Yes. And so "can" every other county who enter the competition.

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 02/12/2013 14:22:37    1519796

MesAmis
Disagree that BB's first goal was as lucky as being made out by Master. Following his logic would mean every score ever was lucky.

No definately not. You are trying to generalise when in fact you should be looking at the specifics. Look at brogan's goal compared to say mannion's goal against kerry. He was very much caught under it. He didnt get to put direction on it either. That isnt a criticism, he simply couldnt do it the way it came in and what was happening around him. So the best he can do is get a firm hand under it and hope the momentum carries it, which is what he did. It is akin to mimicing a hop of a ball, where his hand acted as the ground and the ball hopped off his hand and on towards the goal. Now say what you like, but the reality is there is an element of luck involved in that kind of a move, by definition. It could loop over or under the bar just as easily. Mannion however, got direction and control onto the ball, which had far less of a luck element involved. The ball went where mannion sent it, whereas in the brogan example he just got himself in under it, got a hand under it and hoped for the best. Now he did exhibit skill in getting to it keeping it going, but as to whether it went over or under is something he didnt really have control over.

Jimbo, I agree that it turned the game, that doesnt add anything to the specifics of the goal itself though. Also, we are talking about 'marquee forwards', yet you are placing praise on paul flynn - it is brogan who is known as dublin's marquee forward, so what paul flynn did doesnt prove that marquee forwards win you games. In fact it is eroding away the point, as you are basically saying a non-marquee forward made a telling contribution to what set the teams apart.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/12/2013 14:23:36    1519798

I'm not trying to prove anything about Marquee forwards...

Mayo were just beaten by the better team on the day... no harm in that... Mayo did the same in 2012 to Dublin

I'm merely stating that his goal was anything but routine.

It most clearly wasn't and Paul Flynn's ball was far from a hail Mary or some sort of fluke that has been previously stated

It was a game changing pass and he 100% meant to pick out Brogan

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 02/12/2013 15:25:26    1519826

It was a game changing long ball by Flynn. If the Mayo full back and goalkeeper weren't so inept at defending it would've come to nothing. The reason Flynn got ball in first place was because of a dreadful turnover by Dillon. Time to move on though. Too much details being debated at nauseating levels.

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 02/12/2013 16:01:54    1519846

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 6658

1519744
I agree on the marquee forward business with Master. Mayo don't need a single marquee forward, they just need more consistency from those already there. Too many have gone missing in the last 2 All-Ireland Finals when the going got tough.

Disagree that BB's first goal was as lucky as being made out by Master. Following his logic would mean every score ever was lucky.


Its a semantical argument with no totally valid answer! Perhaps if Mayo's current forwards were more consistent they would be labelled marquee! But then again some will argue that its Brogans et al's consistency and ability to deliver on the big occasions that separate them! Its not clear whether you definitely need a marquee forward to deliver an All Ireland. But stating the obvious, you need to outscore your opposition, and inadvertently your forwards do most of the scoring!

Its a bit like a free taker; i don't think you definitely need a great free taker to win an All Ireland, but it certainly helps and improves your chances! I could see a team winning an All Ireland without a marquee forward or free taker, but the task simply becomes harder, and by extension less likely!

Most, if not all winners have top marksmen, but whether its just a label put on a winners forwards of is a prerequisite present in some players is not initially clear. Personally, i'd rather have a Brogan or a Cooper on my team than not!

Regarding Brogans goal. Did the Mayo keeper make an error? Its debatable, as two issues are at play; his decision to come off his line and his application when off it. I was a keeper long ago and you live and die by your decisions in that position. Once you decide to leave your line you must clear the ball. If you clear the ball its a good decision, if you fail and concede a goal its a bad one! The timeframe to decide when to stay or go happens in a very short space of time! Once you commit you fully commit, getting caught in no mans land is the worst possible scenario. Its the tightrope all keepers walk. I wouldn't blame the Mayo keepers decision, but his application did cost his side a score. Brogans goal was opportunistic, but it wasn't Brogans good fortune that the Mayo keeper made an error of judgement! That doesn't constitute luck as every player is responsible for his decisions. Brogan was responsible to following the ball in and attacking it. His got his reward and his opportunism is the mark of any good player!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 02/12/2013 16:03:57    1519848

Jimbo, who said it was a lucky ball in? I believe you are confused here. I said the nature of the flick on brogan got meant there was an element of luck as to it dropping under or over the bar.

pdempsey, inept at defending? Both players defended excellently after this, and cafferkey is the best fb in the country. Couldnt resist throwing dillon under the bus again eh? You should get over your tribalism. Dillon is a top class player.

seany, I dont buy a couple of parts to that point and would consider them a bit flakey. Re brogan et al consistantly performing and thus being considered marquee, brogan had been anything but consistant all year and was hauled off in almost every game. He was worse last year, yet was still considered a marquee forward. That totally contradicts your explanation. Plain and simple.
Re the brogan goal, it isnt debatable, he made a mistake coming off his line. Now he could have got away with the mistake in judgement had he or his defender got something on the ball. However, he would be getting out of jail as the correct move for him was to stay at home in that instance.
Finally, yes of course brogan was lucky that his opponent made an error, how can he not be? It isnt as if it was brogan's skill that caused the error, which would be different. Had hennelly done what he should have, the ball would have dropped into his hands. Brogan had no influence in that not happening, therefore he was lucky.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/12/2013 16:37:47    1519869

Master

I agree that there was luck involved in the keeper making an error. However idisagree with you that, as you said, his finish could've as easily gone over the bar as drop into the net. It went into the net because that's where he put it. That was the skill. Making sure his flick went goal bound, not over the bar.

It's the same as me saying that Moran was also lucky as his shot might have easily gone wide instead of in. It couldn't of unless he didn't execute his finish correctly.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13796 - 02/12/2013 16:47:23    1519874

And the thread has turning into a debate on this years final....who seen that coming?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11550 - 02/12/2013 16:48:46    1519875

Move on please

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 02/12/2013 16:52:09    1519877

MesAmis
I agree that there was luck involved in the keeper making an error. However idisagree with you that, as you said, his finish could've as easily gone over the bar as drop into the net. It went into the net because that's where he put it. That was the skill. Making sure his flick went goal bound, not over the bar.
It's the same as me saying that Moran was also lucky as his shot might have easily gone wide instead of in. It couldn't of unless he didn't execute his finish correctly.

If brogan had had more control of the ball then I would agree with you. However, he didnt, he just helped it on and got it on target. I dont believe he, or anyone else for that matter can control the way a ball hops in a situation like that. I mean it was a whisker underneath, if he had control of it then why put it up high at all? Moran on the other hand had the ball in his control, shot for a goal into the bottom corner and scored a goal into the bottom corner. There is clearly a difference there. Anyway, it probably isnt really that important, my point was about the contributions that 'marquee forwards' give in finals compared to forwards who havent been labelled with the moniker - the answer is there is nothing in the difference, thus this thing about requiring 'marquee forwards' isnt accurate.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/12/2013 17:01:00    1519880

The Master

We can agree to disagree over that slight difference of interpretation. I agree that Mayo don't need a so called marque forward. The forwards they have are capable of taking anyone on. They just need consistency in the biggest game of all. Mayo need these players to do what they can do but when Mayo's need is greatest.

It applies all across the pitch and management too imo. It's the inches they need now from what I see.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13796 - 02/12/2013 17:15:37    1519890

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 9627

seany, I dont buy a couple of parts to that point and would consider them a bit flakey. Re brogan et al consistantly performing and thus being considered marquee, brogan had been anything but consistant all year and was hauled off in almost every game. He was worse last year, yet was still considered a marquee forward. That totally contradicts your explanation. Plain and simple.
Re the brogan goal, it isnt debatable, he made a mistake coming off his line. Now he could have got away with the mistake in judgement had he or his defender got something on the ball. However, he would be getting out of jail as the correct move for him was to stay at home in that instance.
Finally, yes of course brogan was lucky that his opponent made an error, how can he not be? It isnt as if it was brogan's skill that caused the error, which would be different. Had hennelly done what he should have, the ball would have dropped into his hands. Brogan had no influence in that not happening, therefore he was lucky.

Your entitled to make any opinion you deem fit but i suggest you read peoples posts before you critique them! I suggested Brogan performed very well 'on big occasions', at no stage did i mention early championship or league form, even though he was having a stellar league before injury. In both Dublin's All Ireland wins Brogan was key in big games. He excelled in particular against Tyrone and Kerry in 11, and excelled against Kerry and Mayo in 13. He had effective days against Donegal in 11 winning and converting most of our frees that day but in the interest of consistency i acknowledge he along with the rest of the Dublin squad had bad days in 12.

I also don't agree with your assertion that Hennelly made an error coming off his line. Hennelly was not to know what kind of contact Brogan could of got. Had he got a strong fist on it the Mayo keeper would of struggled to make a save from such close distance. The keeper made a decision based on his experience, his error was getting nothing on the ball once his decision was made. I think every keeper will tell you that if you leave your line you must clear the ball.

Finally, its quite simple why Brogan wasn't lucky. Luck is a random process, a lottery so to speak with no predictable outcome. There is nothing random, or more importantly, there should be nothing random about a keepers decision making. Brogan was opportunisitic and although he benefit from a goalkeeping error there was no luck involved on his part. Once Hennelly committed a goal was a likley scenario if Brogan got to the ball first!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 02/12/2013 17:37:50    1519903

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make also. It isnt just about mayo either, as yewtree seems to think, it applies across the board. The name of the game is winning, how you do it doesnt matter, when it is in the spirit fo fair play of course. Come the final whistle and you are ahead, that is what is important, how many forwards you have in your team that some commentator decided to label as 'marquee' doesnt really matter. We have seen a lot of sweeping statements proved wrong in the gaa in the past, this is just another one.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/12/2013 17:38:45    1519904

I think you are all trying to say Mayo didnt have the firepower, down to a lot of unlucky injuries/not match fit. Moran looked a shadow of himself, OConnor done ok despite a minor miracle to get him onto the pitch for the final. Dillons past it. And Higgins was there best threat up top but had to go back to try stop Dublins scoring threat.

Unfortunately for Mayo fans they need to unearth scoring forwards. Two years in a row their forwards didnt do the business. Lucky or unlucky.....Donegal and Dublins did. Hence the drought continues. But their Minors may have one or two that may be good enough. Just need to develop them. Takes time.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 02/12/2013 18:02:10    1519916

The fact that the Mayo keeper came off his line should no way take from Brogan's flick according to most Dub posters and I would agree but the fact that he flicked it and cafferkey got his half block on it does have a bearing on where the ball was directed but there is no mention of this.

peile (Mayo) - Posts: 180 - 02/12/2013 20:14:00    1519958

@themaster. Cafferkey and Robbie were inept at defending the ball in from Flynn. Dillon did turnover the ball just before Flynn gained possession, in addition to 3 or 4 similar turnovers in 1st half. Dillon was a top class footballer. Based on 2013 form he ain't anymore. How can you argue with my points above? Blinkered?

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 02/12/2013 20:37:15    1519965

Yes Mayo will be one of a handful of counties that can win the AI in 2014 and I think the bookies are right to have them second favourites behind the Dubs. I believe there is an excess of talent in the back, with 2/3 guys pushing for starting places in 2014. Midfield is up there with the best with the O'Shea Brothers and Barry Moran, and the two Ballintubber lads also pushing for inclusion in this area. The forwards is the area where we lag behind our nearest rivals but I can see Keith Higgins move to the forwards becoming permanent and lee keegan tried out in this area also. (This will be more to do with trying to accommodate emerging talent like Alan Feeney, Durkan and Shane Mc Hale in the backs than strenghtening the forwards). Also I think a injury free Cillian O Connor could make a hugh difference to Mayo.

westport (Mayo) - Posts: 63 - 14/12/2013 18:30:12    1523751

Yes Mayo will be one of a handful of counties that can win the AI in 2014 and I think the bookies are right to have them second favourites behind the Dubs. I believe there is an excess of talent in the back, with 2/3 guys pushing for starting places in 2014. Midfield is up there with the best with the O'Shea Brothers and Barry Moran, and the two Ballintubber lads also pushing for inclusion in this area. The forwards is the area where we lag behind our nearest rivals but I can see Keith Higgins move to the forwards becoming permanent and lee keegan tried out in this area also. (This will be more to do with trying to accommodate emerging talent like Alan Feeney, Durkan and Shane Mc Hale in the backs than strenghtening the forwards). Also I think a injury free Cillian O Connor could make a hugh difference to Mayo.

westport (Mayo) - Posts: 63 - 14/12/2013 18:30:35    1523752

Tommy Conroy,Tom King, & Liam Irwin will be big additions next year along with the return of Ritchie Feeney

HandyMoran (Roscommon) - Posts: 327 - 14/12/2013 18:49:17    1523754

the return of Ritchie Feeney

????

beal (Mayo) - Posts: 1388 - 14/12/2013 19:26:05    1523766