The statement didnt back up what you said though jimbo. You are now basing your argument on this but it is a lie. It said the issue needs to be looked at. Nothing about funding the other teams. They could be looking at spiltting dublin also couldnt they? In fact that would be the more reasonable, and indeed likely of the two suggestions. Where are they going to get the 231 million for all the other counties? Furthermore if they are going to even it up, like you say, they are probably going to have to give far more than 7 million to each county, more like 20 million. That is the guts of 700 million. So you say that is what the gaa are suggesting is it? Any fool can see that this is neither what they are suggesting, nor is it how the issue is going to be addressed.

So what does that leave jimbo? The point about some teams never going to match others is fair, but what does that mean in terms of action? Fund some teams? Say tyrone, donegal, mayo, cork and kerry? That would never come to pass. Any fairminded person can see this so please, stop wasting all our time by suggesting that this is what they are planning. It obviously isnt.

So if they are trying to bring teams closer together in terms of competition, but dont have the resources to improve the teams at the bottom, what options does that leave? Bring the teams out in front back down maybe?

Also this talk of the dubin brand is so utterly shortsighted. Look at american football. Where the poor sides get brought into contention the following year. Look how many brands they have because of it. Surely if we had 5-6 very good brands instead of 1 excellent one, the gaa would actually be better off?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 12:38:09    1508059

jayp, you are trying to justify taxpayers money being spent on the gaa in dublin by saying you pay taxes. It doesnt seem to occur to you that 3/4 of the taxpayers in the country are not from dublin... That isnt a valid point, it is a ridiculous one. No point stands up on this logic.

Similarly, you talk about participation levels in dublin etc etc. Again, it doesnt occur to you that every county needs to get people to participate. They do it better than dublin do it. That is a dublin specific problem, not a national one. The rest of the country shouldnt have to foot the bill because you lads cant get people to play the games. Just like in kerry with hurling or kilkenny with football. Now by all means, work to get people playing, but do it off your own bat, like everyone else had to. Why do we have to pay for you lads to do the very thing that we had to work at to be successful? I read one post where it said, 'ah it isnt the money, it is the work that guys put in after getting the money'. How out of touch with reality is that? Other counties would be only too happy to put in that work given the opportunity, they are crying out to do it. You lads want a pat on the back for it.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 12:58:55    1508070

Would love to know what tactics the Munster would have used to stop Kerry in the 70s and 80s , setting himself as a Brand Master , how did the GAA thrive without his level of expertise for over 100 years , love that in most recent posts hes used Bertie and American Football to back up his argument , should really be with sachi and sachi .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 01/11/2013 13:01:40    1508071

Again man.... why are you wasting so much time on Hoganstand?

Who are you trying to convince?

This is obviously something that you care an awful lot about - I find that to be quite admirable

I mean you've been on a mission for many many months on here - the same message - different threads

But lets be very honest... because it's all there in black and while

You haven't had a great reaction from very many posters whatsoever

Very few have backed any of your proposals.

You'd think over the prolonged time frame that we're talking about here...

That you would have possibly gained a little more positive reaction to your agenda / mission / campaign

In fact if it wasn't for Dubs responding... you'd be getting tumble weeds... zippo.

I don't have the answers man... I cant benefit you in anyway

I see no logic in your current stance - you obviously have a deep passion for this topic

Spending what must total many hours on here talking about this subject

Now...

Are you just all mouth or a man/woman of your convictions?

I don't see the point in constantly bringing this up on Hoganstand

There simply is no reward for your massive efforts.

You have certain ideas... to date I don't see any evidence whatsoever to suggest that the GAA are in anyway in line with any of your opinions

They don't agree with your stance about splitting Dublin - they released as statement leaving that very much up to the Dublin GAA

They don't agree with your idea of fairness. That's evident in the latest statement.

Thus I would suggest directing your obvious vigor and energy towards them in the hope of actually being able to have any sort of impact on this topic.

It only makes sense to direct questions at them. I simply don't have the answers for you...

I don't think this is the right platform for your campaign.

It might be the easiest thing for you to do... but with someone with such an obvious passion... You're just wasting your time.



That's the last I'll say on this subject.

Because I've addressed everything that I can... obviously that's not good enough.

I simply wont waste anymore of my time on this subject.

I hope you can respect that.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 01/11/2013 13:12:32    1508073

Damothedub, you dont seem to understand the basis of fair competition. Kerry in the 70s developed, off their own bat, a group of hugely talented players. No advantages, no handouts. Fair enough, best of luck to them or whoever else does it that way, dublin included. What part of that dont you understand?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 13:18:25    1508075

jimbo, this is a gaa forum to debate gaa issues. That is why I am commenting on it here, the same as any issue that gets talked about. You were commenting on it too were you not? You made a point about the gaa being behind your stance - they werent they actually never suggested any solution, just indicated a problem. Now when you are running out of road we get this 'why comment on it'? Why comment on anything jimbo? I am actually trying to debate this issue. what would be the best solution, how could things help it, what would make it worse etc etc. We cant get that far becuase you lads are hell bent on denying the thing even exists. I find it a really childish response.

This crap about nobody agreeing, well lets look at that. The only guys posting are myself and 3 dubs. How many turkeys vote for christmas?

This is actually a very good topic with lots of room for debate, if you lads would just stop blankly denying everything so much. As you say, nothing is going to be resolved on here, so why the blanket denials? Of course they are getting special treatment, of course this is helping them, of course that is going to have an adverse affect on the all ireland series. Those things are as crystal clear for gods sake.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 13:28:09    1508079

Yawn @ TheMaster

Splitting Dublin is more reasonable because you think so! Ohhhhhh, sorry I didn't get that everybody is wrong besides you. Ignore everybody else and the sound arguments they confront you with.

Administrator ban him for a week or two! Seriously, or else get him some help.

Right.....Dublin got 7 million for a project because of issues relating to sports participation and socioeconomic conditions.... Not for the senior teams.

Mayo should be given a once off payment relative to your population and social conditions in your county. Right lets say Mayo get €500,000 on that basis. Mayo pay their Senior Teams Tab for making two all Ireland's in a row. Are Mayo now stronger!?

The answer is no.

Dublin are a success story, a self supporting county board who have long term plans and seek funding privately and from the state to support iniatives to gain a larger share of the hearts and minds of youth in the Capitol. Through this planning and structured approach they have gained success, that will be hopefully built on. In light of the realisation Dublin planned forward, used all resources at their disposal and despite a great many setbacks have started to reach goals set out many years ago, TheMaster thinks Dublin should be split in two.

Right, here's what's "unfair". Mayo are playing one code and spending vast sums of money supporting their top team. They did not see the light. Look Kerry are opening a centre of excellence, Tyrone already have!They are putting together a strategic plan to gain success. What's unfair on Mayo and their fans is your county's failure to see a change coming. Gone are the days when you could assume players would automatically play GAA. Science and Nutrition play a key role, and coaching is needed at all levels. What's unfair is Mayo's county board lack vision.

Dublin were down in the doldrums and came up with a plan. Their plan is working and they are attracting footballers and hurlers, getting the best coaches and building on this. And no doubt they will review and tweak their plan accordingly. And this has let to a strengthening of Dublins Senior Panels ..... But not overnight.

See this is where I don't get TheMaster.... Go back to 2004..... Would your county have turned down 7 million quid!? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Was it fair, yes. I actually think it was. And I agree other counties should get that kinda help to develop games in their counties. But the 7 million "handout" was given, arock and myself told you why Dublin got this money and how they spent it. I also pointed out it will probably happen again as it was very successful and shows how government/sports organisations can work hand in hand trying to stop social issues.

Now you keep going back to the only fair thing to do is split Dublin!? On what basis!? Success......relatively little. Dominance.....hardly. Split Dublin in two because they had foresight and negotiate good deals. Notice all the money flowing into Mayo, nice having a native as Taoiseach. Is that fair!? No......but don't look a gift horse in the mouth. He won't always be Taoiseach, make hay while the sun shines.

I just don't get TheMaster...... Notions of grandeur and delusional comments. If you don't like Dublin just say "I don't like Dublin".

This meandering through post after post of nonsense you write, where you say the same thing despite people pointing out flaws to your arguments is just silly.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 13:47:48    1508086

Splitting Dublin in two seems to be the fairest thing to do according to you. No Dublin poster thinks its fair. Ask any GAA player outside Dublin......there's nothing like beating Dublin in Croke Park. Do they want to beat North Dublin!? Your argument falls down there as you presume two Dublin teams would generate more income and be a great rivalry. Dublin already have great rivalries, we call them Meath and Kerry! And generate income....Dublin supporters don't want diluted Dublin teams, we want one strong Dublin team. And your suggestion that breaking Dublin up will come in the foreseeable future is Hogwash! There's no appetite for it in Dublin and certainly not in the GAA hierarchy. As I already said......Dublin in its current form pulling money in is the cash cow of the GAA. They aren't gonna sacrifice that calf. So keep posting that repetitive nonsense! It's NOT gonna happen!

Yeah Dublin did have an unfair advantage, they had people with brains on their side who seen the light and planned accordingly. Terribly unfair that!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 13:48:17    1508088

Mayo having so much more money that other Connaught teams doesn't effect the All Ireland Series at all?

Kerry not taking hurling seriously doesn't either?

The Cats only hurling has no effect does it?

So Dublin are the big bad Giant.....crushing all around them!?

Give us a break TheMaster.

You are going nowhere with this. Yes I am ok with using taxpayers money.....that's my opinion. I think it could be used in Leitrim too. There's nothing wrong with that is there!?

I've pointed out your whole basis for arguing is completely flawed.

Reading your posts repeatedly you say the same thing......and because you say so is your only response. Do Turkeys vote for Christmas, of course they don't..... They haven't developed the intelligence of the human mind and can't talk. Kinda like Dublin posters or the GAA hierarchy who know nothing compared to you!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 14:00:45    1508098

JayP
Yawn @ TheMaster
Splitting Dublin is more reasonable because you think so! Ohhhhhh, sorry I didn't get that everybody is wrong besides you. Ignore everybody else and the sound arguments they confront you with.

What sound argument? I have gone into, in detail the other options available, and displayed why they are not feasible. If you disagree, then by all means point out why. If you cannot then how can you claim that I am wrong?

As for 'teams loving to beat dublin in croke park', what connection does that have to the ethos of fair play? If anything it indicates that it is globally accepted that dublin get a soft run.

Your points are all over the place. Address the points I have made and explain why you believe them to be wrong. I dont think hat I am asking all that much of you to do that. You say amalgamation is a better possibility, fair enough, go into the points I provided on that subject and debate them. Let's hear you...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 14:23:17    1508116

You are going nowhere with this. Yes I am ok with using taxpayers money.....that's my opinion. I think it could be used in Leitrim too. There's nothing wrong with that is there!?

Surely if it is being used, then it should be used everywhere equally, or for an emergency of some sort? How can you suggest it is fair to just give it to one team so they can be the best team?


I've pointed out your whole basis for arguing is completely flawed.

Do you seriously think you have done this? You have come nowhere close to doing this. Seriously, you havent. Id have no issue if you took on my points and showed them to be flawed (like I have done with yours in the above for example). You havent though, you have made convaluted points about kerry generating great football teams off their own bat being the same as dublin buying success, with taxpayers money. They couldnt be more different if you tried.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 14:30:53    1508117

@TheMaster

I think amalgamation is as feasible an idea as splitting Dublin. I don't like either option. I think amalgation is certainly an easier route than splitting Dublin as you'd need way more concensus which just isn't there at hierarchy level and supporter level.

My points aren't all over the place. You refuse to accept them, which I'm fine with. But anybody who has spoke on the issue has not supported you, mainly because splitting Dublin up to make things fairer just doesn't add up. Firstly Dublin aren't dominant and secondly there has to be an appetite for it.

As I posted in detail on, handouts by the government to help develop sport which in turn help society Im in favour of. In fact I think they need to do it more but strictly supervise it so county boards don't filter money directly to their elite teams.

What would you do to address Mayos unfair advantage in Connaught?

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 14:37:30    1508124

I think amalgamation is as feasible an idea as splitting Dublin. I don't like either option. I think amalgation is certainly an easier route than splitting Dublin as you'd need way more concensus which just isn't there at hierarchy level and supporter level.

More consensus? I dont follow you.

Address the points I made on this subject earlier and point out where they are wrong. Also, contrast them to the upsides and downsides of splitting dublin, as I have done.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 14:54:28    1508134

I don't know of any Dublin player being paid to play football The Master. I do know of at least one of your own county man. Might be worth a cost/benefit analysis mind you :-)

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 01/11/2013 14:56:10    1508135

Firstly Dublin aren't dominant and secondly there has to be an appetite for it.

Yes they are. They have become a huge force at underage via highly developed teams, and have won 2 of the last 3 all irelands. What do you mean there has to be an appetite for it, within dublin is it? No there doesnt. They will never want it to happen. That doesnt mean it shouldnt happen though. A bank robber doesnt want to get caught. He wants to get away with the cash, does that mean he should?
Also, using all ireland wins alone as a metric is purposely over-simplistic. It isnt a question of simply who has won sam.


As I posted in detail on, handouts by the government to help develop sport which in turn help society Im in favour of. In fact I think they need to do it more but strictly supervise it so county boards don't filter money directly to their elite teams.

Yes but how about handouts to help 1 team over the others? They are very different things. Help everyone equally for the good of the game - great. Help one team so that they can get better than everyone else - garbage.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 15:00:38    1508139

hurlingdub
I don't know of any Dublin player being paid to play football The Master. I do know of at least one of your own county man. Might be worth a cost/benefit analysis mind you :-)

Who?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 01/11/2013 15:01:33    1508140

He's based in Dublin. Open secret but I'm not going to name him. I'd say you have a fair idea.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 01/11/2013 15:05:30    1508141

See, I have a problem with the word equally getting used.

Equity is the word that should be used.

I'll give you an example, Free Third Level fees getting introduced gave people who didn't have money a chance to go to third level. Everybody got in for free......even those who had the money to pay. All that done was create imbalance one step back, as all those who could afford third level began sending their kids to private second level schools, which actually made it harder for the poorer kids as these grind schools appeared and those with money could go to schools with smaller class sizes and enhancing their ability to get points. Everything being equal wasn't fair. But it seemed fair, and kept the status quo where only people from certain backgrounds could get certain courses. What should have happened was targeting poorer areas and giving free passes to third level, to create an even playing field. Equity over equality.

If Croke Park had 32 million, to equally give out to 32 counties a million would that be fair. Yeah they all got an equal sum. But the dual counties are shortchanged straight away? Being a dual county doubles your expenses straight away. Is your county scarcely populated, if it is you have less expenses. If it isn't you have more expenses. Are there further problems, demographics that will eat the one million away quickly!? So if you have a big population, strange demographics, varied socioeconomic regions and compete in two codes your one million will disappear really fast.

So was it fair giving all counties one million....an equal amount of money. Or should the money be divided equitably and targeted depending on numerous factors?

So equality or equity. People can decide themselves. Notice I named no counties. I'll leave it with people....

Fair .....it depends on your description of fair. Equality has never equalled fairness.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 15:05:32    1508142

Go back to my posts up the page.....clearly outlines the reasons for success. Dominant? Im not sure about that, Kilkenny and Kerry were dominating hurling and football and nobody cared. Dublin get their shit together after years out in the wilderness and that's a bad thing? Didn't hear Dublin complaining that the Cats were too strong. Just developed a plan and waited for it to come to fruition.

Maybe other counties could do the same. Splitting Dublin Is the answer?! When Kilkenny were destroying everyone the line that was peddled was its up to everyone else to catch up. Dublin win and your suggestion is to gut them.

Splitting Dublin - upside - removes the emphasis on other teams catching up, like everyone had to do with Kilkenny.

Splitting Dublin - downside - fans won't buy into it, will cost a fortune and destroy a county and tradition spanning many years.

When I put it like that......yay lets split Dublin

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/11/2013 15:17:44    1508149

Don't know why you bother to engage Jay P. It is a stupid argument and in this case just more sour grapes and excuses for the 15 men of Mayo not being able to beat the 15 men of Dublin.

Unless of course I missed something and Dublin had more players on the pitch or were shooting into a bigger goal or something?

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 01/11/2013 15:28:49    1508152