Richieq
County: Meath
Posts: 1382

1522333
Richieq
County: Meath
Posts: 1379

It doesn't need to be a big vanity project, why is it that when a home ground for Dublin is discussed people insist on using terms like "vanity" and "white elephant". A MODEST sized ground capable of holding 20'000 to 25'000 would be ideal for most of Dublin's needs and their players do deserve a dedicated central training area I would think with outdoor and indoor facilities, Dublin agreeing with and investing in an existing club ground or college facilities for these matters could provide more than suitable facilities for training and matches, so please less of the "white elephant" excuses no one is looking for the like of that

Richie

It would be a vanity project. All the money the DCB have at the moment is earmarked already. For example they've pretty much spent the AIG money (as in they know exactly where it is going). The vast bulk going to games development, coaching etc.

I, along with most Dubs I think, would rather the money goes into more practical things than redeveloping Parnell and building a training centre when realistically there is no need.

I beg to differ, Dublin have no suitable county ground of their own a fact I find somewhat astonishing, and no dedicated training and development centre. All counties have money earmarked for various things such as youth development and coaching, infrastructural development requires special fundraising and grant applications. Are Dublin forever more to use Croke Park for all their fixtures?? Are they never to develop a modest sized ground for league and qualifier matches for their footballers and hurlers?? Why should this be allowed be the case, one county playing consistently at HQ is wrong and I will continue that mantra until I'm blue in the face (no pun intended). I applaud the work done at underage and club coaching in Dublin in both codes and the rewards are being reaped but in no way should Dublin regard Croke Park as their home forever more, financial reasoning should never override fairness and I find such a thought appalling

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I don't think any Dublin fan regards CP as the Dubs home ground. There are various considerations in making a decision to allow Dublin play home league games at HQ..
- the obvious one is that no other GAA ground in the capital can facilitate 20000+
- promotional opportunity for the games in what was traditionally a low media presence part of the calendar
- money generated for the general betterment of the games
- justifies the existence of CP outside of summer GAA

If you look at the alternatives.

1. Develop Parnell Park to triple it's capacity to circa 30k. I would have thought that this was not possible due to the lack of space. The Neller is surrounded by houses, a school, a church so I presume that serious expansion is not an option

2. Build a new ground. No business case for this and could not be justified for the 3 games or so a year that the footballers use CP for in the league.

3. Sell the Neller and develop a new alternative. A plausible option in the days of the Celtic tiger but apart from the sentimentality of losing the traditional home I don't think the DCB would sell in the current economic climate anyway.

So all in all the issue of Dublin not having a suitable county ground is not astonishing in the current environment. To claim that is to look at the situation as Bertie would have looked at soccer when proposing the Bertie bowl. Now the soccer team gets about 20000 to games. Dublin may only get 10000 to league games next year in which case Parnell Park will be adequate.

Spend the money on developing the games I say not Bertie bowl like vanity projects which are not financially viable anyway.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 10/12/2013 18:51:26    1522402

I don't think any Dublin fan regards CP as the Dubs home ground. There are various considerations in making a decision to allow Dublin play home league games at HQ..
- the obvious one is that no other GAA ground in the capital can facilitate 20000+
- promotional opportunity for the games in what was traditionally a low media presence part of the calendar
- money generated for the general betterment of the games
- justifies the existence of CP outside of summer GAA

If you look at the alternatives.

1. Develop Parnell Park to triple it's capacity to circa 30k. I would have thought that this was not possible due to the lack of space. The Neller is surrounded by houses, a school, a church so I presume that serious expansion is not an option

2. Build a new ground. No business case for this and could not be justified for the 3 games or so a year that the footballers use CP for in the league.

3. Sell the Neller and develop a new alternative. A plausible option in the days of the Celtic tiger but apart from the sentimentality of losing the traditional home I don't think the DCB would sell in the current economic climate anyway.

So all in all the issue of Dublin not having a suitable county ground is not astonishing in the current environment. To claim that is to look at the situation as Bertie would have looked at soccer when proposing the Bertie bowl. Now the soccer team gets about 20000 to games. Dublin may only get 10000 to league games next year in which case Parnell Park will be adequate.

Spend the money on developing the games I say not Bertie bowl like vanity projects which are not financially viable anyway.


I'm afraid I know plenty of Dubs who regard Croke Park as home and are never shy of telling me such, I remember hearing some vicious growling about the amount of "westies" polluting Hill 16 on final day too. With regard to your points I am aware that Parnell Park is restricted in how far it can be expanded however if capacity was doubled I believe to 20'000 it would be a viable ground, a whole rebuild may not be necessary as I also believe that the Slattery Report cut capacity due to safety issues. Resolve those issues regarding entry and exit to and from the ground, add a second tier, or extend the existing tier, to the rear of the stand and see what more the terracing could accommodate and you mightn't be far off a viable capacity, such should at least be looked into. The need for a new ground should not just revolve around the footballers, you happen to have a pretty fine hurling team and strong underage teams in both codes all of whom have attracted sizeable crowds, crowds of a size that create a great atmosphere in Donnycarney but a dismal one on Jones Road. I'm of a vintage that can remember Parnell Park before it's redevelopment resplendid with grassy knolls and galvanise sheeting for cover, the truth is Dublin never had a proper viable county ground in any economic climate, and I doubt many Dubs would have oozed sentimentality if that version of the ground had been sold in exchange for a new home. Dublin have more options than most in relation to developing a cost effective modest capacity ground, not a Bertie Bowl or a White Elephant or a Vanity Project. I wouldn't see developing a mid 20'000 capacity ground for the Dubs as anything of the like

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 10/12/2013 20:03:51    1522428

With all this money being pumped into development etc one wonders why two Kildare schools were in the semi-final of Dublin A Schools Football.

Are the GAA getting bang for the buck at all?

sedico (Kildare) - Posts: 1682 - 11/12/2013 09:29:02    1522474

Richie

What need is there for these vanity projects of yours. We could build some fancy new training complexes to keep up with the Jones' or we could continue to use the excellent facilities that exist in or around Dublin.

Parnell is a fine ground and perfect for club championship as well as some inter-county games. For other games we can have the use of Croke Park which makes sense. You are wrong in that Croke Park does belong to us, same as it belongs to Meath, Mayo etc.

We shouldn't spend money when there is clearly no need.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 11/12/2013 09:48:04    1522478

Richie

How the hell would a stadium with a capacity of mid 20k will enough for Dublin supporters...??

We would need one of 40k to house our fans for both League and Championship games, and maybe then you would get your wish and we wouldn't be playing in Croke Park all the time...

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 10:23:07    1522484

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 6696

1522478
Richie

What need is there for these vanity projects of yours. We could build some fancy new training complexes to keep up with the Jones' or we could continue to use the excellent facilities that exist in or around Dublin.

Parnell is a fine ground and perfect for club championship as well as some inter-county games. For other games we can have the use of Croke Park which makes sense. You are wrong in that Croke Park does belong to us, same as it belongs to Meath, Mayo etc.

We shouldn't spend money when there is clearly no need.

Firstly I don't think anyone will ever accuse Dublin of trying to keep up with the Jones', yes Croke Park does belong to us all equally, that's my argument, if such is the case everyone should have the opportunity to play in it equally and no one county, any county, should have such a monopoly on its facilities. If you think that developing a centralised regular training facility and a MODEST I'll say it again so it's understood MODEST county ground, not a huge trophy stadium, then I can't debate any more with you, it's not anti Dublin bias on my part it's telling it as I see it

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 14:32:12    1522595

Fionn
County: Dublin
Posts: 543

1522484
Richie

How the hell would a stadium with a capacity of mid 20k will enough for Dublin supporters...??

We would need one of 40k to house our fans for both League and Championship games, and maybe then you would get your wish and we wouldn't be playing in Croke Park all the time...

If you pay heed to my previous posts you will note that I am referring to Dublin playing League matches in Croke Park, not Championship, although I would applaud the thinking of most Dubs who would like a road trip at the start of the Championship, if Laois overcome Wicklow next summer then Dublin v Laois in Portlaoise in 2014 would have been ideal, but alas no. Now with regards to capacity I'll tell you why 20'000 odd would be enough, Parnell Park as it is has been deemed big enough for your hurlers this coming League, take what you want from that decision, and Dublin' biggest crowds always come in the Summer when most of their games have been in Croker and all games since 2005, winter attendances have often been well down save for the big special event League matches of some years back, some of last years attendances being particularly low

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 14:41:29    1522604

Richieq
County: Meath
Posts: 1386

Don't think you're being anti-Dublin in any way. I understand your point but I think money is better spent on other things at the moment instead of expensive unnecessary things.

Croke Park is all ours and can be used by anyone.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13833 - 11/12/2013 14:48:19    1522607

Fionn
County: Dublin
Posts: 543

1522484
Richie

How the hell would a stadium with a capacity of mid 20k will enough for Dublin supporters...??

We would need one of 40k to house our fans for both League and Championship games, and maybe then you would get your wish and we wouldn't be playing in Croke Park all the time...

If you pay heed to my previous posts you will note that I am referring to Dublin playing League matches in Croke Park, not Championship, although I would applaud the thinking of most Dubs who would like a road trip at the start of the Championship, if Laois overcome Wicklow next summer then Dublin v Laois in Portlaoise in 2014 would have been ideal, but alas no. Now with regards to capacity I'll tell you why 20'000 odd would be enough, Parnell Park as it is has been deemed big enough for your hurlers this coming League, take what you want from that decision, and Dublin' biggest crowds always come in the Summer when most of their games have been in Croker and all games since 2005, winter attendances have often been well down save for the big special event League matches of some years back, some of last years attendances being particularly low

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 15:11:33    1522619

Look Richie, you build/develop a stadium to hold 20000 or so and in a few years you are back to square one.
So No, 20000 will not be big enough. End of.
There is no long term thinking in your suggestion.!
Short term fixes will come back to bite you in the ass.

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 15:38:10    1522634

Richie.
Firstly I don't think anyone will ever accuse Dublin of trying to keep up with the Jones', yes Croke Park does belong to us all equally, that's my argument, if such is the case everyone should have the opportunity to play in it equally and no one county, any county, should have such a monopoly on its facilities.

What exactly is your argument.. You state that everyone should have the opportunity to play in it equally, yet in your previous posts when I suggested Meath and Kildare look to play some of their league games there as part of double headers, you ridiculed it with all your why why why's........
Then in another post you said that Dublin were diluting Croke Park by playing in it so often and that Corke Park should only be used for major games and not the likes of the Spring Series.

So what is your point here exactly..???
Use Croke Park equally or only keep it for the major games and let it sit idle for most of the year....
Make your mind up..

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 15:44:57    1522639

What exactly is your argument.. You state that everyone should have the opportunity to play in it equally, yet in your previous posts when I suggested Meath and Kildare look to play some of their league games there as part of double headers, you ridiculed it with all your why why why's........
Then in another post you said that Dublin were diluting Croke Park by playing in it so often and that Corke Park should only be used for major games and not the likes of the Spring Series.

So what is your point here exactly..???
Use Croke Park equally or only keep it for the major games and let it sit idle for most of the year....
Make your mind up..

Never said Dublin were diluting it, the playing of so many league games by anyone in it dilutes it, again if you read my posts correctly you will note I said no county should have a monopoly on Croke Park. Furthermore I have stated I'm against rounds of the league being played in Croke Park, again by anyone, as each county should have a sufficent county ground to hold league games. Playing league games for anyone there dilutes the achievement of reaching Croke Park, a much strived for goal of a lot if counties. If you think I was ridiculing your post about Meath & Kildare playing in Croker then you are overly sensitive my friend, I answered your suggestion with what I thought were valid points, you gave no direct reply and now say I was ridiculing you?? I think I've been pretty clear in my views here, I have no need to make up my mind on anything but in case anyone needs clarity here we go.......I'm against playing rounds of the league in Croke Park by any county save for the most special of occasions and I do believe Dublin playing there consistently in all competitions bar the O'Byrne Cup gives them an unfair advantage as I see it, others see it differently that's fine but this is how I see it

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 16:01:42    1522647

Richie.
Now with regards to capacity I'll tell you why 20'000 odd would be enough, Parnell Park as it is has been deemed big enough for your hurlers this coming League, take what you want from that decision, and Dublin' biggest crowds always come in the Summer when most of their games have been in Croker and all games since 2005, winter attendances have often been well down save for the big special event League matches of some years back, some of last years attendances being particularly low


Well I will tell you that 20,000 will NOT be enough to hold the Dubs supporters in a home football league game anymore.
Our Season Ticket holders and Parnell Passes sold close to that amount alone.
As regards the Hurlers support base, yes it is small but would you have a stadium of 20k to be enough for the hurlers but not enough for the footballers....
Your suggestion doesnt stand up..!

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 16:05:59    1522652

Richie
That makes a lot of sense... NOT. Why would you have a gem of a stadium sitting idle for most of the year ?
Use it and the more the merrier by any county who choose to apply to do so.

As for the Diluting the Achievement of Reaching Croke Park, you are living in dream world.
Small counties who play games there whether it be league, qualifier or whatever should be allowed to play there.
The GAA should be applauded for opening up Croke Park for more and more games and for giving our games more profile and exposure.

Would you prefer only Leinster Finals and All Ireland Semi's and Finals there...
See how far the that would get the GAA coffers....

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 16:15:32    1522659

The GAA should be applauded for opening up Croke Park for more and more games and for giving our games more profile and exposure.

Would you prefer only Leinster Finals and All Ireland Semi's and Finals there...
See how far the that would get the GAA coffers....

Firstly there are not many counties that I know of applying to use it as they realise the importance of "local income" in their own stadia and towns in which they are situated, secondly the GAA appear to have very little interest in having anyone other than Dublin play League matched there and if others are asked ala Kildare last year it's to suit Dublin's Spring Series and nothing else. Thirdly over the past few years Croke Park had held matches such as League semi finals & finals in both codes, Leinster semi finals & finals in both codes, qualifier matches fixed together in both codes, All Ireland quarter finals in both codes as well as the club finals in March, add the income generated by conference & banquet facilities on a near daily basis with the odd concert thrown in for good luck and believe me the GAA don't be stuck for money so I can't see why you make the point about Croke Park being idle, it is anything but even at this time of year

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 16:59:06    1522687

Richie
over the past few years Croke Park had held matches such as League semi finals & finals in both codes, Leinster semi finals & finals in both codes, qualifier matches fixed together in both codes, All Ireland quarter finals in both codes

Oh and is that not as you say... Diluting the Achievement of Reaching Croke Park...???
Also, did meath not play monaghan in a divisional final there. Would you say that is enough of an achievement to play the game in Croke Park ..??

As regards the Spring Series, all League Receipts go into the national pot so Kildare being invited was not only for Dublin's benefit...

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4398 - 11/12/2013 17:08:48    1522697

Richie
over the past few years Croke Park had held matches such as League semi finals & finals in both codes, Leinster semi finals & finals in both codes, qualifier matches fixed together in both codes, All Ireland quarter finals in both codes

Oh and is that not as you say... Diluting the Achievement of Reaching Croke Park...???
Also, did meath not play monaghan in a divisional final there. Would you say that is enough of an achievement to play the game in Croke Park ..??

As regards the Spring Series, all League Receipts go into the national pot so Kildare being invited was not only for Dublin's benefit...

I dont know if you have difficulty reading but I stated very very clearly my problem was with the playing of rounds 1-7 of the League in Croke Park, League finals are national finals I have no problem with them and never stated that I did, I have clearly stated that I believe dilution comes by a county playing its home league matches in the GAA premier stadium, and yes an argument could be made that some Leinster, qualifier and quarter finals and league semi finals should be played elsewhere but why would you make a point about Croke Park being idle at one stage and then when I highlight the fixtures actually being played there you come around to my dilution theory?? The Spring series is to Dublin's benefit by playing all their home matches in Croke Park giving them and their young players immediate familiarity with the place, that's unfair in my view, indeed last year they had 5 home games, that's really fairness and equality now isn't it.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 17:39:07    1522736

Well you have to suggest viable alternatives. You suggested doubling the capacity at the Neller. Even if that was physically possible, given the limited space, 18000k wouldn't leave much after the season tkts and Parnell pass allocation is taken. The only alternative would be a new stadium vanity project and this makes no sense in the current climate. If the real issue here is the unfair usage of CP by the dubs then the argument is pretty weak in the context of the 3 or 4 league games that Dublin may play there, in the dark, with a 3/4 empty stadium and probably with a team half full of non-starters come Summer. Not exactly conditions that would mimic a LSFC game I would think. Again other counties I'm sure can make their case to use CP for the league just like Dublin. If they don't then it's hardly the DCB's fault and reason to shell out millions on a vanity project.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 11/12/2013 18:56:21    1522773

Well you have to suggest viable alternatives. You suggested doubling the capacity at the Neller. Even if that was physically possible, given the limited space, 18000k wouldn't leave much after the season tkts and Parnell pass allocation is taken. The only alternative would be a new stadium vanity project and this makes no sense in the current climate. If the real issue here is the unfair usage of CP by the dubs then the argument is pretty weak in the context of the 3 or 4 league games that Dublin may play there, in the dark, with a 3/4 empty stadium and probably with a team half full of non-starters come Summer. Not exactly conditions that would mimic a LSFC game I would think. Again other counties I'm sure can make their case to use CP for the league just like Dublin. If they don't then it's hardly the DCB's fault and reason to shell out millions on a vanity project.

Read back through my posts and you will see I did mention alternatives such as partnership with club or college grounds similar to what was planned in Louth, costs could be divided and I'm sure Central Council would view such a development as viable. Any game played in Spring in Croke Park by a team is a help, the Dubs had 5 "home" matches there last year with a lot of players who became starters or important subs in the Championship so I don't buy that at all I'm afraid and anyway a lot of your league games last Spring were harder than those in the LSFC as I recall Westmeath and Kildare were somewhat one sided in your favour, vanity is a word I would never have thought Dublin supporters would use but by God it's getting some outing here, certain counties have gone for vanity projects on grounds they already had decent capacity and indeed over developed, putting a county ground of reasonable size in Dublin is not vanity it's common sense

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3750 - 11/12/2013 19:24:47    1522785

We're talking about scale here Richie. Are you seriously suggesting that Dublin could partner with a club or college to build a 30000 seater stadium because that's what would be required? There are only a handful of grounds across all sports in this country that could handle that capacity so not an option. Regarding Dublin's league matches, are not some counties switching their games to CP to play Dublin under the lights in the league given the opportunity? Again not the DCB's fault. Dublin have no alternative but to play in CP at the moment given capacity requirements. There is no sensible alternative at present.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 11/12/2013 20:04:03    1522791