybe he was blinded by the sun or was awkward but I think it was correct sending off. Shefflin tapped McLoughlin on the elbow with his hurley - an old Kilkenny trick - deserved yellow.His second yellow was a little more borderline, but he did catch Coughlan around the neck.I know both of these were rescinded but I honestly don't think they should have been. O'Dwyer's sending off was the most clearcut of the three- two blatant frontal body charges, he knew exactly what he was doing both times. But how did the most obvious dirty stroke all year get away with only a yellow and Liam Rushe stay on the pitch? Eddie Keher has been bladdering on about red and yellow cards "destroying hurling" - but we had the best hurling championship in living memory last year and was far removed from the pulling and dragging rugbyleague-with-sticks that the game ha developed in to.

KeyserSoze (Cork) - Posts: 363 - 23/01/2014 10:30:51    1535489

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i do struggle to see you ryan o dwyer should have stayed on rebel cork.if He had picked up a booking soft or not he still had it and drew blood on the reckless challenge in the second half. Iv played and been involved in coaching for many years and everyone knows who ever put on a jersey knows if your on a yellow you must watch your self hell we have heard it enough but the commentary on big matches about players who pick up and early yellow.

Iv no sympathy for any player who get sent off for two yellows whether there from cork or any other county.

Ryan first yellow in my opinion was soft but on the same score by the letter of the law it was a booking but id still feel aggrieved if a cork player got it my point is simple any player on a yellow knows from years of training that if your on a yellow you must be careful and if you get sent off that lies completely with that player. The rushe incident should have been a straight red. Just because your frustrated doesnt gve you the right to try and intentionally hurt another player. It was reckless dangerous completely unnecessary and could have badly hurt horgan.

People were calling for red card for shane o neill in the kilkenny game but at least he swung in the general direction of the ball. Play was stopped when rushe lashed out.

Im very much call a spade a spade and will hold my team up for ridicule as much as the others. I think some people are afraid to do same with theirs out of loyalty but the facts are the facts rushe was a straight red no question. Ryan o dwyer had to be sent off as he was on a yellow and his challenge merited a second yellow simple as that.

Regarding the munster final. Limerick fans should take their win. Of course the sending off had a big bearing on the game. Corks top scorer and free taker was sent off. On a blistering hot day it was 14 v 15 and limerick used the spare man to the maximum. If the sendng off hadnt happened would the score line be different absolutely. Would cork have won i dont know would limerick have won i dont know that either but the fact of the matter is Limerick won !!!! and as a cork man once id calmed down i was delighted for limerick their a great hurling county with great tradition and was nice to see them get their rewards after knocking on the door for so long.

But i ask one thing of true hurling and football fans in here . Call it as it is. I know because of loyalty its hard to look at a fair perspective when one of your players does something wrong but stop with all the stuff about dwyer and sheflin as they were sent off for two bookables and in my opinion that makes them wrong not any one else. I think they have a responsibility to the team and they let their team down ..

regards

ritchie

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 23/01/2014 10:36:55    1535491

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Ritchie
You must be a gentleman too as you are the only personage that oh so correctly recognised me as one. However lets take a another at the careless pull that Pat Horgan drew on Paudie and you will see that he must not have his eye on the ball as when made contact with O'Brien's helmet as the ball was feet away on the opposite side of O'Brien whos focus was totally on the dropping ball. The fact that Paudie sought clemency for Pat speaks highly of him and is in sharp contrast with the fact that no Cork player or official, to my knowledge, sought similar consideration for Henry's situation in relation to his yellow card being rescinded.. I think it is also no coincidence that the Sec Gen of the GAA, Pauric Duffy has stated, in the past few days, that the whole policy of revoking these cards is going to be looked into again as some stronger counties seem to be getting preferential treatment in these revocations.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4517 - 23/01/2014 11:29:02    1535530

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Fair enough Ritchie. Good points on Ryan O'Dwyer and Liam Rushe but go one further on Shane O'Neill. There is absolutely no question that he deserved to be given a straight red card against Kilkenny. He might have been going for the ball but came nowhere near it and got all man with a dangerous strike. The same player against Clare in the first match deserved a straight red for a dangerous strike on Darach Honan's head (who I would also have booked as he was not without blame either) and to my mind Patrick Horgan's red card was deserved as well and should have been a red...the rule book does not account for accidents, being blinded by the sun etc (all of which they were and Horgan is a clean player and it can be frustrating that an inoccous tap carries a harder punishment than what say, Liam Rushe or Shane O Neill but the refs were told to clamp down, they did, but in typical GAA fashion players don't accept the rules, the question everything and as a result, after the Limerick game, players were getting away with all sorts..)

In my mind all the sending's off last year were deserved and players should accept their punishment. It is easy and frustrating in the GAA to see why our discipline system is a farce. We are all frustrated by certain incidents but we are all always the innocent victims and never the guilty parties.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/01/2014 11:50:07    1535548

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Oldtour man i suppose the reasoning why the sheflin didnt really receive all that much attention is basically because that was it in the championship for Kilkenny. I firmly believe that had sheflin not been sent off that cork would have won anyway and probably with a point or two more Cork were really on their game that day and this is illustrated by where sheflin was at the time of his sending off.And as iv stated in the previous post the player brought it on himself t was his decision and neglect that cost him his place on the field that day

Benny bunny. I really am not trying to be pedantic on the Patrick Horgan sending off. The pundits and limerick players including Niall Moran on the sunday game all stated it wasnt a sending off. But put that to one side in the second half the limerich corner back followed Luke o Farrell to the side line and as luke went to pick the ball up the corner back hurl connected with the top of o farrels helmet. Does that deserve a sending off in my opinion definitely not. Is it a sending off by the letter of the law yes it is . It is the same offence that Horgan saw red for. What caught Horgan was the fact that the poor limerick player took a woeful belt to the face from the sliotar and was completely justified in going to ground but from the refs point of view it looked like Horgans contact had caused the injury a fair mistake all in all

Now how about we let 2013 behind us and concentrate on 2014 cause i reckon it will be even better than 2014

And best of luck to all counties im sure ill be bitching at ye all at some stage during the year

Rebels abu !!!!

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 23/01/2014 12:56:26    1535593

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oldtourman

ok ok ok i know before i say this its kinda harsh i concede that straight away

But o brien cant have had complete focus on the ball it hit him in the head

I know i know a cheap shot for a bit of humor

im sorry im sorry but i couldnt resist ill go hang my head in shame

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 23/01/2014 13:13:58    1535615

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Yeah, must agree with the bulk of posts on here. The sendings off were harsh (as they almost always are) but that doesn't mean they weren't deserved. If you were at a club game (without the ability to analyse in detail), you'd expect that players who committed those offences would stand a very good chance of being sent off, and if they stayed on the field you'd say they were lucky. Decisions aren't always consistent, that's part of the game. But none of those sendings off were inexplicable and all three players would have known they were on thin ice as soon as they committed the offence. Shane O Neill also deserved to go against KK. There was a bit of gamesmanship (cuteness) from KK at midfield which nearly resulted in a goal, but it didn't excuse what O'Neill did. You cannot lash out like that and expect to stay on the field.

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 23/01/2014 13:18:42    1535617

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I agree that cork would have beaten kk if shefflin wasn't sent off. I agree that Shane o neill should have seen a straight red for his tackle on Honan. I was slow to say that I think ref made right decision on Horgan be ause no one else was sayin so and I thought I must have been wrong. I think he is a clean player but was being totally outplayed and a little frustration set in. He simply went for a ball he shouldn't have gone for in my view. I agree with the comment about the sec general. I think if limerick had lost a player in similar citcumstances to Horgan ( or any team outside top three) it is unlikely in my view the decision would have been revoked. As for rushe is it possible that ref wasn't sure he got it right with o Dwyer and then made an allowance( which analysts always urge them to do). Tough job being a ref I think either rushe or Dwyer woulda gone n cork woulda win either way. Dublin will be better for the e pertinence and are one of my 4 picks.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 23/01/2014 13:40:58    1535626

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Ritchie

Fair enough. very good points. I don't want to labour on it either. My main point is I suppose, if players are sent off (and ya Horgan's was soft), they need to accept it if there is a justification for that incident alone - rather than say, well he did this and got a yellow and I got a red (Richie Power of KK got a second yellow instead of straight red for a very similar incident against Dublin). We want to get consistency-I think everybody wants that and we should want to support referees but this will not happen when we get pundits-who do not necessarily know the rules - are wrongly claiming that referees got it wrong. I think only Michael Lyster (not a pundit) asked on the day of the main programme was the referee simply applying the rules? The answer was, well he was not using his common sense!? People say 'common sense' should be used when applying the rules - I agree - however, more often than not 'common sense' is the excuse that referees have for not applying the rules (for example the Kilkenny Tipp semifinal of 2012 where two or three of them should have seen the line but 'experts'like Ger Loughnane and Tomas Mulchay just calling it 'manly stuff')

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 23/01/2014 14:11:02    1535644

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Fair point though I spose he will say he woulda caught it n pointed it if he hadnot got the belt. Something similar happened to me long time ago u always need ready made excise

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 23/01/2014 14:11:46    1535645

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before i say this i just want to point out that limerick deserved to win munster.
oldtourman what are you talking about calling horgans red card a careless pull, have you ever played the game?? horgan put his hurley up in front of his hand as every forward is told to do, the sun was obviously in his eyes at the time and he TOUCHED the back of o'briens helmet, the ref was also fooled by the sound of the ball hitting o'brien on the front of the helmet which he clearly thought to be a strike from horgan. by the strict letter of the law it was a red card, but common sense should have prevailed - sending off was nonsense. shefflin and o'dwyers red card were red cards when you look at the strict letter of the law but for god sake if the rules are applied like that in every game there would be 4 or 5 red cards per game. hurling is a physical game if we enforce the rules as strictly as that its going to destroy the game. im sure if we looked at other games throughout the year we would find numerous incidents like those for the 4 yellow cards and not even frees would be given for the majority. shane o'neill should have been sent off twice and rushe also should have been sent off - of those i am certain.
also every player has every right to go for whatever ball he wants. anyone who doesn't go all out for every ball shouldn't be playing.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 23/01/2014 15:28:26    1535723

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Went for a ball he shouldn't have gone for because he wasn't gonna get it n was in danger of committing a foul which he did. 4 or 5 poster (not only old tourman) think it was a red. I can confirm at least one of us has played the game and

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 23/01/2014 16:15:08    1535755

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Did this also deserve a red because as far as i know he didn't get one? Then again i suppose he was only smashing his hurley off his faceguard, not even in the same league as Horgan's scandalous tap on the back of the helmet.

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RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 23/01/2014 16:42:09    1535772

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paudie o'brien went for it and he didnt get it either because it hit him on the head! does that mean everyone should run away from the ball because there is a chance they might not get it. every time a player goes for a ball there is a danger of committing a foul, but no player at any level goes out and says "well i might concede a foul if i go for this ball so i'll just let my opponent have this 1" because if someone did say that it would be a long time before they play again. as i said by the strict letter of the law it was a red card, but if the rules are always applied like that we would have 4 or 5 red cards per game.
rebelcork i wasnt at the game but after seeing the pictures i cant believe how a red card was not given. hurley literally wrapped around his head, crazy stuff.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 23/01/2014 16:56:00    1535784

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Team to play UCC in challenge cup.

1. Anthony Nash (Kanturk); 2. Shane O'Neill (Bishopstown), 3. Stephen McDonnell (Glen Rovers), 4. Killian Murphy (Erin's Own); 5. Eoin Keane (St. Finbarr's), 6. Mark Ellis (Millstreet), 7. William Egan (Kilbrin); 8. Paul Haughney (Midleton), 9. Lorcán McLoughlin (Kanturk); 10. Brian Lawton (Castlemartyr), 11. Cian McCarthy (Sarsfields), 12. Michael O'Sullivan (Tracton); 13. Stephen Moylan (Douglas), 14. Patrick Horgan (Glen Rovers), 15. Jamie Coughlan (Newtownshandrum).
Subs: 16. Stephen Nyhan (Courcey Rovers), 17. Stephen White (Ballygarvan), 18. Christopher Joyce (Na Piarsaigh), 19. Daniel Kearney (Sarsfields), 20. Michael Cahalane (Bandon), 21. Luke O'Farrell (Midleton).

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 23/01/2014 17:04:46    1535794

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