Mancirish
County: UK
Posts: 1881

1479248
Thats great then Joxer... no work needed at the back for the Dubs. Thats just fine by me....
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Did I say that? I suppose you'll see what you want to see. Fair play to ye!

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 10/09/2013 18:34:17    1479496

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 8692

1478997
Ah will you give over seanie_boy. The cooper incident should have been a red, but it was an accident - he tried to play the ball.

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You've changed your tune. So now you are saying that a player should be sent off for an accidental collision with another? Granted Cooper had his back to Gooch and eyes on the ball so there was no intent but you are either in the 'it was an accident therefore no card' camp or the 'it was intentional therefore red card' camp. You can't say that it was an accident therefore it's a red card. How many accidental collisions are there in a game? It would be a 5 a-side after 70 minutes using your logic.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 10/09/2013 18:47:59    1479505

The Master
They approach the game in general in a cynical manner. It doesnt matter if that is a harte thing or a tyrone in general thing - harte's team do it more than others,

You are very forceful on this. Is this a perception or can you back this up with hard statistical facts. Talk is cheap and anyone can make unfounded claims but providing evidence to support their claims is another matter. I have yet to see the facts which justify these claims. I hope you are ready to start logging how many cynical and off the ball fouls occur in the final. In the meantime why don't you review both semi-finals and layout your facts and figures.

Buaiteoir (Tyrone) - Posts: 15 - 10/09/2013 21:11:54    1479583

joxer, it was a reckless attempt to hack the ball away that denied a goalscoring opportunity. Accidental maybe, but it still deserves a card - which would have been his 2nd yellow.



Buaiteoir
You are very forceful on this. Is this a perception or can you back this up with hard statistical facts. Talk is cheap and anyone can make unfounded claims but providing evidence to support their claims is another matter. I have yet to see the facts which justify these claims. I hope you are ready to start logging how many cynical and off the ball fouls occur in the final. In the meantime why don't you review both semi-finals and layout your facts and figures.

You see, this is the exact retoric that mickey harte uses. You know they are more cynical, I know and so does everyone. If a team hauls guys down as a group, dive to win fouls, and try to get guys sent off en mass, how can that be a perception? What is being 'perceived' there? Talk is cheap indeed. It is like someone saying as a defence, well you dont know what I was trying to do because you dont know what I was thinking... How do you know gormley and penrose were trying to get mone to react and thuse one of the opponents best players sent off? You cant prove it for sure. Utter bull in other words. We have eyes and a brain, and so can see exactly what was happening, as could mickey harte, and indeed yourself.
It is like saying that when someone says the irish tema play poor football, you ask is that a perception... No, its actually just the truth mate, and anyone making superfluous points about perception as a defence, generally are just trying to muddy the waters to suit themselves - cue mickey harte.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 11/09/2013 10:20:37    1479722

Themaster
You are still pontificating about this but until you your lay out evidence to back up your allegations nobody can take you seriously. You throw out incidents about fouls Tyrone players have committed while ignoring the fouls committed by other teams. Monaghan, like Mayo are no angels either. Neither is Dublin, Kerry or any other successful team out there. Everyteam will commit fouls, cynical or "clean" in order to prevent the opposing team scoring, same as every other sport. That is life. Get over it.

Tyrone are no worse than any other county and if you believe otherwise put your hard statistics to support your claim in black and white. Your refusal to do this only reinforces the myth you are trying to espouse. A myth generated by the likes of Joe Brolly and Pat Spillane who have a biased attitude to Tyrone due to county rivalry. Instead of writing nonsense get out your calculator and start doing your sums and then come back with your figures to prove that Tyrone are waging a savage and brutal war on the pitch against poor innocent opposition teams.

Buaiteoir (Tyrone) - Posts: 15 - 11/09/2013 12:29:25    1479894

the Master - the only thing you say that is making any sense is "talk is cheap"
Tyrone are no more cynical than any of the other successful counties at the moment.
Their system of play is different but that's another argument.
G'luck

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 11/09/2013 13:11:17    1479935

Buaiteoir, I never said other teams were angels, I said tyrone were the worst offenders. Other teams do some of it, tyrone do far more of it. You ask me to prove it. Can you prove it wrong? That works both ways and this isnt a court of law. If I have to prove a stance then so do you. The common belief is that tyrone are the most cynical team around. If you want to change that belief then prove it. Also, a foul count proves nothing, since part of tyrone's gameplan is to win fouls that are not actually fouls. They do this because they lack scoring forwards, and so look to get their free-taker into a scoring position. Now most teams do the honest thing and try to train their forwards to score from these positions, but instead tyrone dive to win a free and let the guy who can shoot take it. That sums up the tyrone ethos of cynical play over honesty of effort. Dont get me wrong, im not trying to knock it, Im just stating the difference. I suppose you will ask can I prove they do this. Actually I can - watch their games.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 11/09/2013 13:40:38    1479979

They do this because they lack scoring forwards

Darren McCurry, Steven O'Neill and Conor McAliskey probably might disagree with that. Matty Donnelly is also well able to take a score. I think you refer to Joe McMahon as the forward who lacks a score, I don't agree with him as sweeper myself.

GetOverTheBar (Tyrone) - Posts: 1388 - 11/09/2013 13:48:27    1479996

TheMaster

Every statement you make gets more and more incoherent. Just exactly want do you teach anyway or what are you a master of.

You are now saying that anyone can make a wild sweeping statement and then it is up to everybody else to prove it wrong. That is a nonsense. If you are going to put forward a theory then you should be prepared to back it up with facts and defend your position .

You don't happen to write for the gutter press do you because this is exactly what they do.

Buaiteoir (Tyrone) - Posts: 15 - 11/09/2013 16:00:36    1480180

Now most teams do the honest thing and try to train their forwards to score from these positions, but instead tyrone dive to win a free and let the guy who can shoot take it.

That's a load of nonsense. Seriously, you've lost me completely with that. Funny thing is, we haven't even had a top free taker since Canavan retired EIGHT YEARS AGO. If anything it's something we've had to compensate for - in 2008 Tyrone barely seemed to score a free all year lol - scored 1 point from a free against Dublin in the quarter-final and 1 from a free against Kerry in the final that year. Pretty good statistics for such a negative, cynical team.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 11/09/2013 17:42:56    1480257

Classic example of a lad trying to win soft frees was when Aidan O' Shea fell on the ground holding his face after getting a wee nudge from Packie Mc Connell in this years all Ireland semi.Not only was he lookin the soft free but to also get the other player in trouble.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 12/09/2013 08:45:32    1480465

Yes that is true seanie_boy. Although, being the 3rd man in, mcconnell should have been punished anyway. However, the argument is not 'no other team has done anything cynical ever', so pointing out one off incidents doesnt change the fact that the tyrone team use cynicism as an ethos. What you need to do is point out another team who systematically look to cheat the rules like tyrone do. The fact is you cant, because there is none. Look Im not knocking them, that is what they do and fair enough. Im merely pointing out the difference.

MichaelO, you dont have to have a top class free taker, just a free taker who is better than the other around him. Why would you only do it with a top class free taker, as opposed to a good free taker? Surely he is still a better option than a forward who cant shoot as well as he can? Look, if I am wrong then you explain to me why tyrone lads blatently dive when they get into scoring distance in every game they play. If you can offer a more reasonable explanation for this then fair enough. Let's hear it.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 12/09/2013 10:40:48    1480534

seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2848

1480465 Classic example of a lad trying to win soft frees was when Aidan O' Shea fell on the ground holding his face after getting a wee nudge from Packie Mc Connell in this years all Ireland semi.Not only was he lookin the soft free but to also get the other player in trouble.

In fairness Seanie Mayo have been at that carry on for years. So its unfair to single out just Aidan O Shea.....there all at it.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 12/09/2013 10:58:50    1480550

GetOverTheBar
County: Tyrone
Posts: 739

1479996 They do this because they lack scoring forwards

Darren McCurry, Steven O'Neill and Conor McAliskey probably might disagree with that. Matty Donnelly is also well able to take a score. I think you refer to Joe McMahon as the forward who lacks a score, I don't agree with him as sweeper myself.

I also think Kyle Coney has the potential to be a cracking forward.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 12/09/2013 11:15:24    1480565

ConnollyDub
County: Dublin
Posts: 1339

1480550
seanie_boy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 2848

1480465 Classic example of a lad trying to win soft frees was when Aidan O' Shea fell on the ground holding his face after getting a wee nudge from Packie Mc Connell in this years all Ireland semi.Not only was he lookin the soft free but to also get the other player in trouble.

In fairness Seanie Mayo have been at that carry on for years. So its unfair to single out just Aidan O Shea.....there all at it.
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shushhhhh now ConnollyDub, we don't say things like that around here, its the common perception that only Tyrone would engage in such shenannigans, don't you go upsetting the apple cart so close to AI final day too!

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 12/09/2013 11:20:22    1480572

shushhhhh now ConnollyDub, we don't say things like that around here, its the common perception that only Tyrone would engage in such shenannigans, don't you go upsetting the apple cart so close to AI final day too!

No it isnt. It is a 'common perception' that tyrone do it far more than anyone else. For some reason, nobody from tyrone takes on this point. Instead they argue that other teams do it. Nobody is saying they dont. Tyrone do it far more is the point.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 12/09/2013 11:37:23    1480581

No it isnt. It is a 'common perception' that tyrone do it far more than anyone else. For some reason, nobody from tyrone takes on this point. Instead they argue that other teams do it. Nobody is saying they dont. Tyrone do it far more is the point.

A farcical statement if ever there was one. Firstly 'common perception' is what it is a 'common perception' which is very different from the truth. This perception is media and punditry peddled. 'tyrone do it far more than anyone else' should read the media highlight it more when tyrone do it, which is again is far off the truth of 'tyrone do it far more than anyone else'. What surprises me most is that the poster appears to have a great interest in gaelic games but appears incapable of being able to differentiate between media generated perceptions and the truth.

A little more individual thought on the subject please. If you believe it to be the truth then subjectively look at and tell us how 'Tyrone do it more than anyone else' v Kerry or Dublin or Mayo or Donegal etc. Media truths can be very dangerous when you are dealing with a naive people or those incapable of individual thought.

Skillful_Bill (Tyrone) - Posts: 102 - 12/09/2013 12:17:10    1480625

The big lesson in all of this is that partition has worked! I worked in Dublin for 15 years and in 04 I remember overhearing 2 management consultants from Leinster, not people who were much into GAA in the first place, expressing how great it was that "Sam was back over the border again". That is, they didn't care who won provided it wasn't one of themuns from up there.
The Dublin Kerry game was a cracking good game. That's not in dispute. Harte spent much of his article about it waxing lyrical about the quality of the play and the entertainment on offer.
The only discussion point is whether this enjoyable game of football deserves to be hailed as the "greatest game ever", or thereabouts. There's a big difference between saying a game was a good game and saying "it's the greatest game I've ever seen or will ever see", as one delirious Dublin bloke (bless him) writing into the Irish Times said.
GAA commentators , even usually-sensible ones, seem to turn into 'No Direction' fans when it comes to evaluating a Dublin-Kerry game.
It seems to be that a game can only be a classic if it involves Kerry and/or Dublin and if the non-Ulster team wins.
Surely, a game can only be called "great" "epic" "for the ages" etc if teams are evenly matched, scores are close and skill levels are high, not just in the forwards, but *all over the pitch*. The forward play was good, especially James O'Donoghue and Dean Rock, but it's difficult to know how good it was in absolute terms, given that so much of the defending was of the schoolboy variety. At this level, leaking 3 goals in the opening period and leaking 2 goals in the closing minutes is inexcusable. Equally, while Gooch gave a masterclass in vision and quick thinking and as usual didn't put a foot wrong, for most of the game, he wasn't properly marked - Brennan is too slow for a man-to-man marking job.
We'll say nothing about the possible eye-gouge attempt, the 'cynical' take down of the Gooch and various other 'cynical' take downs by Kerry, as apparently they're not to be spoken of. None of those incidents really matter a rap, but the point is that if a Tyrone man did any of them, there's national uproar. Pat and Joe's double standards are pretty obvious by this stage. They've in my view lost the right to be called "commentators"; they're mere propagandists at this stage. Their minds are made up in advance and they select the incidents that suit their prejudices.
The 2004 league match between Galway and Tyrone, the 2005 Dublin-Tyrone games, the 2005 Armagh-Tyrone game and the 2005 and 2008 finals had every bit as much excitement and closeness as the recent semi-final, and you had a better spread of quality play, both in attack and in defence. Let's not even speak of the time Tyrone stuck three goals past Dublin in 2008, as Tyrone also gave a master class in defending on that day, so the game was never close, though that's hardly Tyrone's fault.
The recent Dublin Kerry game matched those games for excitement but didn't quite 100% match those games in terms of quality, yet somehow is being elevated above them in the pecking order of classic games. Yes, it was an exciting and entertaining game, but perhaps people are confusing excitement with the last 10% in quality. Of course, other than the Galway league game, Dublin and Kerry lost those other games and an all-Northern game doesn't count anyway, so none of those can be "classics", at least according to the RTÉ GAA propaganda definition of the term.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 12/09/2013 12:52:39    1480663

Tyrone posters have gone into overdrive since this match. Are ye that starved for attention?

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 12/09/2013 13:27:16    1480700

I also think Kyle Coney has the potential to be a cracking forward.

He hasn't really delivered in senior colours, but the expectation on him coupled with a few nasty injuries has held him back seriously.

He still has time to step up and prove it though so lets hope for his sake that he stays injury free and gets a good run at.

GetOverTheBar (Tyrone) - Posts: 1388 - 12/09/2013 13:46:29    1480713