Capitalist - the best team won the all Ireland. We can crow about easy passages, no forwards, not kicking points etc etc till the cows come home but Dublin were the better team. Yeah we could have beaten ye but weren't good enough. simple as that.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11550 - 05/01/2014 18:21:52    1527928

Yew_tree, that could be said about almost any game. Then there would be no point in discussion. Mayo had played magnificently through the whole championship, and when it was put up to them in the semi, they answered the questions. The final was tight and no doubt the sweltering weather and the over-fussy ref didn't help, the question though that remains unanswered is why so many Mayo players looked flat and lacking pace or sharpness after the first 20 minutes. And why they made some of the decisions that they did. In answer to the original post, these are the questions that need answering/resolving for Mayo to win Sam.

And the point about not needing standout leaders on the team hasn't really been answered either. Regardless of the final, next year and the majority of years a team will need such players to win a game for them at least twice in the year where they won't be so far ahead that the game is over. So there can be no assumption that the scores will be got to win the biggest games this year, such games could come at any time from the Qtr Finals or the qualifiers onwards.

Capitalist (Dublin) - Posts: 47 - 05/01/2014 19:42:37    1527971

Before you go on with any more of that deep thinking capitalist, it is worth pointing out that the year before mayo did beat dublin and this year they lost by a point...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/01/2014 20:08:59    1527986

Not sure of the relevance of your post to my points Master. Would you care to say what you think about the things that I feel Mayo need to consider as to why they didn't win the final and how they might win Sam this year?

Capitalist (Dublin) - Posts: 47 - 05/01/2014 20:33:03    1527992

Yes they can

Arover1 (Louth) - Posts: 72 - 05/01/2014 21:06:52    1528017

Capitalist
County: Dublin
Posts: 29

1527992 Not sure of the relevance of your post to my points Master. Would you care to say what you think about the things that I feel Mayo need to consider as to why they didn't win the final and how they might win Sam this year?

yes themaster I would like to here your views on the above as well??

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2842 - 05/01/2014 21:49:26    1528034

The point is capitalist, that after dublin's loss against mayo last year, you could have had an even longer list about their failings. Those same lads won sam this year. Therefore, that would indicate that drawing up hard fast rules in the wake of a loss doesnt tell the full story, or even much of the story. Every team has failings, every team will not perform for periods in games, every team has weaker areas, so really pointing these things out about one team, simply because they lost isnt really fair, nor does it tell the full story, as every team has faults to factor in. They lost by a point and easily could have drawn or even won. Therefore they cant be that far of the mark can they? These 'matter-of-fact' posts where a guy says teams need a, b, and c before they will win, to me, just illustrates what they dont know about the game, more than what they do know. They lost by a point and kicked away easy chances to win, obviously a, b and c arent all that important now are they? Maybe that indicates that there is more than 1 way to do things? This garbage about 'a team needs a marquee forward', 'a team needs a strong fullback line', they actually dont. Far more depends upon the team as a whole. If they are very tight at the back they mightnt need as much up front for example. Dublin showed that you dont need a strong full back line. History tells us what you need - a winning formula - not a team without a single weakness, such a team has never existed.

The thing that illustrates perfectly the issue with what you are doing is the difference between this years game and last years. Last year the best player on the park was alan dillon, the second best was kevin mcloughlin. Michael Conroy had a big influence also. This year the same guys didnt perform and were out of sorts. A comparison of hard fast rules after both games might provide interesting reading...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 06/01/2014 10:29:32    1528065

There's nobody suggesting any hard fast rules for anything Matser, I think that's clear in my post. I myself clearly said the whole marquee forward thing is no more than a clichee. I've never agreed with "forwards win games", because without good defensive strategy and players, you lose. I understand the sentiment, that only forward skill to beat defensive strategy can make the real difference, where that can't be taught, but defence can, but the game has changed and I don't agree with it, far too simplistic. I agree with you 100% that "a winning formula" is always the way a team wins, though sometimes the rub of the green, or major refereeing decisions can be a big factor too.

I certainly never suggested Mayo were far off. In fact, the fact they were far from far off is in part why I have focussed on what went wrong for them, rather than on what went right for Dublin, or who was "the better team on the day" (a cop-out comment of ever there was one).

What I said is that alot of the things other people gave as reasons were not the most relevant to me, rather that, as Kevin McStay himself says, at the start of the 2nd half Mayo didn't seem geared to produce the level of performance they had up til that game, especially in that period. Yet at half-time there was all to play for, and no indication that Mayo would let up. Yet they did, clearly.
To me it's a simple question of looking at why that happened, as a major indicator towards what they could do/change the next time. I suggested something to do with training and the heat. I would also question whether the immediate lead up to the final had drained them, though you would imagine that would have shown at the very start. Maybe it didn't because Dublin were worse. Yet why were Dublin so bad then? People have often spoken about nerves, well there's always nerves.

By the way it wasn't just the same lads as last year, and in any case, last year was clearly a case of post-All-I celebration syndrome. This year neither team in the final had that issue, like last year. A comparison with last year's final is interesting, because many people focussed on the bad start by Mayo, and then the fact that they were well up to speed for at least 95% of the game. Yet this year they started really well, were well in it, but then dropped off markedly. It clearly points towards some sort of fatigue, and I'm most curious to know was it training/heat only or a mix of that and mental factors (pre-game distraction, pressure to win etc)
(In fact, funnily enough, it reminds me of fairly early in the 2nd half of the semi-final last year, Mayo dropping off markedly but probably for very different reasons).

I don't see much comparison otherwise between the two games. Dublin came into that semi in fairly poor form and Mayo were 10 points ahead at one stage. Dublin fought back massively as Mayo faded out of the game and missed great chances to kill it off.
The final this year was quite different in most ways. Both teams were playing about the same level by half-time. There was no hint of what was to come.
No, Mayo were never winning that final Master, the way they played in the 2nd half. They only got close at the end because Dublin had walking wounded and had to just defend the lead. McQuillan did what he did all day and gave Mayo some handy frees, along with all of the obvious ones. Remember, Dublin also missed several very good chances, should have had another 2 goals.

And all teams have some players in and out of form, these things have to be included in the "overall". There's nothing wrong with looking for some standout factors. If it was that a couple of the main leaders and best players year in year out were not playing due to injury, that would be a major factor.
Overall I'd most like to know what people feel about the Mayo team's fitness and lack of energy in that 2nd half.

Capitalist (Dublin) - Posts: 47 - 06/01/2014 12:38:48    1528118