It has come to my attention this year more than any other that in hurling there is a massive need for ball winning half forwards. Consistently throughout this year I have seen on numerous county forums of people complaining of their county's lack of this type of player. Tipperary people say it all the time that if only they had another ball winner in their half forward line they would dominate, likewise with Clare Offaly, Cork, Galway, Wexford, Limerick its the one addition everyone wants to make to their starting 15. When people discuss a teams strengths and weaknesses the ball winning half forward is always mentioned. People crave to have someone like Pa Cronin, Seamus Prendergast, John Conlon, Eoin Larkin, TJ Reid or Conal Keaney. It really is fascinating; is it a dieing breed or is it just more important now than what it used to be. It just goes to show that primary possession is the key to success and no fancy game plans will change that fact.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 08/07/2013 17:14:35    1426870

Interesting topic hurlingexpert.

I think it is more recent thing. There is a lot more emphasis now on players winning the ball cleanly first time. In the past players might have been expect just to keep the ball moving into the full forward line or stop the half backs clearly winning possession. In the 70s Cork won a few All-Irelands with guys like Tim Crowley/Mick Malone who were good at the time but hardly as skillful as the players around today.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 08/07/2013 17:55:50    1426910

Is hurley not played with a sliotar?

rising1916 (Cavan) - Posts: 187 - 08/07/2013 18:50:30    1426960

Is hurley not played with a sliotar?

rising1916 (Cavan) - Posts: 187 - 08/07/2013 18:54:16    1426963

in fairness thats the first time all year keeney has done that.
our half forward line has been our weekest line,hogan and joyce must have won every aerial ball against us last week

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 08/07/2013 20:20:50    1427021

The battles at either end between the Half-Back and Half Forward usually determines the outcome of most games. So it follows if the half-back gets the better of the half-forward its a fairly ineffective forward line. I have been struck this year by the sheer power and strenght of the half-back lines and a lot of counties are playing with a sweeper making it even more difficult for the traditional Half-forward. One way to beat that type of defence is the way Conal Keaney did yesterday but that type of player is rare enough. So yeah maybe they are a dying breed.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4954 - 08/07/2013 21:25:09    1427102

It is great to see that the game still comes down to which side masters the basics, with winning ball in the air a crucial aspect of that. Even with sweepers hurling is fundamentally about man against man. Second half yesterday was epic contest.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 08/07/2013 21:35:47    1427120

Hill is actually right there. Our success in terms of getting scores against KK was our ability to isolate our inside forwards and deliver diagonal balls into space. We did stop doing that in the second half though for some reason! Against Galway it was more of a mix match between winning ball on around the 40-60 and getting adequate supply into Dotsy and Ryan. But regarding ball winning half forwards it has obvious importance, as every puckout is directed into this area. As Daly put it, there are certain plays that are crucial in games that require big players to win them, and these plays often decide who wins these games.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 09/07/2013 08:14:24    1427156

Very important area. Usually if half forwards get on top they obviously cause scoring chances but also limited the amount of ball going to the opposition forwards. Look at KK V Tipp. KK forwards may not have been at their best but the hassling that they did on the tipp backs caused a poor supply of high ball to the Tipp forwards. Years gone by for example a centre forward was a big strong physical man who was able to break the ball at the very least. Take for example KK's John Power or Tipps Declan Ryan. Cork seemed to change this in the 00's with their running style although still had players like N.McCarthy and T. McCarthy. Lot of coaching goes into what we do when we have the ball perhaps more needs to be done on winning it in the first place..

justsaying (Kildare) - Posts: 21 - 09/07/2013 08:51:11    1427167

It's a very interesting topic. Wexford have never managed to establish any consistency in the last 20 years really and it's because of 2 key players never being adequately replaced. Adrian Fenlon(one of the best ground hurlers of all time) and Martin Storey(exceptional ball winner) He alongside larry murphy meant fitzhenry had 2 targets both of whom could mix it with anybody. I actually think if you go through every single hurling county half forward line is where all the questions are asked. . . .I don't think any team has one that never lets them down. . .
Going through Wexford teams over the last number of years and from 1-9 we've had so much quality(darragh ryan,darren stamp,declan ruth) and inside line the same(the jacobs,mitch jordan,rory jacob) But if your lacking in a really could centre forward in particular your fighting a losing battle.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3701 - 09/07/2013 09:42:00    1427196

I think it has always been the case that hurling teams are built on a solid halfback line. Most opposition puckouts land here & most attacks are launched from here. Think of the great Clare halfback line 95-98, Offaly's around the same period, Galway's Finnerty/Keady/McInerney & Cork's O'Hailpín/Curran/Gardiner not to mention Kilkenny's Walsh/Hogan/JJ. If you could line out 3 forwards who can break even against any of those lines who'd be in with a chance!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 09/07/2013 10:53:17    1427261

The reason for most half forward lines struggling is aimless clearances by their defence and goalkeeper. The KK v Tipp game was a great example. Every Cummins puckout was directed as long as he could, straight down the throat of the KK half backs. For some reason the Tipp half forwards were all standing static when the ball was delivered. They hadn't a prayer. There was no puckout strategy at all. In Wexford we have a problem where our backs always want to drive the ball as far as they can. gives forwards little chance.

To prove the point, the Wexford team in 2004 had a puckout strategy and our half forwards (who were no world beaters) won tonnes of possession from Fitzhenry's outstanding deliveries. Likewise Cork under Donal O'Grady had excellent puckout strategies where Donal cusack in the goal picked out players moving towards space- the likes of Niall McCarthy were outstanding at this.

Long aimless puckouts while still asking the half forwards to "look for the ball" and stay goal side of their man? Brainless and doomed to failure.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 09/07/2013 11:16:14    1427293

half forward and half back lines are most important line on a hurling pitch.if you win the battle there,you'll probably win the game.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 09/07/2013 11:36:02    1427315

go easy on that half forward line ice. Lambert,Quigley,Carley were all in excellent form at that time and were well able to take on the KK half back line e.g 05 leinster final.

Your dead right on Cummins actually. He was dropping some of them on the 14 !! Those kind of balls really don't favor the forward. I think in some ways the attributes of forwards have changed a lot. The game has become so fast that you need to move the ball better. Liam Dunne has tried to take us back to our traditional style which clearly isn't working. It's grand to drop the odd one on the half forward line but by passing it against the best modern teams is clearly the winning formula.

Another poster mentioned forwards defending. This is something that so many teams take for granted and it's the sole reason we shook Dublin this year. When you don't have possession your defense starts with your corner forward and if you do that your immediately making things hard for yourselves.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3701 - 09/07/2013 12:28:00    1427359

the only way it seems that a team can make it without a "ball winner" is by playing a short or running game, which we know can be found out. Davy fitz has been trying to do it, but it didn't work against cork, he came under intense pressure from clare people to change to a "normal" method, but people didn't understand that we didn't have the players on the pitch to do it against cork. that's why peter duggan played against laois; he is fantastic in the air and is well able to score but davy didn't trust him at this level until now, when he realized that something had to be changed.
interestingly various managers have attempted to play half back players in the half forward line because they were known to be good in the air. this rarely works though as there is a big difference between coming towards the ball and batting it down or catching it while moving forward in contrast with having to catch the ball and turn and move the other direction

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1941 - 09/07/2013 13:16:59    1427414

hurlingexpert Nothing makes my blood boil more than managers putting half backs in the half forward line. It never works. I can only think of one or two examples ever having worked. It's much easier to go from being a half forward to being a half back.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 09/07/2013 14:20:15    1427487

Some good points there, lads. Didn't Tommy Walsh start his senior career as a wing forward? Hard to imagine him as a forward nowadays!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 09/07/2013 14:23:57    1427493

"People crave to have someone like Pa Cronin, Seamus Prendergast, John Conlon, Eoin Larkin, TJ Reid or Conal Keaney."

In all fairness, there are Cork people I know who don't crave to have Pa Cronin starting in the Cork team. Half forward is more than just catching the ball, you have to be able to do something with it when you win it. Richie Power and Shefflin are prime examples of good half forwards. When they realise their man is catching more ball than them they use the hurl and flick it down to themselves to run onto. Martin Comerford perfected this technique for KK during the years he was playing with them.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 09/07/2013 14:48:10    1427531

at some stage a hurling team is going to stop just landing the ball into the half forward line and work out a formula for hitting nice diagonal balls that negates the 'ball winning half back'

looking forward to seeing that happen

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1903 - 09/07/2013 15:40:42    1427595

Size isn't everything at all. People love having big lads. But I'd take the Offaly half forward line of Johnny Dooley, John Troy and Joe Dooley over any other one.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2581 - 09/07/2013 17:30:44    1427723